Lurker > Lopen

I think Kanz's change is probably fine though I think it'd be Recharge 4 with the wording as is (which would be the one I support as it's been nerfed a bit).
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I am sorry Johnbobb. If it makes you feel better you had me fooled at least.

I'd like to say your scumplay was good as a result of fooling me, but considering it fooled like no one else that's probably incorrect and it's more a problem with my play.
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I'm just saying Tom had a pretty good run in m4.

But Gravy being overly harsh to Tom in flavor wouldn't surprise me to the point where the claim is unbelievable I suppose.
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Okay well I guess I'm not familiar enough with Corrik's play. Honestly trdl did legit make sense to me as a cop which also factored in. He was pretty much the only guy in mercs to show scruples, choosing to forfeit an elimination match because he thought there were shady circumstances behind a win he had.
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Tom being a "mediocre player who kept signing up" sounds like m3 flavor more than m4 flavor. Given Kanzaris is on the scumteam and played in m3 I'm kinda suspicious of that one.

Also don't really like Ark cause pjbasis being in two but maybe all the vanillas are the turbo fodders as a theme-- do we have any other claimed vanillas or just these two + Death?
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MenuWars posted...

Hmmmm... looking at what's happened I'm guessing we should Mass at this point? Not sure why Corrik would be the obvious kill last night. Doesn't really matter too much if we get a result, Jaded apparently turning up scum also is great and fits with my day 2 reads.

That just leaves one more, maybe two, but having ulti as an indi calls balance into question. Making things way stickier, especially if Ben is a scanning role of some sort. That's a whole lot of town power right there. Like... kinda crazy amounts of it.

Doctor, thief, whatever RNJesus is, Eaed as poisoner is potentially anti power if it affects lynches but still power nonetheless, watcher, double voter, and whatever Bens saying. Means over 50 percent of town is a power role? I feel like we have one too many.

I assumed they would either kill or roleblock Corrik, either way. Mason recruiter is a great role and Kanzaris clearly telegraphed they thought him one-- but honestly I thought he was obvious even before then. Corrik should have been suspected of some sort of power to just go in on Kanzaris like that, and he was obvtown. I mean he later claimed he made it up, but I don't think Corrik would be quite so reckless.
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Stephanie is the only one who'd get F from me. Just to drive home how terrible she is she needs to be on an island. She constantly buries the talent, never gets any comeuppance. Just by far the worst part of the show right now.
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This title is much better than the non-obvious ones. The non-obvious ones are generally non-obvious for a reason, no offense.
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MZero11 posted...

I do think it's pretty unlikely that all three are scum... but if I let Death get away with that slip and he ends up being scum I'm going to kick myself in the balls. I'm pretty torn tbh

I felt the same way MZero. I seriously went back and reread my result PM once (which is stupid cause it was you know, one line)-- Johnbobb being scum just didn't line up with how I felt the game was.

Ultimately the biggest reason I think Death is town, even above some SURELY NOT ALL 3 COULD BE SCUM, is that scum usually has the most suspicious one send in the kill, and I'd like to think that with how yesterday went that Death would be sent over Johnbobb, since if you just look at votes sacrificing a scum for scum wouldn't make much sense-- Johnbobb in some ways would be "cleared." There are ways to make it make sense if you stretch, but Death would easily be looking worse I think.

And now I'm sad that eddv is not a role in this game, which frankly played hard into me buying the claim. Eddv survived so long in mercs, that bulletproof was so fitting, and I felt Eddv had to be in the game! What kinda friend are you gravy I mean really.
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On the other end of the spectrum I've vaguely shot for 3 5* and got all 3, but no other 5*.

Two of which, Gilgamesh and Fryveia, off a mere 10-15 draws each. (I wasn't actually going to go that hard for Freyvia but I had the itch for that awesome sword)

To be fair I did half want Emperor and failed him, but I only gave that banner dailies. No real draws. If he ever is featured again after I get Tidus he will be priority one, though.
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MZero had latched onto you all day. I think regardless of how you feel about his argument he shouldn't come off as worse to you.

