Board 8 > Hearthstone: New Core Set and an expansion I guess

(+) Yeah! (+)

Six changes...

Deck of Lunacy
Refreshing Spring Water
Sword of the Fallen
Swinetusk Shank
Pen Flinger
Jimi Hendrix

Edit: Yes, Field Contact is the much better choice for Rogue. I forgot that card existed because whenever I play Rogue all I see is the giant weapon.

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I dont see how they can nerf pen flinger without like making it unplayable in any deck running it.

thats fine. make it unplayable

my prediction is that theyre either making it 2 mana or making it a spellburst: return to your hand at the end of your turn

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Forceful_Dragon posted... 3 mana, refund 1 per spell seems more balanced. It means it's "on line" 1 turn earlier, but then you are spending 1 mana to draw 2 cards instead of 0 mana to draw 2 cards. And it would take 2 cost reductions to gain mana by casting it instead of only 1 cost reduction.

I mean, the problem with 3 mana reduce 1 per spell is that now it's literally better than arcane intellect in every deck. And AI is already a super good spell (gets run in wild). If they really decide to hit Refreshing spring Water, I'd rather see them make it be be 6 mana and restore 3 per spell drawn. Still a nifty 0 mana draw 2 under the right conditions, but can't use it till turn 6, not a card you can reasonably keep in your opening hand.

KokoroAkechi posted...

I dont see how they can nerf pen flinger without like making it unplayable in any deck running it.

The common suggestions are "make it not hit face" or alternatively some people have suggested "make it not hit minions". (I would rather see "make it not hit face" personally).

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I think you have to include the 3 mana watch post on the nerf list since it's almost pushing board based decks out of the meta entirely, and they can't be happy with that.

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CybrMonkey posted...

I think you have to include the 3 mana watch post on the nerf list since it's almost pushing board based decks out of the meta entirely, and they can't be happy with that.

I mean, Paladin is board based. Would think most of those decks just kinda do poorly against it tbh

However, could see it over spring water

the other underrated option for a nerf is Brain Freeze.

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brain freeze is pretty op but if theyre only nerfing 6 cards I dont see it making the cut

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I mean I could see it take the rogue slot since Rogue isnt crushing the meta (but they may preemptively nerf those like they did scrap imp)

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It might not be as prevalent as on day 1, but I'm still going to bet money something needs to be done about Tickatus warlock. Once they temper the frontrunners, lock is probably going to be much more popular.

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Tickatus should be 6 mana 8/8: Burn the top 5 cards of your deck; Corrupt: And burn 5 top cards of opponent's deck too

They've already printed support for self-mill Warlock so it even supports that dumb deck!

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I put horde operative as tech in my deck since the only things im facing is mage. It's great.

Really dont think Tickatus is that good, Warlock is gonna be ahead of you in fatigue in most cases anyway as control and you should have a way to pressure them/try to win the game to bully them into not playing a 8/8 do nothing

This video is pretty good on it

https://youtu.be/u5Nox2Zej_o

Think like, Tamsin or Jaraxxus/Yshaarj are the strong cards in warlock

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Tickatus rules, such a fun card to play

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Jaraxxus definitely feels like the strongest card in my Warlock deck.

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I don't know why that guy is assuming that Warlocks are just dropping Tickatus on turn 8 and skipping their turn instead of using their brains. You can easily stall until turn 10 and play cascading + tickatus. Or there's also the situation where you discounted tickatus to 3 mana you could play him on Turn 5!

Also the arguments about whether it's good or not are distracting from the fact that it's too anti-fun. When I play Hearthstone I want to actually play my cards not watch my opponent burn 1/3 of my deck.

Cards can be anti-fun but this one crosses a line in my opinion.

EDIT: To add to that I think that Paladin Secrets are almost passing into too much anti-fun as well because you're literally being punished for playing the game which does NOT feel good. With the current secrets you get punished for playing a spell, for playing 3 cards, for attacking, and for killing minions. At least there's some level of strategy involved with playing around them which CAN be fun but I think they should really move away from cards that don't let you play the damn game.

