Board 8 > Mercenaries 4 Topic 6: Dante Solos Edition

(+) Yeah! (+)

MenuWars posted...

So glad Kanz was scum, his last post confirmed it before he died but that sudden switch around made me think we were onto a loss there. Maybe Kanz really did think Corrik was Mason and wanted to try and get a multi kill out of it or something?

Honestly I thought Corrik was Mason recruiter too when he said the person he scanned "knows" he scanned him. But I have no idea why Kanz brought that up on the way down. It's really bizarre
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benjamin3740 posted...

MenuWars posted...

Hmmmm kinda surprised Corrik's dead. Not sure what to make of that. Question is what kind of Thief was he, the flavour scanning kind or the ability fudging kind?

Why are you surprised he's dead? Posts like this always come off as fake to me. But I'll be loose with you because I've never played with you before

Because I would've seen unclaimed peeps or Leo as bigger threats. Corrik was blustering so I'd personally assumed nilla or scum.
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MZero11 posted...

MenuWars posted...

So glad Kanz was scum, his last post confirmed it before he died but that sudden switch around made me think we were onto a loss there. Maybe Kanz really did think Corrik was Mason and wanted to try and get a multi kill out of it or something?

Honestly I thought Corrik was Mason recruiter too when he said the person he scanned "knows" he scanned him. But I have no idea why Kanz brought that up on the way down. It's really bizarre

That post took all the worry out of me that he might be town, it was basically a fuck you post.
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MenuWars posted...

benjamin3740 posted...

MenuWars posted...

Hmmmm kinda surprised Corrik's dead. Not sure what to make of that. Question is what kind of Thief was he, the flavour scanning kind or the ability fudging kind?

Why are you surprised he's dead? Posts like this always come off as fake to me. But I'll be loose with you because I've never played with you before

Because I would've seen unclaimed peeps or Leo as bigger threats. Corrik was blustering so I'd personally assumed nilla or scum.

That's fair. I do agree
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I wonder how pissed Kanz is that he got counter claimed by the trinket text for a double vote.

##Vote: Lopen
##Vote2: Lopen

He seemed way too sure JB was Town last night, as I mentioned previously. I was willing to unvote JB after his reaction to immense pressure (and because Kanz was obvscum since he claimed but shhh) but Lopen was adamant from the start that JB was Town because he was negative towards Ulti all day.

But the thing is, I control F'd all of JB's posts from topics two and three multiple times. I'm not playing quite as lazy as I've been playing. And JB has no significant thoughts on Ulti until the final hours where Chris captures his imagination with the serial killer flavor. But Lopen insisted he was against Ulti, as befits someone who had someone claim else claim his role.

The funny part is JB didn't say otherwise! He said he didn't think Untargetable and Bulletproof coexisting was a problem! Which is kind of "what" but we'll set that aside from now. But I don't think Lopen's opinion last night was reasonable from a town point of view.

Now, you're probably thinking "But Lopen sparked the train back to Kanz!", which, fair. That's obviously a point in his favor and probably going to buy him a lot of game-time. However,

1. Kanz was dead in the water.
2. A vote to Kanz when JB had a 3-4 vote lead with 5 minutes to go had a real chance of being impotent (but looking good later)
3. Lopen is apparently a mafia genius, so I don't think it's unreasonable to think he'd bus a teammate in this spot.

Also, Corrik wanted him to claim and now he's dead.
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MenuWars posted...

benjamin3740 posted...

MenuWars posted...

Hmmmm kinda surprised Corrik's dead. Not sure what to make of that. Question is what kind of Thief was he, the flavour scanning kind or the ability fudging kind?

Why are you surprised he's dead? Posts like this always come off as fake to me. But I'll be loose with you because I've never played with you before

Because I would've seen unclaimed peeps or Leo as bigger threats. Corrik was blustering so I'd personally assumed nilla or scum.

I actually felt the same way. I think they might have really thought he was cop after he was so sure on Kanz. Though really that's just how Corrik plays (even if he did steal from Kanz...)
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benjamin3740 posted...

