Board 8 > Hearthstone: New Core Set and an expansion I guess

(+) Yeah! (+)

Its tough to say because like, six nerfs might not be enough for those to not be the top 3 classes. I think some stuff might need to be buffed for other classes, Warrior especially.

But assuming both watchposts get gutted or maybe a Pally secret in addition to sword, Id go with Hunter or Token Druid. Maybe Zoo could come back too. And as someone who played some Control Warlock Far Watch Post was second only to Lunacy in annoyance

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We still don't know the nerfs, but we have some obvious hints.

Obviously Sword of the Fallen, it's busted.

But then random generation effects effectively got a lot stronger because of replacing classic with core, and in interviews they basically said, yeah, they knew this was happening, but decided not to pre-emptively nerf stuff, wait and collect a bit of data. Which makes all the following cards extremely likely nerfs:

• Deck of Lunacy (obviously)
• Jandice Barov (less obvious, but if you check rogue stats it's by far the best rogue card, better than Kazakus).
• First Day of School (I haven't seen anyone talking about this one, but like...card was borderline too good before, and the pool got better. Very frequently makes augmerchants or 1/3s).

Last two are a lot harder to guess. But just going by stats Far Watch Post is likely. Maybe a wicked stab or a refreshing spring water--both of those are also super good.

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In less speculative stuff...I just got Instructor Fireheart from a year of the phoenix pack. Nice! Kept thinking I was going to need to craft that card cause like...every shaman list runs it (including in wild).

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metroid composite posted...

First Day of School (I haven't seen anyone talking about this one, but like...card was borderline too good before, and the pool got better. Very frequently makes augmerchants or 1/3s).

This was on my personal choice nerf list a couple of pages back, alongside making librams not being able to cost 0 and increasing the cost of Pen Flinger to 11 mana.

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I think wand thief could use a nerf but I doubt many people agree. Rogue generating 5 mage cards a game always feels weird

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And what about that Chillwind Yeti... stats a little too high I say

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GANON1025 posted...

And what about that Chillwind Yeti... stats a little too high I say

Not sure a nerf is enough. They had to remove Ogre from standard, probably going to have to do the same thing here.

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Camden posted...

alongside making librams not being able to cost 0 and increasing the cost of Pen Flinger to 11 mana.

I don't think they are going to touch Pen Flinger in this balance patch based on their tweets this week.

I mean...I guess it's possible, much like Tickatus it's a card that a bunch of people hate playing against. And it fills a similar role (it's a finisher that makes the game end).

But given everything they've written about this balance patch, this is going to be a very data driven balance patch, and not a "we're nerfing this card because people don't find it fun to play against" patch. And the data on pen flinger is...nowhere near nerf territory.

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skullbone posted...

I think wand thief could use a nerf but I doubt many people agree. Rogue generating 5 mage cards a game always feels weird

Actually...wand thief probably also benefits from the discover pool being better. As does Apexis Blast.

I don't think they hit Apexis Blast, just because it's the reason to build spell mage, but they might hit wand thief....

Hmm...no, looking at the data, Wand Thief looks like a fairly unlikely nerf target. It's a middle-of-the-road card in Watch Post Rogue. Weapon Rogue doesn't even run the card. Stealth Rogue ALSO doesn't even run the card. It's a middle-of-the-road card in miracle rogue. It's a middle-of-the-road card in Hero Power Mage (which sometimes cuts it anyway).

Nope, probably no change to wand thief.

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Pen Flinger wouldn't bother me if, like Tickatus, it was only available to a single class. It's also not a finisher when I see it, it's just constantly being played all game long.

Edit: Okay, upon rereading this after posting it I need to already make one correction. Even if it was only available in a single class I'm certain Pen Flinger would still very much bother me.

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Pen Flinger not being nerfed would be a national tragedy

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_stingers_ posted...

Pen Flinger not being nerfed would be a national tragedy

Hey!....Loser!