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Tickatus is literally anti-Me as a Priest player, but it doesn't bother me too much until it comes around a second time because of Whyshuarrjay. And at that point, I'd rather do something to the latter card.

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LiquidOshawott posted...

Really dont think Tickatus is that good, Warlock is gonna be ahead of you in fatigue in most cases anyway as control and you should have a way to pressure them/try to win the game to bully them into not playing a 8/8 do nothing

This video is pretty good on it

https://youtu.be/u5Nox2Zej_o

Yeah, he's kind-of missing the point.

I mean, he's not wrong that top 200 legend has been a pocket meta where Tickatus is not played much, because the deck to beat in the high-legend pocket meta has for the past 4 months has been decks that go face (rogue decks with lots of face damage, mage decks with lots of face damage). Tickatus isn't good against those decks.

And to be clear, it's not like I'm searching for ways to beat Tickatus decks. I'm not above playing aggro decks. I play wild for fuck's sake. But like...one of the appeals of still playing standard instead of only playing wild is that maybe in standard I can pick up a control deck. And as long as Tickatus stays popular in my matchmaking queues, that's...probably not happening.

Like...

https://hsreplay.net/archetypes/63/control-warlock#tab=matchups

Control warlock is like 80-20 against priest decks (pretty much all of them), and 70-30 against warrior decks.

I get that mill doesn't matter unless you hit fatigue. But with Tickatus I generally do hit fatigue. I frequently find myself with an empty library the moment Y'sharrj drops on turn 10.

To be fair, I had similar feelings about Mech'a'thun when Rise of Shadows came out; I wanted it to be hall of famed early. But it turns out there weren't any good Mech'a'thun combos after rotation, so it kinda went away on its own. If Tickatus drops in popularity like Mech'a'thun did, it's not really a problem. (So far it's been rising in popularity after rotation, but we'll see).

Camden posted...

Jaraxxus definitely feels like the strongest card in my Warlock deck.

Fair, Jaraxxus might also be an issue for other control decks. But...worth noting I think Tickatus is probably better than Jaraxxus against specifically control decks which can't run soul fragments. (Jaraxxus is obviously better in the control warlock mirror where soul fragments give warlock defence against being milled. I'm just not sure it's better into other control decks).

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They should have put archivist elysiana in Core to give control decks a potential anti mill tool.

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Jaraxxus being the best warlock card is precisely why Tickatus is able to be a problem. Turn 9 Jaraxxus, Strongman, Strongman. Opponent goes nuts clearing. Turn 10 Twisting Nether, Inferno. Turn 11 Tickatus. Turn 12 Y'Shaarj and play another Tickatus.

This is assuming Tickatus wasn't discounted. At that point, it can be played after Soulciologist Malicia. With that much strength in the late game, basically the entire rest of the deck can just be stall.

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azuarc posted...

Jaraxxus being the best warlock card is precisely why Tickatus is able to be a problem. Turn 9 Jaraxxus, Strongman, Strongman. Opponent goes nuts clearing. Turn 10 Twisting Nether, Inferno. Turn 11 Tickatus. Turn 12 Y'Shaarj and play another Tickatus.

I mean, you don't need Jaraxxus for that; pre-Jaraxxus the curve was just....

Turn 8 twisting nether and 2x Strongman.

Turn 9 Hysteria + Tickatus (or wait one turn and Cascading Disaster+Tickatus)

Turn 10 Y'Sharrj, 2x Strongman, Tickatus, and possibly a Cascading Disaster.

Three straight turns of playing a board clear, while also developing a board that is large enough it can't be ignored.

Taelan Fordring played earlier can also help by tutoring for Y'Sharrj/Strongman.

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metroid composite posted...

Control warlock is like 80-20 against priest decks (pretty much all of them), and 70-30 against warrior decks.

To be fair, I had similar feelings about Mech'a'thun when Rise of Shadows came out; I wanted it to be hall of famed early. But it turns out there weren't any good Mech'a'thun combos after rotation, so it kinda went away on its own. If Tickatus drops in popularity like Mech'a'thun did, it's not really a problem. (So far it's been rising in popularity after rotation, but we'll see).