Vote: Jaded

I'm up for Jaded claiming next

Also, yes, claim
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Hmmmm the only way Lopen making that swing to Kanz makes sense as scum is if JB is their roleblocker or something and they couldn't think of a way to swing it to Death?

Gonna need to mull that one over, cus I don't buy they killed Corrik for threatening Lopen there for anything but WIFOM personally.
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I guess there's also the possibility they thought there'd be a last minute rush on Death... but that one seems more unlikely. Still kinda liking Lopen as town here.
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I think I outlined a number of possible reasons why a scum Lopen would swap over there. I won the last game I played as scum by bussing just one teammate like that.
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So in your version of events Johnbobb is town and Lopen is hard defending him if I'm reading it right?
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That's where my head is currently at.
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I did like the way Johnbobbs first thoughts weren't OMGUS and hard defence when he came under attack right at the end. The Celine Dion bit made my bones itch though. But yeah it seems more glaring for someone to hard defend someone based on nothing, than it does for someone to be completely oblivious of rolemeta.
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Gonna reread the first couple topics and if it's as you say and Lopens making shit up to defend him, you have my sword.
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Just see if you think this is reasonable or not:

Lopen posted...

Johnbobb always showed suspicions of Ulti iirc and frankly Ulti didn't need the counterclaim push. It's dumb to expect him to have been compelled to counter at any point

Lopen posted...

Leo3L posted...

Lopen posted...

I don't know why johnbobb has to say ' this role is bs for town' btw. He can just be more inclined to support arguments against the guy whose role he doesn't believe

Or like, vote him at any point during the day

You don't need to vote him. Especially considering Ulti was a lynch leader for much of the day and self destructed at the end. Just read his posts.

Lopen posted...

And? Read his posts. Voting records are practically pointless for Ulti.

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Well, the end of yesterday made me feel warier of a JB lynch. Still not convinced he's town but IIRC kanz was really driving for JB's lynch hard at end of day yesterday. I'll go back and look to make sure tomorrow. I kind of want Lopen to claim because I'm suspicious of him and Corrik wanted it, too. The person he scanned knows because he stole something from them, I don't know what but he did.
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Oh man, this is embarassing, completely forgot to

##Vote: Lopen
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I agree Lopen went way too far defending Johnbob. I remember him having the conversation about how he thinks Johnbob was soft-counter claiming Ulti by being opposed to Ulti, when in fact Johnbob had been stating that he didnt think once that their roles countered eachother (Which is also a little hard to believe)
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just realized i missed mafia in topic title

was wondering why it wasnt in my search
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Now, I don't want to tell you guys how to do your job, but if you think Johnbobb is scum and I was maneuvering scum off of scum onto scum, wouldn't it make more sense to lynch Johnbobb today than me regardless? It really makes no sense to lynch a guy who spearheaded a lynch of scum. I mean Doctor was dead, and there are no other claimed power roles than Corrik, who has perished. The utility of a roleblocker or whatever is limited.

Also you paint me as a completely inconsistent character. Why would I sacrifice scummates while adamantly protecting scummates. The personality profile makes no sense. It makes a lot more sense that I legitimately thought Johnbobb was showing townish behaviors and showed suspicion of Ulti in his posts, and could not check if I was right too well due to being on a phone, as I said. Since when does the TOWN win a two train lynch? The fact that Death had a lot more arguments levied against him over the course of the day made me adamant Johnbobb was town because well, why would Johnbobb be winning out in votes in spite of that, particularly when the chief argument "why didn't you show more suspicion of ulti claiming a role similar to yours" applied doubly to Death with "why didn't you show more suspicion of Ben literally claiming your role?"

I mean yes, he made arguments against it. But why were those arguments good?

Explain why I'm getting votes before Johnbobb in any logical approach to the game and I'll be more inclined to claim.
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That sure is a lot of words that completely miss the point.

I'm accusing you of scum knowing JB was town and wanting to look good in that clusterfuck. That's why I'm voting you and not JB.