I personally think MZero's playstyle would be extremely difficult for scum to replicate convincingly so I have him pretty firmly as town in my book. As for Oddity, I've lightly suspected him all game but there have always been more suspicious folk. This is mostly coloring from the first two hours of the game at this point though, so I haven't really zoned in on anything he's done in say, day 2-- it'll be something I do later

Also I think staying on Death had some use until late as if everyone had stayed firm on Death we could've had a tie-- and there was no guarantee I wouldn't jump back to Death. IGCD in particular looks particularly scummy for that reason. Waited until exactly the final moment to jump off.
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Oh also keep in mind IGCD had rested on Death the longest, and hadn't jumped off him till Kanzaris till pretty late.
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My top scumspects after last night, other than Johnbobb who I cheated to get.

IGCD - as I said in my summary he was kinda moving around randomly. Knowing it was at least 2 scum at risk and his vote for Death, who is likely town, had flimsy reasoning of "will generate the most information," it feels like he's probably scum.

Jaded_Eye - I kinda see the logic behind this. I feel like not even having addressed the Johnbobb claim that everyone hated, saying he was kinda on the fence, but ultimately voting Death, seems suspicious, but I also feel like it can easily be explained by the guy not reading the game closely

and you... (Leo3L, for reasons stated)
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You called him scum, but I never felt like you pushed him all that hard. Like you should've been the Corrik of yesterday. Especially as you started to theorize that "I think Johnbobb is just dumb town and Lopen is so set he's town to make himself look better." It just doesn't line up-- if you have any doubts whatsoever bobb isn't autoscum, you vote Kanzaris. That's just the right play for a town player who 100% knew Kanz was lying there.
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benjamin3740 posted...

I think you're on to something, yes. The jump to Kanz should be seen as a town tell for him primarily, but it's a good theory that he did it just to look better and didn't expect a bunch of people to jump over. Because who could have predicted that?

As for this

Expecting Kanzaris to have a chance to work is not that strange. I mean at that point I'd seen the writing on the wall for Johnbobb. It felt like death was just going to get as many votes as needed to get bailed out.

Meanwhile, MANY people were murmuring about Kanzaris. Of note, the double voter, who I still thought was obvtown at that point as I hadn't digested how dumb Kanz's fakeclaim was or even confirmed it was a fakeclaim, nor seen this gambit against me which makes no sense, had a natural reason to suspect Kanzaris. Frankly it was the only hope for Johnbobb to not get lynched at that point.
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I still have my doubts on you either way. Kanzaris claiming Alany when you'd already vote2 claimed Alany seems too big a blunder for Kanz given how intimate he'd be with the flavor behind his own blunder unless he had some masterplan in place. And I really do think you should've went HARD on Kanzaris unless you were dead set on Johnbobb being scum, which you clearly weren't. Also Johnbobb had shown suspicions of Ulti-- I literally reread all his posts to confirm I'm not crazy.

Basically your in game actions just don't really add up to me.

I'm not saying this automatically makes you scum, but hopefully town will not just give you an auto pass due to your role being INCONCEIVABLE!! for scum. I think the weirdnesses are adding up a bit much here, particularly when you consider against your fairly distant approach to the game which got you suspicion to begin with.
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Alright well I don't see a reason to continue to dawdle on this.

I claim FFD, Town Watcher. Unfortunately FFD doesn't like to get too invested in the game and keep himself at a distance, so if I watch in any given night I can't watch the next two nights. I assume I'll probably be dead before I get to do it again so no point in not claiming, particularly because I don't really think I can spin an argument for who I caught last night while still remaining credible without a claim.

Watched Corrik last night. Big reason I was so against flavor claiming for Corrik was because I knew since Kanz was scum he would likely guess I was Watcher since that's actually a pretty good role fit for FFD, and Corrik was the obvious mafia kill last night

##Vote: Johnbobb

One person visited Corrik, and it was a person that made me look quite the fool. I think Death probably has to be town,as all 3 lynches being scum seems wrong, and I think Death probably would've been sent to make the kill over Johnbobb in either case, right? I dunno. What are the thoughts on that. MZero in particular who was as suspicious of Death as I was.
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Leo claimed in topic 2, post 169 with (I'm Kanz)

Then elaborated in topic 2, post 182 with explaining that "his minion votes for him"

Kanzaris would know that meant Alany-- he played dumb by saying it was Nilin for a while, but Nilin didn't generate votes it was just an overpowered merc among a bunch of overpowered mercs.