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azuarc posted...

Hey!....Loser!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aZUvpIGSYQ

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Really it shouldnt be wand thief but like, Brain Freeze and Devolving Missiles I could see down the road. Theyre just really good tempo cards in every matchup

Flinger is probably getting nerfed and I would be shocked if it wasnt. but then again it fits the flavor of the card wasnt me

I think we are probably just getting a sword nerf, if its 3 mana it probably changes the nature of Libram/Secret Pally a ton

(Also Jandice would be fine if they didnt keep Shadowstep core, weird choice)

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in my games with libram paladin getting sword early sees a big spike in my win rate more so than like any other card. I do think Sword is 100% being nerfed (probably to 3 mana) and Deck of Lunacy is also probably being hit (most likely to 4 mana).

Which one of these far watch post nerfs do you think is better (not more likely to happen)?

1. Mana cost increased by 1
2. HP reduced by 1
3. Takes 1 damage at the end of your opponents turn.

Mana Cost. I think coining it out is too strong

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Oh, a fun fact! If the flavor is Alliance vs Horde this year then the mercenaries show which class is which based on the ten TBC classes in WoW

Alliance:
Paladin
Hunter
Demon Hunter
Priest
Rogue

Horde:
Druid
Mage
Shaman
Warlock
Warrior

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How exactly does that line up with Burning Crusade? (Which had death knights, not demon hunters.)

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Death knight was in wrath.

Also Illidan

They should just simply make every card in Hearthstone bad. Then, it's all balanced.

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azuarc posted...

How exactly does that line up with Burning Crusade? (Which had death knights, not demon hunters.)

I meant the races that each one is in, not the classes

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Does oh my yogg create a graphical glitch for all the classes or just for shahman lol
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Emeraldegg posted...

Does oh my yogg create a graphical glitch for all the classes or just for shahman lol

its for all classes. It's very annoying. The worst is when it's a spell that has an annoying sound effect. Because it does it for the entire game.

Man this basically became a spotify/podcast game for me I can't imagine playing with sound haha

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KokoroAkechi posted...

its for all classes. It's very annoying. The worst is when it's a spell that has an annoying sound effect. Because it does it for the entire game.

Yeah I had 3 separate effects on me one game at once, it was very weird
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KokoroAkechi posted...

Which one of these far watch post nerfs do you think is better (not more likely to happen)?

Mana cost increased by 1
HP reduced by 1
Takes 1 damage at the end of your opponents turn.

HP reduced by 1 looks like the most reasonable of the 3. Most removal deals 3 and not 4.

KokoroAkechi posted...

in my games with libram paladin getting sword early sees a big spike in my win rate more so than like any other card. I do think Sword is 100% being nerfed (probably to 3 mana)

Sword is like...the best card in standard and wild by the data, and is basically confirmed for a nerf.

Libram Secret Paladin isn't even the deck where sword looks strongest (because it ends up competing with some of the libram weapons), but yeah, it's so strong that you basically don't build paladin decks without it right now.

It's so strong that I wonder if 3 mana is a big enough nerf, but...yeah, it's probably enough. Weapons are very very sensitive to mana changes (harder to find 2/1s and 1/1s to attack on turn 3), and it makes it so that you can't curve smoothly from weapon on 2 to 3/4+draw on 3.

The other nerf I've seen suggested is to cut a durability (2 mana 1/2 weapon) but that nerf seems too small for how good the weapon is. Plenty of times especially when combining with librams that you are thinking about overwriting your weapon before the final swing in order to play something like Libram of Justice.

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It could draw the secrets instead of casting them.

Change it to say whenever you attack a minion, cast a secret from your deck.

It does nothing when you attack, but give it a deathrattle that casts three secrets at once.

After you attack, if you don't currently control a secret cast one from your deck.

I don't know, I just kind of life nerfs that aren't +1 mana or -1 stat.

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Camden posted...