But nice try twisting the argument into something easier to defend.
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Seriously, you accuse me of not reading the game? Either you completely missed 205, the actually important post here, or you're trying to gaslight hard.
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benjamin3740 posted...

I really wish hosts would tell us what their made-up roles mean and do. Unless Town thief is something I should already be aware of.

I was Town Thief in Zendikar Mafia, and it's basically a flavor scanner.

Unless someone says otherwise, guessing Corrik was bullshitting about the "they know I scanned them" part?

Anyway, I still think Johnbob could be scum, but I already made my case yesterday so I dunno what else to say about that.
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benjamin3740 posted...

I basically love every person who switched their vote to Kanz in that last 10 minutes. I guess I love them a bit less if Johnbob ends up also being scum, but Kanz's attitude toward that combined with Johnbob's defenses makes me think there's some definite probability of Johnbob being town. And Death I'm even more sure is town, based on reads of him. So lets please not waste the day away tunneling them,

benjamin3740 posted...

I agree Lopen went way too far defending Johnbob. I remember him having the conversation about how he thinks Johnbob was soft-counter claiming Ulti by being opposed to Ulti, when in fact Johnbob had been stating that he didnt think once that their roles countered eachother (Which is also a little hard to believe)

So do you think Johnbob is more likely to be Town or scum?

Because this seems wishy washy as hell.
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Also Ben claimed Death's flavour, first post as a well known mafia meme, not as in hey guys I'm the super version of whatever your role is. There's quite a large difference there and I don't know how you're not seeing it.

Also just checked, the worst thing JB does as far as Ulti is concerned is think he might be SK, also I remembered and reread my discussion with JB where he literally says he never had a problem with Ulti's claim or thought about it. Which I still find weird but what is undoubtedly weirder is you being absolutely adamant he was anti Ulti all game when the worst he said about his play was "he's all over the place".

...and now today rather than being adamant you've backtracked away from that defense.
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Oh okay. I did gloss over it. I sorta just filled in the blanks because you were so sure Johnbobb is scum yesterday and now you're pretty sure he's town? That's really weird to me.

The whole argument that'd I'd sacrifice a scummate is ridiculous and to me feels like you're overthinking the game. I had very little suspicion aside from the first 10 minutes of the game. Why would I need to make some elaborate gambit that kills a scum and removes a town lynch to "clear" myself when I had very little suspicion to begin with?
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

guessing Corrik was bullshitting

good plan
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Like I guess the question is... do you think Death is obvtown or something? And if you think Johnbobb was scum, why the change of heart to suspect a guy who basically caused scum to get lynched over him yesterday?

If I cause another scum to get lynched today, am I throwing another scum under the bus to become the ultimate unstoppable scum, or am I a town player who is happening to hit scum?

I'm just wondering how many scum I have to kill to not get this double vote every day. Because you suspecting me is just ludicrous to me.

Let's remove the trust of Johnbobb from the table-- do you have any other reasons to suspect me?
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

benjamin3740 posted...

I basically love every person who switched their vote to Kanz in that last 10 minutes. I guess I love them a bit less if Johnbob ends up also being scum, but Kanz's attitude toward that combined with Johnbob's defenses makes me think there's some definite probability of Johnbob being town. And Death I'm even more sure is town, based on reads of him. So lets please not waste the day away tunneling them,

benjamin3740 posted...

I agree Lopen went way too far defending Johnbob. I remember him having the conversation about how he thinks Johnbob was soft-counter claiming Ulti by being opposed to Ulti, when in fact Johnbob had been stating that he didnt think once that their roles countered eachother (Which is also a little hard to believe)

So do you think Johnbob is more likely to be Town or scum?

Because this seems wishy washy as hell.

I lean Town. And both posts said that. My second post is of the theory that Lopen knew Johnbob was town and went way too far trying to look good defending him. Leo did this a ton in the last game i played with him as well
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That's a valid question, it's similar to why I don't buy the arguments around Death either you had no reason to draw yourself so hard into the mix there... but that's essentially why it's called a gambit. With people accusing Death, nothing he did makes any sense as a gambit, whereas there are at least a few valid reasons for you to want to gambit in that instance, one of which being you look town as hell.