Those matchups... arent Quest Rogue or Jade Druid level bad (and I think are more focused on Jaraxxus). I also think Priest and Warrior are still getting refined while warlock got refined early and have the potential for more growth. (Probably need Lunacy nerfed first but yeah) Priest has that Sethekk bloodweaver combo that seems pretty cool, Control Warrior just has... Rattlegore as a finisher? Grom/CruelTask? Alex? Idk it just doesnt seem good for Warrior mains unless theres some hidden ETC combo

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Wasn't Quest Rogue notorious for being around a 50% winrate deck when it got nerfed? I seem to remember the same arguments about "it actually sucks but it's not fun" that Tickatus gets.

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I mean Priest was always really anti-fun to play against too but that didn't get nerfed.

skullbone posted...

Wasn't Quest Rogue notorious for being around a 50% winrate deck when it got nerfed? I seem to remember the same arguments about "it actually sucks but it's not fun" that Tickatus gets.

It got nerfed more than once, but if memory serves, the first time it was nerfed it's winrate was low, but it was just a huge portion of the ladder.

LiquidOshawott posted...

Those matchups... arent Quest Rogue or Jade Druid level bad

Looking up some old numbers, doesn't look like Quest Rogue or Jade Druid had 80-20 matchups against a lot of control decks. (Plenty of 70-30 matchups). 80-20 matchups are actually extremely rare.

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Really? I felt like the Priest/Quest Rogue matchup was just too strong for the Priest (and Jade Druid basically made Control Warrior obsolete but I guess Taunt could beat it with an early Sulfuras) but I guess Scream was a great removal tool back then. Maybe I just haven't been too impressed with what I do with Control Lock.

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VeryInsane posted...

Really? I felt like the Priest/Quest Rogue matchup was just too strong for the Priest (and Jade Druid basically made Control Warrior obsolete but I guess Taunt could beat it with an early Sulfuras) but I guess Scream was a great removal tool back then. Maybe I just haven't been too impressed with what I do with Control Lock.

I mean, you probably just haven't played against very many control priests, because for the most part people don't play them on ladder outside of very specific pocket metas where they can avoid the warlock matchup.

I also suspect that it's not that easy to spot a random good matchup, especially if it's less than 5% of your opponents on ladder. It's easier to remember the decks you lose to and go "man, that deck that keeps beating me is bullshit." It's much harder to notice "hey, I don't face them that often, but every time I face priest I seem to win; maybe my deck is bullshit against priest specifically?"

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Oh I ran into a couple Priests the other day, one actually almost beat me but I think it was the rally version and it took me a while to get Jaraxxus online. Truthfully I just don't play as much as I used to, mainly just focus on BGs but went back just to play around with the new set.

I think I quit playing that day because I think I got coin Lunacy'd into something like, Force of Nature into Arbor Up and I was like "I miss Hellfire"

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Ok, so this latest bug I'm having is really frustrating. You have standard selected - you can see your rank where it should be - but for some reason the game counts as casual and your rank doesn't change. Has happened a couple of times to me now.

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I think that might have happened to me today. I thought I was at rank 2 for sure, but was still there after winning my game, and I was also pretty sure I was sitting on 3/5 for ranked wins on the week and I was still there as well. I just chalked it up to me being wrong and not paying attention at the time.

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Pretty sure I've had that the other way around. Was playing casual, then somehow found the mode switched to constructed.

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My non-professional opinion on tickatus is that I would like it to at least be both decks on corrupted, instead of just the opponents.
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That version of Tickatus seems unplayable to me.

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Most decks I've seen so far have tons of soul fragments, so some of those probably get removed in lieu of actual cards, is that really that big of a deal?
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So I played some Control Warlock yesterday and fought a few as a spell mage (Wanted to play Lunacy before the nerf, didn't really matter I just played the regular Incanter's flow version lol never got it in mulligan) and my general thought is about the same... it's just a win more card.

Like it's got a really high winrate when played but you won't ever play it when you're behind. And when you play it uncorrupted you basically Nether'd into a couple strongmen or Soulciologist'd the previous turn to get the board initiative. And that's why you lost, not Tickatus.