Kanzaris meanwhile hadn't fakeclaimed till the beginning of day 2 after Corrik had claimed a scan on him. Topic 4 Post 164. It was immediately met with "that's obviously Kanzaris's second vote wtf" by anyone who had played the game, and at that point Kanzaris probably assumed he was cooked. Then well, people got off Kanzaris for varying reasons, and Leo didn't really push at all.
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His plan being sacrificing his scumbuddy to have the masterclaim, for the record.

I mean Kanzaris claimed fakeclaimed Alany IN SPITE of a claimed Kanzaris doublevoter in the game before he'd claimed it. Isn't that a bit weird? Kanzaris knows more than anyone that if the Kanzaris claim were a legitimate one, that the double vote flavor would be Alany. He was right there in the thick of the drama when people were saying her vote was basically rigged for him.
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There's a big glaring thing here in that Leo didn't really push that hard for Kanzaris's lynch towards the end-- like yes he moved the double vote but it took some convincing to get there. Especially considering he pointed out that his second vote counterclaims Kanzaris early in the day.

I feel like you'd be unless you were rock solid 100% sure Death or Johnbobb were scum, you would be pushing for Kanzaris HARD. Particularly because you were humoring "if Johnbobb is town" towards the end of the day, and also because you have a double vote, you are literally the one man vote swing as you displayed.

He also sets seeds for going after lynching me today, regardless of what Johnbobb flips, before we even flop over to Kanzaris-- and despite me spearheading that lynch he still suspects me. That feels like having a gambit planned and proceeding to execute rather than someone who's trying to take the game in and scumhunt. Particularly because he claimed he read Johnbobb's posts and found no suspicion of Ulti till Chris says he's obv SK, when upon rereading to sanity check myself I find a lot of that, in a subtle way. Topic 3, Post 93. Topic 3, Post 139. Granted he did also say "Ulti feels like typical overconfident town Ulti" but the posts of suspicion were there. I don't think it's reasonable to condemn me for getting that vibe if you were absorbing everything. The more RECENT stuff he'd posted was anti-Ulti.

Overall I think Leo is looking really suspicious. Despite the flavor making perfect sense and scum doublevoter being absurd, I don't feel the reactions to anything are that of a town player. He has also said "I can't believe people are suspecting that a double voter might not be town" previously. I dunno more and more it just feels like an overly cocky scum who is taking humor in the irony of projecting his plan onto me.

Anyway now that you all hate me for that post, can someone sanity check me here-- does the possibility that Johnbobb, Death, and Kanzaris were all scum make sense to anyone? Or does it pretty much have to be only two out of the three?
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Summary of thoughts at the end of the day as I absorbed them, having just reread the scramble yesterday.

Kanzaris - much grilling on Johnbobb for not hating on Ulti hard after an "aha!" moment
Corrik - claimed Johnbobb as likely idiot, pushed for Kanz
Tony - Said Kanz had a "fake" post with said "aha!" moment. Voted Johnbobb because he should have hinted power or something to draw shots. Kinda confused about things in general. Says Johnbobb jumping over to Kanz is "GG" when had shown suspicion of Kanz.
Benjamin - Had no issues with Johnbobb up until the claim. Had no town read on him but was neutral on the lynch. Said Kanz was very fake, pushed for Kanz
Leo - crusades on Johnbobb hard because he hadn't expressed sufficient doubt of Ulti, sets seeds for lynching me today regardless of what any flips are
Menu - much grilling on Johnbobb for not hating on Ulti hard. Only likes scare on Death's lynch.
Johnbobb - Death, Oddity, Kanz, Tony all probably scum. Menu and Leo weakass town.
IGCD - Voted Death, said he'd rather lynch Kanz, then went to JB entirely on the claim, then went with Death because "it'd give the most info", then later went to Kanz
MZero - thinks JB didn't think far enough ahead and fabricated BP on the spot, but points out hypocrisy in double standard with him and Death
Jaded_Eye - said he thinks Johnbobb is scummy, but went on Death anyway, despite that claim rubbing everyone the wrong way
eaed - present, vote does not move, no real thoughts
Lopen - crusades hard for JB's innocence
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There are plenty of reasons to ask it as scum. A big thing scum tends to do is ask questions that aren't actually relevant or post observations that don't make a stance either way or whatever else, to make it seem like they're participating in the game

Anyway thought experiment...