What I don't get is why you'd kill Corrik afterwards because it basically negates it. I'm gonna have to go down the WIFOM rabbit hole here, because there's no other way to settle it.
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There's also the unfortunate possibility that Leo is scum doublevoter and facilitated the swing and will now solo town like Dante.
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MenuWars posted...

That's a valid question, it's similar to why I don't buy the arguments around Death either you had no reason to draw yourself so hard into the mix there... but that's essentially why it's called a gambit. With people accusing Death, nothing he did makes any sense as a gambit, whereas there are at least a few valid reasons for you to want to gambit in that instance, one of which being you look town as hell.

Everything makes sense if you assume death wasn't planning to claim pj when he asked, forgot all about the post, and claimed later. It worked beautifully and got the pressure off of him completely. Hell, if topic 1 didn't get archived before purging I don't think anyone would have noticed, it was just on my reread that I picked it up.

I really think your overthinking the motives and all that too much. It was just a slip, not intentional. So it doesn't have to make sense as a gambit or whatever. He just screwed up. That or your scum and defending him... but I've liked the rest of your content so far so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now
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I think the thinking is backwards and that's kinda the problem with the whole theory. Most people thought I was town-- spearhead a lynch on Kanzaris... so... most people think I'm town? There is very little to gain whatsoever by any sort of gambit for me there. And you guys know well I think highly of my abilities in this game-- do you think I would feel a need to lynch a scummate to exonerate myself?

I want Oddity and Leo, and anyone else considering voting me, to explain to me why this is a logical scum move.
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When I was going back to look at votals (I have another person in mind but) I got reminded of this post:

eaedwards6400 posted...

I want to post this just as the day ends, I got a PM saying that if I was gifted a night ability I would be able to use it twice!

The weirdest part about it?

It came not long after Corrik claimed to receive a shot from an Inventor.

Is this a real thing? Is this a weird attempt at pulling an inventor?

##vote: Eaed

@eaedwards6400

Can you explain what this is?
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We have a guy who asked if a flavor could be in the game and then claimed it but nah let's lynch the guy who direct a lynch unto scum sounds like a solid plan
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MZero11 posted...

We have a guy who asked if a flavor could be in the game and then claimed it but nah let's lynch the guy who direct a lynch unto scum sounds like a solid plan

Wait, did he ask if the flavor could be in the game or did he ask how much he played Mercs?

Death, did you ever explain what your flavor says?
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I worded that badly <_<

What I mean is, did he ask a question that literally should be answered by his flavor, or was it more of a "Heh, did Pj really play Mercs?"
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Seriously though, why would Death have not have asked that question on the scumboard or of the host? It makes literally no sense for him to ask in the game at all, let alone for him to then forget about it as scum, Scum are usually way more meticulous in their planning than that.

Hey guys can I fake claim this? Sure you can scum ol buddy ol pal, okay sweet I'mma claim this then, said no scum ever.
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There are plenty of reasons to ask it as scum. A big thing scum tends to do is ask questions that aren't actually relevant or post observations that don't make a stance either way or whatever else, to make it seem like they're participating in the game

Anyway thought experiment...