I don't know, I just kind of life nerfs that aren't +1 mana or -1 stat.

Fair but...Blizzard doesn't like making nerfs like that, so I assume we're getting something really simple.

Drawing the secrets is the only other change I could see them doing, maaaaaybe. But I would still be surprised if they went for a functional change like that.

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I've decided I'm not going anywhere near ladder any more until they deal with mage. Paladin is strong, sure, but I don't openly feel bad losing to it.

Last night, I had a game where I was clearly winning on tempo, and then the mage squeezes in Deck of Lunacy. They proceed to summon a board full of 1/1's that summons a new board full of 1/1's for 4 mana, because clearly that's how Expendable Performers was meant to be played. I had an 8 health minion and two 3's. All gone. And I never got back while they proceeded to hit me with absurd plays on consecutive turns, culminating in Nagrand Slam on 7. And this feels like it's pretty representative of my play against mage. They've very clearly teched at this point for the paladin match-up, which carries over into any other board-based deck. Like, Brain Freeze and Apexis Blast are bad enough, along with getting 3 "free" minions off Font of Power. They don't need to be casting multiple Librams of Hope for 5 and putting the game out of range with all that healing that we know and love mage for, too. Deck of Lunacy felt like it was supposed to be a meme card, not a "take over the meta" card. But it's definitely done that.

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You should feel bad losing to either, because they are the complete opposite ends of the hearthstone spectrum - disgusting randomness and disgusting consistency.

I'd rather face mage since at least there's a chance (in theory) they will whiff. Paladin, you're just fucked.

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Honestly if they just nerf Lunacy for Mage it will still be a top tier deck: calling it now

Same for just Sword for Pally

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VeryInsane posted...

Honestly if they just nerf Lunacy for Mage it will still be a top tier deck: calling it now

And this is fine. I don't mind losing to cards that are (theoretically) balanced around the game systems and are actually intended to be playing as one cohesive unit, rather than playing a randemonium brawl where my opponent only gets the power spells from every class, but gets to cast multiples per turn.

FFDragon posted...

You should feel bad losing to either

You should feel bad for making me think that I should simply feel bad. =(

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I'd rather lose to Lunacy shenanigans than a consistent 40 or so damage straight from hand.

I'd rather lose to both than Pen Flinger 20 times a game.

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https://playhearthstone.com/en-us/news/23658923/20-0-2-patch-notes

The nerfs are here. And exactly in line with expectations.

Deck of Lunacy

• Old: [Costs 2] New: [Costs 4]

Sword of the Fallen

• Old: 1 Attack, 3 Durability New: 1 Attack, 2 Durability

Jandice Barov

• Old: [Costs 5] New: [Costs 6]

Pen Flinger

• Old: Battlecry: Deal 1 damage. Spellburst: Return this to your hand. New: Battlecry: Deal 1 damage to a minion. Spellburst: Return this to your hand.

Far Watch Post

• Old: 2 Attack, 4 Health New: 2 Attack, 3 Health

Morshan Watch Post

• Old: 3 Attack, 5 Health New: 3 Attack, 4 Health

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yesss

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Meh nerfs.

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Gut reaction is that Paladin is still going to be too strong but after some thought I think that the penflinger nerf really hurts a lot of their libram control style decks.

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skullbone posted...

Gut reaction is that Paladin is still going to be too strong but after some thought I think that the penflinger nerf really hurts a lot of their libram control style decks.

Yeah, I think the thing to do now if you want to keep playing paladin is to switch to aggro secret paladin.

Libram Paladin with pen flingers probably still exists as an anti-aggro deck that gets bopped by any deck running a win condition. But I expect that will put it into a similar category as most Priest decks right now (good if you expect a lot of aggro, bad against everything else).

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I feel like that sword nerf accomplishes relatively little, and paladin is basically otherwise untouched. Unless you were playing the slower libram version and can't fling pens any more, I guess.