Question to everyone: Based on voting records, who do you think is likely scum if Death is scum? Also if Johnbobb is scum? I feel like with all that late day movement onto scum, and because one of the two starting lynch trains was likely scum, that we have disproportionately more information than we'd normally have. Which, btw, is kind of another reason that imo it's a bad gambit, but I digress.
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I think the thinking is backwards and that's kinda the problem with the whole theory. Most people thought I was town-- spearhead a lynch on Kanzaris... so... most people think I'm town? There is very little to gain whatsoever by any sort of gambit for me there. And you guys know well I think highly of my abilities in this game-- do you think I would feel a need to lynch a scummate to exonerate myself?

I want Oddity and Leo, and anyone else considering voting me, to explain to me why this is a logical scum move.
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Like I guess the question is... do you think Death is obvtown or something? And if you think Johnbobb was scum, why the change of heart to suspect a guy who basically caused scum to get lynched over him yesterday?

If I cause another scum to get lynched today, am I throwing another scum under the bus to become the ultimate unstoppable scum, or am I a town player who is happening to hit scum?

I'm just wondering how many scum I have to kill to not get this double vote every day. Because you suspecting me is just ludicrous to me.

Let's remove the trust of Johnbobb from the table-- do you have any other reasons to suspect me?
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Oh okay. I did gloss over it. I sorta just filled in the blanks because you were so sure Johnbobb is scum yesterday and now you're pretty sure he's town? That's really weird to me.

The whole argument that'd I'd sacrifice a scummate is ridiculous and to me feels like you're overthinking the game. I had very little suspicion aside from the first 10 minutes of the game. Why would I need to make some elaborate gambit that kills a scum and removes a town lynch to "clear" myself when I had very little suspicion to begin with?
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Now, I don't want to tell you guys how to do your job, but if you think Johnbobb is scum and I was maneuvering scum off of scum onto scum, wouldn't it make more sense to lynch Johnbobb today than me regardless? It really makes no sense to lynch a guy who spearheaded a lynch of scum. I mean Doctor was dead, and there are no other claimed power roles than Corrik, who has perished. The utility of a roleblocker or whatever is limited.

Also you paint me as a completely inconsistent character. Why would I sacrifice scummates while adamantly protecting scummates. The personality profile makes no sense. It makes a lot more sense that I legitimately thought Johnbobb was showing townish behaviors and showed suspicion of Ulti in his posts, and could not check if I was right too well due to being on a phone, as I said. Since when does the TOWN win a two train lynch? The fact that Death had a lot more arguments levied against him over the course of the day made me adamant Johnbobb was town because well, why would Johnbobb be winning out in votes in spite of that, particularly when the chief argument "why didn't you show more suspicion of ulti claiming a role similar to yours" applied doubly to Death with "why didn't you show more suspicion of Ben literally claiming your role?"

I mean yes, he made arguments against it. But why were those arguments good?

Explain why I'm getting votes before Johnbobb in any logical approach to the game and I'll be more inclined to claim.
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Warrior no selling the pedigree was awesome. I wish someone had done that when Triple H actually was a thing
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He kinda ran him off with the entrance anyway.

Like I think I would've been satisfied if there was any transition between the halves whatsoever

It kinda just felt like two unrelated segments being mashed together.
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There is probably a way to word an ability that is conceptually similar where it is no longer messy, possibly by nerfing it, but as is yeah it was not good.
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Diablo is one of those builds that worked because it was strong but I would actually support changing entirely because

1. Soul mechanic was probably over complicated for the function it gave.
2. Lord of Terror is kind of an interpretation mess. It's also British.

Unfortunately I don't actually have any better ideas at the moment but yeah I don't think he was a particularly good build.
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TheRock1525 posted...