Question to everyone: Based on voting records, who do you think is likely scum if Death is scum? Also if Johnbobb is scum? I feel like with all that late day movement onto scum, and because one of the two starting lynch trains was likely scum, that we have disproportionately more information than we'd normally have. Which, btw, is kind of another reason that imo it's a bad gambit, but I digress.
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http://gmun.moe/b8/Lurker/index.php?search=mafia
Posting the Archive link in here for peeps for posterity and I'll go grab day 1 votals again.
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Day 1
9] Ulti: (IGCD), Corrik, Lopen, (IGCD), Chris, Leo, Leo2, Scare, Ben, Oddity, IGCD
[3] Johnbobb: (Kanz), Tony, Ulti, Death, (Oddity)
[1] Corrik: Shad, (VI), (Ulti)
[1] Oddity: (Lopen), (Scare), MZero
[1] Tony: (Death), Johnbobb
[0] Shaduln: (Ben), (MZero)
[0] MZero: (Oddity), (Kanz), (Oddity)
[0] Ben: (Ulti), (Scare), (Mzero), (Leo), (Leo2)
[0] Kanz: (MZero), (MZero)
[0] Death: (chris), (Ben), (Chris), (VI), (Ulti)
[0] IGCD: (Ulti), (oddity)
[0] Chris: (Corrik)
[0] Leo: (VI), (Ben), (Death), (Oddity), (chris)
[0] Lopen: (God), (Oddity), (Ulti), (Chris)
[0] VI: (Ulti), (Ulti), (Oddity), (Oddity)
Day 2
[7] Kanz: (Corrik), (Oddity), (MZero), (Scare), (Leo), (Leo2), (Tony), (Corrik), Corrik, Ben, Lopen, Leo, Leo2, IGCD, Johnbobb
[5] Johnbobb: Death, (Leo), (Leo2), Oddity, (Menu), Kanz, (IGCD), Menu, Tony
[3] Death: MZero, (Lopen), Scare, (Corrik), (Oddity), (Johnbobb), (Jaded), (IGCD), Jaded, (IGCD)
[1] Ben: Eaed, (Tony), (Leo), (Leo2), (IGCD)
[0] Oddity: (Kanz), (Jaded), (Tony)
[0] Jaded: (Menu)
[0] Corrik: (IGCD)
[0] Eaed: (Kanz), (Menu)
[0] Menu: (Corrik)


Honestly difficult to say who looks like scum based on votals at this point because day 1 was an indie lynch which is moot and so we can only base on day 2... and the only people that look good day 2 were the people on Kanz. Not enough data. Day 4 anyone alive will have something more substantial.
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Interesting to note Kanz was on JB day 1 and trying to lead on him so that's town points for JB.
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Mzero looks good being the only person to vote Kanz day 1, and did it twice at that. IGCD is late onto both days lynches which is an interesting habit. My slot did sod all other than get pissed at Corrik day 1 which isn't great, Oddity and Kanz on MZero is interesting to me but probably only because of confirmation bias on Oddity. Who did at least have a vote on Kanz earlier in the day before his lynch.

...and Death's finished both days on JB.

I'm kinda tired but that's all I got out of it.
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...and the only vote Eaed's placed all game is on Ben who I believe to be town. Lel
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Summary of thoughts at the end of the day as I absorbed them, having just reread the scramble yesterday.

Kanzaris - much grilling on Johnbobb for not hating on Ulti hard after an "aha!" moment
Corrik - claimed Johnbobb as likely idiot, pushed for Kanz
Tony - Said Kanz had a "fake" post with said "aha!" moment. Voted Johnbobb because he should have hinted power or something to draw shots. Kinda confused about things in general. Says Johnbobb jumping over to Kanz is "GG" when had shown suspicion of Kanz.
Benjamin - Had no issues with Johnbobb up until the claim. Had no town read on him but was neutral on the lynch. Said Kanz was very fake, pushed for Kanz
Leo - crusades on Johnbobb hard because he hadn't expressed sufficient doubt of Ulti, sets seeds for lynching me today regardless of what any flips are
Menu - much grilling on Johnbobb for not hating on Ulti hard. Only likes scare on Death's lynch.
Johnbobb - Death, Oddity, Kanz, Tony all probably scum. Menu and Leo weakass town.
IGCD - Voted Death, said he'd rather lynch Kanz, then went to JB entirely on the claim, then went with Death because "it'd give the most info", then later went to Kanz
MZero - thinks JB didn't think far enough ahead and fabricated BP on the spot, but points out hypocrisy in double standard with him and Death
Jaded_Eye - said he thinks Johnbobb is scummy, but went on Death anyway, despite that claim rubbing everyone the wrong way
eaed - present, vote does not move, no real thoughts
Lopen - crusades hard for JB's innocence
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gonna be busy for the morning here, have only a few minutes to give answers
at first glance, I feel better about Johnbobb for swinging towards Kanz
even if he might have felt threatened

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

MZero11 posted...