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Camden posted...

That version of Tickatus seems unplayable to me.

Sounds like a successful nerf to me!

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Emeraldegg posted...

Most decks I've seen so far have tons of soul fragments, so some of those probably get removed in lieu of actual cards, is that really that big of a deal?

In the mirror it does kinda (and Demon Hunter I guess but like, Demon Hunter can burn through their deck fast)? But usually the mirror from what I can tell is more likely gonna boil down to who gets Jaraxxus online

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VeryInsane posted...

and my general thought is about the same... it's just a win more card.

Like it's got a really high winrate when played but you won't ever play it when you're behind.

Sure, it's a finisher like Leeroy Jenkins or Shudderwock--much like a lot of finishers sometimes it'll just rot in your hand if you're on the defensive.

And as with all finishers played winrate is a bad statistic. What you want to do is open up an actual deck in HSReplay, and sort by drawn winrate:

https://hsreplay.net/decks/HnoaQMhofMJts9aQD6NSVb/

Like in this list, Tickatus is the 5th highest drawn winrate card in the deck. Which puts it slightly above average. (Obviously it's pretty bad to draw against some classes, but the converse is that it's pretty good to draw against other classes).

This doesn't cross the line into a winmore card, since drawing the card ups your chances of winning on average, even compared to most other cards in the deck. In fact it probably puts it in the realm of a card that's worth crafting if you want to play warlock.

An example of an actual winmore card would be (drumroll......)

https://hsreplay.net/decks/2qyRrcgZA3miOVrblUKyQc/

Coldarra Drake in hero power mage. Nice lowest drawn winrate in the deck, Coldarra Drake. But hey, if you play a Coldarra Drake on 10 mana you get to ping. Twice. AND THEN if the opponent is so low on resources that they can't kill a 6 mana 6/7, you get to ping 5 more times next turn (potentially for 15 damage). Coldarra Drake is a winmore card.

Or, for a winmore example from control warlock, Envoy Rustwix is pretty close to the bottom of the winrate table, and Rustwix actually got cut in the Vicious Syndicate version of the deck probably for that reason. Envoy Rustwix is also arguably a winmore card for control warlock.

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Its not a finisher though. You dont auto win with burning 5 cards in any deck unless you like, burn Ilgynoth in OTK Demon Hunter. Jaraxxus is a finisher because its the only hero card in the game and nothing can really compete with its value. Ysh is a finisher, and while you can burn more cards with Tick in a majority of games Ive experienced the strength of that card is the tempo you get by getting some taunts and destroying their board. And maybe getting a free 8/8.

Its like saying Gnomeferatu is the finisher in the old control lock decks. Rin kinda was but the focal point was always Bloodreaver Guldan, much like the focal point now is Jaraxxus.

(Also yeah Rustwix is clunky and could mess with Taeron. Fun, but clunky)

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Actually this would lead to a fun experiment: Would a Fleethoof Pearltusk get similar results to Tickatus in Control Warlock?

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I don't know about good players, but I'd be willing to bet my own win rate with elephant would be better than with Tickatus in the deck I'm playing which, to be fair, isn't the refined control list others are running.

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LiquidOshawott posted...

You dont auto win with burning 5 cards in any deck

You win by burning 10.

Burning 10 cards will put most decks into fatigue. (decks draw a minimum of 14 cards by turn 10, and most decks will play a couple of draw spells/minions that draw/weapons that draw, leaving them with around 10 cards left by turn 10).

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metroid composite posted...

You win by burning 10.

Burning 10 cards will put most decks into fatigue. (decks draw a minimum of 14 cards by turn 10, and most decks will play a couple of draw spells/minions that draw/weapons that draw, leaving them with around 10 cards left by turn 10).

Then I guess Mill Rogue truly was the scourge of the meta

But in all seriousness, the average game is over by turn 8 or so, or basically decided by then. I feel like Blizzard doesnt like long grindy control matchups and has tried their best to steer clear of them. And a card like Tickatus keeps that goal, even if some people complain they didnt play all the cards in their deck

But if it will help people sleep at night, I guess 3 cards is a fair nerf

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metroid composite posted...