Lopen posted...

Imagine if Y2J debuted by interrupting The Rock with a violinist solo followed by a dance routine

Imagine if you tried to debut a non-English speaking wrestler by having him try to have a back and forth with one of your current best promo guys.

That would be pretty dumb. Fortunately I think there are dozens of other things to do for non English speaking wrestlers that don't in fact involve dance routines
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Oh. Well maybe she can use that discarded Enhancer if I draw her
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I don't actually hate Ashe but encroaching on X-Death's niche will not be tolerated.

Also don't like her enough to draw for her as a 5* regardless but you know just saying. As far as FFXII characters go she's good!
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If only I'd given Emperor some draws imagine how powerful he'd be.



Now this is the screenshot I should've posted.
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Just dropped like 8 tickets cause X-Death would really like that trust mastery.



Okay I actually stole this from Tony since the damn image has been posted twice this page but you know.

You'll see the sword on X-Death immediately. Got enough moogles.
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Imagine if Y2J debuted by interrupting The Rock with a violinist solo followed by a dance routine
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He's just trying to win an argument by shifting to a point no one is making or even interested in I think
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I actually generally enjoy Smackdown though
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You seem to have been attempting to use it as a counterpoint

If you were just making an observation, why not just respond with "elephants are large" next time
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Ah so we're okay with WWE's poor decisions as long as they don't actually care about them, then

No more complaining about Roman Reigns from you
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Makes you more of an NXT guy than well over half of Raw viewers! Most Raw viewers don't even have the network!

And yes I realize the point-- and I feel like you missed my point in that the whole thing I was saying is "the only way that debut works is if you as WWE have deluded yourself into thinking the majority of your fanbase watches NXT. Because it doesn't."
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Not sure which one of those statements I doubt more but I'll just go with "okay" since that seems to work
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Sorry if I offended you NXT guy
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And I will say that if you're not one of those NXT people, these kinda debuts come off as kinda pretentious more than anything. Like it's just sorta like "why should I be impressed here?" and it's worsened by the crowd flipping out like that. I mean hell I knew who Prince Devitt was (wasn't a huge fan or anything, but he was fine) from some NJPW shows I've seen, and I sorta had that reaction to Balor due to Balor rising through the ranks of NXT during a time where I hadn't been watching it, and it still hasn't fully worn off either.
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God I hate that these battle gauntlets end at a few hours before the day flips, instead of ending as the day flips. As someone who often does quests at the end of the day, I've lost a lot of feathers/flags due to the battle arena not being open when I log in late.
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I mean I'm not even saying that he needs to have a match with Miz. Just have him run Miz off. Make him showing up be more directly a way to punk out Miz (like a reaction to Miz making some sort of open challenge or something-- I would've loved to see Miz do a mockery of the John Cena US Title Invitational and have him show up) rather than some random non-sequitur broadway act.

Also for the record I think Finn Balor doesn't really connect with your week to week viewer as well as he should either, for the same reason.

I guess the problem is it's not obvious because like, people who would buy tickets to WWE shows will have a higher concentration of NXT fans, and the concentration will be high enough that people who aren't actually over with people on the whole will get those superstar reactions because those NXT guys will be sufficient to start the chants. But I mean, you look at the number of subscribers, and the viewership numbers for NXT, and you know that's just not the case. Despite Raw's ratings being lower than ever they're still way the hell higher than NXT's
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So what you're saying is you agree with my original statement that you need to have familiarity with NXT (or NJPW I suppose) to get anything out of the debut, but you don't agree with my assessment of how widespread NXT fandom is

I'll take that I suppose
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I mean really, just give me one reason why people are reacting that way other than "they know who he is already" and I'll concede the debut was fine.
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Yes. Doubly so because it's a post WM crowd.

That enthusiasm just doesn't translate well to viewers, who are wondering why the hell people are flipping out so much to some guy who is acting more like some dancer on broadway than a wrestler, and doing nothing else.
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Just watched Smackdown!

I feel like WWE is overestimating how many people watch NXT with how they're debuting these people lately.

Like that Nakamura debut was really really bad-- would've turned me off from the guy if I didn't already know him.
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