We have a guy who asked if a flavor could be in the game and then claimed it but nah let's lynch the guy who direct a lynch unto scum sounds like a solid plan

Wait, did he ask if the flavor could be in the game or did he ask how much he played Mercs?

Death, did you ever explain what your flavor says?

yeah I did when I first claimed, basically said PJbasis was barely remembered, a mere footnote in Mercs 4, hence him being a vanilla
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Lopen posted...

Question to everyone: Based on voting records, who do you think is likely scum if Death is scum? Also if Johnbobb is scum? I feel like with all that late day movement onto scum, and because one of the two starting lynch trains was likely scum, that we have disproportionately more information than we'd normally have. Which, btw, is kind of another reason that imo it's a bad gambit, but I digress.

Based on votes, without remembering why they voted, Ben and IGCD are scum if Death is.

Ben because four people voted Death Day 1, three of who are confirmed "Town" (Ulti being survivor has the same knowledge of Town), and when someone gets four votes, odds are one is scum.

IGCD because he voted and invited Death twice, settling on the final lynch. But also ICGD voted Ulti three times Day 1, so I think he throws his vote around too much.


If Johnbob is scum:

Ben is scum, because Ben didn't vote Kanz Day 1, voted him late in the day 2 (after I'd unvoted because Corrik revealed he lied about his scan), and also because I remember Ben defending Johnbob early, when JB had made like 5 posts, one of which was a pretty egregious bandwagon vote onto me with Death.

Oddity, he's voted like everyone in the game, and I don't know if I've seen him give a good reason once.

Now I'm off to bed.
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also IGCD and Lopen switching from me to Kanz is also a strange act for scum
even if they were trying to save John, they could have gotten the same result by staying on me

though admittedly Leo is hard to fight against
the ones that look worst on me are definitely Oddity and Jaded (mostly Jaded)
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There's a big glaring thing here in that Leo didn't really push that hard for Kanzaris's lynch towards the end-- like yes he moved the double vote but it took some convincing to get there. Especially considering he pointed out that his second vote counterclaims Kanzaris early in the day.

I feel like you'd be unless you were rock solid 100% sure Death or Johnbobb were scum, you would be pushing for Kanzaris HARD. Particularly because you were humoring "if Johnbobb is town" towards the end of the day, and also because you have a double vote, you are literally the one man vote swing as you displayed.

He also sets seeds for going after lynching me today, regardless of what Johnbobb flips, before we even flop over to Kanzaris-- and despite me spearheading that lynch he still suspects me. That feels like having a gambit planned and proceeding to execute rather than someone who's trying to take the game in and scumhunt. Particularly because he claimed he read Johnbobb's posts and found no suspicion of Ulti till Chris says he's obv SK, when upon rereading to sanity check myself I find a lot of that, in a subtle way. Topic 3, Post 93. Topic 3, Post 139. Granted he did also say "Ulti feels like typical overconfident town Ulti" but the posts of suspicion were there. I don't think it's reasonable to condemn me for getting that vibe if you were absorbing everything. The more RECENT stuff he'd posted was anti-Ulti.

Overall I think Leo is looking really suspicious. Despite the flavor making perfect sense and scum doublevoter being absurd, I don't feel the reactions to anything are that of a town player. He has also said "I can't believe people are suspecting that a double voter might not be town" previously. I dunno more and more it just feels like an overly cocky scum who is taking humor in the irony of projecting his plan onto me.

Anyway now that you all hate me for that post, can someone sanity check me here-- does the possibility that Johnbobb, Death, and Kanzaris were all scum make sense to anyone? Or does it pretty much have to be only two out of the three?
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His plan being sacrificing his scumbuddy to have the masterclaim, for the record.

I mean Kanzaris claimed fakeclaimed Alany IN SPITE of a claimed Kanzaris doublevoter in the game before he'd claimed it. Isn't that a bit weird? Kanzaris knows more than anyone that if the Kanzaris claim were a legitimate one, that the double vote flavor would be Alany. He was right there in the thick of the drama when people were saying her vote was basically rigged for him.
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