You win by burning 10.

I'd rather just make it so that Tickatus doesn't work with Whyshuarrjay then, though I'm not sure there's an elegant way to do that.

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Camden posted...

I'd rather just make it so that Tickatus doesn't work with Whyshuarrjay then

Yeah, that would fix quite a few problems.

LiquidOshawott posted...

Then I guess Mill Rogue truly was the scourge of the meta

Mill rogue is unironically still a deck in wild that I face from time to time. And yeah, it's got some super polarized matchups, crushing some control decks.

But that's fine cause it's not very popular.

LiquidOshawott posted...

But in all seriousness, the average game is over by turn 8 or so, or basically decided by then. I feel like Blizzard doesnt like long grindy control matchups and has tried their best to steer clear of them.

I think that's a reasonable goal but...

1. If that's their plan they forgot about Priest lol
2. Tick came out in Darkmoon Faire, filled with old gods who have a turn plan sometime between turn 11 to turn 15. Even after reaching 10 mana it's not always correct to drop a N'Zoth right away, for example, cause you might want to get more stuff in the res pool (like Scrapyard Colossus is a great elemental to bring back). And obviously C'Thun has an even slower gameplan. Just...doesn't seem like the right time to shorten control games so that they're over on turn 10?

As an extension of that last point, design-wise I think Tick is much less of a design issue now than it was when DMF launched. The focus has moved away from the old gods and on to forged in the barrens cards, and forged in the barrens is a very low mana cost set in general (only two cards that cost more than 7 mana).

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This would be more enjoyable if the Mage didn't OTK me later on from full health with no possible counterplay.

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LiquidOshawott posted...

Then I guess Mill Rogue truly was the scourge of the meta

Mill rogue has to dedicate a lot more of their deck space to milling, literally tries to win by fatigue damage rather than grinding you out of resources, and doesn't have the control elements and minion counterplay that warlock does. It also doesn't have a plan B. Tickatus is a one-card component of control lock. Or three cards if you want to factor in the two cards that tutor and cheapen demons.

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Not sure how much stock people here put in the data reaper report but I usually check it out each week.

https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-192/

No surprises here with mage or paladin. Control Warlock sucks (but still nerf Tickatus plz) and my prediction that Celestial Druid will take over the ladder was comically bad because they're saying it's sitting at 30% winrate.

I only played about 30 games but I never lost a game so miserably that the 30% number makes any sense to me. Of course 30 games is basically nothing compared to the data these reports get but I'm still suspicious of that number.

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skullbone posted...

I only played about 30 games but I never lost a game so miserably that the 30% number makes any sense to me. Of course 30 games is basically nothing compared to the data these reports get but I'm still suspicious of that number.

It has a 40% winrate at top 1k legend and they're predicting a rise in paladins, which is a 75-25 matchup. It's only positive matchup against a deck not in tier 4 is Rogue. Seems reasonable to me, though nerfs should come before it actually reaches 30%.

Of course there's only 7 decks that aren't in Tier 4 which is why the meta is so miserable.

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I love that that report essentially says "Every deck Camden is interested in playing is hot garbage get absolutely wrecked lol"

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Camden posted...

I love that that report essentially says "Every deck Camden is interested in playing is hot garbage get absolutely wrecked lol"

Well, yeah, this is one of the most unbalanced metas.

There's a few things to get out of this report:

Apparently using Taelan Fordring to draw primes is very very good. Like...the right way to build secret paladin is to not include the 5 mana secret legendary, and instead run Taelan Fordring who can draw either the prime if it's been shuffled into the deck, or Kazakus.

The other thing to do is to ignore the three classes we know are getting nerfed, and look at the matchup chart:



And...I don't see an obvious winner here. The remaining 7 classes all seem to have at least one deck with quite a bit of green...except maybe hunter and warrior. Deathrattle DH, control priest/spell priest, control warlock, doomhammer shaman, gibberling druid--all looking solid.

Obviously Paladin/Mage/Rogue will probably still have decks, but we don't even know what cards are being nerfed yet, so that's really hard to predict.

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