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Most of the paladins I see on ladder were using pen flinger, so Id think thats a big nerf to them. Funny enough I never used flingers, I was ahead of the curve

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Hm I kinda like the BG buffs/reworks

Elementals felt too slow to go off, Hooktusk wont feel stupid OP but wont be awful, think its only good when both beasts and murlocs are in the game though.

Not sure how I feel about the nerfs, think the watch posts are still gonna be frequent and maybe a lesser secret package (no more avenge?) could be how libram operates but idk

Rogue might be hurt the most, pen Flinger was important for burn decks and Jandice was the midgame

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The sword nerf hurts the aggro secret paladin deck a lot more than the libram/mixed deck (libram decks run a lot of weapons anyway, so ended up overwriting the sword decently often. Secret deck basically always ended up using every charge of the sword).

But...yeah, aggro secret paladin looking like a deck that got hurt relatively little. I expected a sword nerf to 3 mana cause it would mess up their curve. Now they can still go sword on 2 into one of their many power 3 drops on 3.

The deck didn't run watchposts, didn't run pen flingers, so the impact of the other nerfs is mostly just to make other decks weaker against it.

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Secret Pallys worst matchup was watcher rogue too

yeah Im not sure if this shakes the meta much if at all

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The secret libram hyrbid deck with penflinger as it is is dead IMO. It has to add more threats i think to make up for the loss of the chip dmg. .

Am i the only person who thinks Lunacy to 4 is not a big enough nerf.

Actually, it occurs to me that poison/weapon rogue was barely nerfed either. I mean, they lose pen flingers, those are 100% getting cut from the list cause they were only included for the face damage, but they weren't running watch posts or Jandice.

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metroid composite posted...

Actually, it occurs to me that poison/weapon rogue was barely nerfed either. I mean, they lose pen flingers, those are 100% getting cut from the list cause they were only included for the face damage, but they weren't running watch posts or Jandice.

The Secret Pally matchup is like, 80/20 in favor of the Paladin

Think the Librams could bring back Broom and/or Braggart and lower the secret curve

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KokoroAkechi posted...

The secret libram hyrbid deck with penflinger as it is is dead IMO. It has to add more threats i think to make up for the loss of the chip dmg. .

Am i the only person who thinks Lunacy to 4 is not a big enough nerf.

I also think it's not a big enough nerf but we'll see I guess. Skipping turn 4 is usually a lot worse than skipping turn 2 though.

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LiquidOshawott posted...

Think the Librams could bring back Broom and/or Braggart and lower the secret curve

I tried a version with brooms and Lord Barov close to set launch.

It...didn't feel great; like it was going about 50-50, but this was against un-refined day one decks, and the problem was it just didn't have enough card draw, and topdecking either broom or barov with an empty hand was absolutely terrible.

Without a draw engine, it's probably playable but like tier 3 or low tier 2.

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Turn 7 from a Mage:

Reduce cost of all spells by 1, Draw 2 cards, Draw 3 cards and reduce their cost by 3, Summon 14 1/1s with rush, Deal 5 damage, Summon a 4/4 taunt, Draw 2 cards, Draw 2 cards, Gain a mana crystal, Gain 2 mana crystals, Summon 4 2/2s, Deal 2 damage. 47 mana worth of cards.

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metroid composite posted...

I tried a version with brooms and Lord Barov close to set launch.

It...didn't feel great; like it was going about 50-50, but this was against un-refined day one decks, and the problem was it just didn't have enough card draw, and topdecking either broom or barov with an empty hand was absolutely terrible.

Without a draw engine, it's probably playable but like tier 3 or low tier 2.

Well I thought you could still keep Sword, maybe Pen Flinger too (but its possible you swap for a more powerful late game card, the libram weapon or devout pupil are alright, Samuro can be a board clear in a way against aggro if it rises) but run less secrets (avenge could be cut since it has anti synergy with Knight anyway)


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