Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 378: My name is FD(A), and I Approve this Topic.

(+) Yeah! (+)

UltimaterializerX posted...

For a group of people that claims to hate Germans from the 1940s so much, you guys sure love to act like them.

Just say what you mean and stop using euphemistic language: "Fascism and dictatorial powers are okay if someone I root for does it."

Yeah remember when Germany in the 1940s said Get a vaccine we and all your leaders have or take a test to prove youre not sick with a pandemic?

Absolutely diabolical.

---

UltimaterializerX posted...

Can you please help me find the part of cdc.gov I'm talking about? I know the links were passed around recently.

I can try. To be honest I've never actually checked the actual CDC website, just reports on it, and am pretty lost on how to navigate it.

---

There are something like 7 posts icant see that cant be good.

The link is in the coronavirus topic, Ulti.

---

StealThisSheen posted...

So Larry Elder's campaign website has put up a form for people to report voter fraud, and is written in the past tense as if Newsom has already survived the recall and fraud was found in the final results.

Well Elder's anti-Newsom ads on Pandora radio start with the line "You remind me of the guy who stole my girlfriend in high school!" so him being a whiny loser is definitely on brand.

---

A preemptive strike. Interesting.

---

UltimaterializerX posted...

The press secretary said today the vaccine is not a requirement for illegals at the southern border. lmfao what in the world.

I want you to use all your brain cells to consider why this might not be exactly true.
---

oh mister border patrol agent here's my vaccination card so do I have your permission to cross into the country illegally now

---

I'm really annoyed seeing all these "remember what we were like on 9/12" takes.

Nevermind the horrible things we did as a result of 9/11, but on 9/12 we were all still shocked, horrified, and worried that there may be even more attacks imminent. The blind nationalism wasn't really yet on the radar.

---

Remember what we were like on 9/12.

Extremely afraid, confused, xenophobic, and racist?

Wow, thanks for the memories.


---

Biden should stay in this "I swear to god, I will turn this car around" cranky grandpa mode all the time tbqh

https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1436781434132471811

---

UltimaterializerX posted...

The press secretary said it bro, not me.

Do you have a source? It feels like there's context being missed.

---

StealThisSheen posted...

Do you have a source? It feels like there's context being missed.

I googled it, and its not that theyre not required, theyre also not even allowed to get it.

Just logically, I suspect theres a legal reason, whether domestic or international law is to blame is worth investigating.

---

Tbf I should have said missing context, because the statement itself has to be technically true as presented regardless of what was said (see post 309).

Now the reason they can't get it here is the same reason tourists can't either.
---

xp1337 posted...

Biden should stay in this "I swear to god, I will turn this car around" cranky grandpa mode all the time tbqh

https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1436781434132471811

I dont know if Biden actually is planning to stop after one term or if he just doesnt care, but I love his responses to the media on pulling out of Afghanistan and COVID lately. Some dems get so mealy mouthed with stuff like this and do these weak little half measures and responses so its nice to see someone just go fuck you youre wrong

---

Suprak the Stud posted...

I dont know if Biden actually is planning to stop after one term or if he just doesnt care, but I love his responses to the media on pulling out of Afghanistan and COVID lately. Some dems get so mealy mouthed with stuff like this and do these weak little half measures and responses so its nice to see someone just go fuck you youre wrong

This is what the Chapo boys refer to as Irish Joe, as opposed to his alternative form of Sleepy Joe, lol


---

Haha hey Ill take Irish Joe 10 times out of 10 against Sleepy Joe.

https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1436348418620891138?s=21

Have at it lol. I wish he had this same moxie for voting rights or healthcare reform but its a start at least.

---

joe heard you talkin shit, suprak

https://twitter.com/AndyKroll/status/1437028377634902017

(Should have been doing so a hell of a lot earlier but I digress)

---

I'll believe Democrats are serious about nuking the fillibuster when they actually do it and not a microsecond before.

---

I didn't say he'd actually be successful! I don't trust Manchin or Sinema to budge on this. They'll tank any chance of progress being made.

---

So here's a question: has anyone here ever personally seen a climate change denying relative or friend change their mind? Every six months to a year or so, my brother and I will randomly get in a heated debate about it, that usually ends with him getting extremely angry at me for saying we should...do more about climate change? That's about the extent of my opinion, but apparently I'm in a "death cult" despite being relatively optimistic on climate change compared with most people I know. During this argument, he literally told me storms are not in any way, shape, or form getting any worse and that if we do absolutely nothing, 50 years from now everything will be identical on the planet.

I guess with how in your face the effects are now, I wouldn't expect people with these beliefs to become more hardline denier than ever before. Man I can deal with my dad being a whackjob but it hurts a lot more when it's your brother. He also never got vaccinated.

But anyway, I'm really vowing to myself to never have this discussion with him again, for my own mental health. When he gets angry I inevitably get angry and worked up too (clear sign I need to start meditating again and get that shit under control). It's mentally and emotionally exhausting, he always comes out more convinced than ever of his alternate reality, making it ultimately demoralizing and pointless. But it's crazy how such a simple thing became so fanatical for him. Like...the movement went from "we are just skeptics okay" to "people who acknowledge the scientific consensus on climate change are a death cult (making us an actual suicide cult)."


---

StartTheMachine posted...

So here's a question: has anyone here ever personally seen a climate change denying relative or friend change their mind?

my experience is that you can convince people who are somewhat ambivalent about climate change to change their mind pretty well. it's impossible to do with people who are hardcore climate change deniers, though.

in general, i don't even get why these heated arguments about climate change and covid are still a thing in this day and age. we all have phones with all information readily available. if somebody blatantly denies the facts, there's obviously no point in debating anymore.

a good example is a debate i had in the pub last week with a friend of mine who refuses to get vaccinated. it went something like this:

woman: why would you NOT get vaccinated?
my friend: i heard that somebody took the johnson vaccine and died.
me: while that's very tragic, that's a rare exception. the amount of people who died from covid is a million times greater than the amount of people who died from the johnson vaccine.
my friend: yes, but i would still rather die from covid than die from a vaccine.
me: ...ok, this debate is over because this is obviously completely pointless.

lol

---

Heres the issue with climate change deniers, because I used to be one

It was never that I didnt think it was happening, it was I didnt care. I was very religious at the time so I thought climate change was irrelevant. I figured before climate change became bad enough to matter, Jesus would come again so it was irrelevant.

That I think is the biggest problem with convincing republicans to care about the environment. You basically have to first convince them that their religion isnt actually going to save them.

---

masterplum posted...

You basically have to first convince them that their religion isnt actually going to save them.

r/hermaincainaward proves this will never happen on a large scale

---

FFDragon posted...

r/hermaincainaward proves this will never happen on a large scale

Yep. Which is why I don't think it's a fixable problem, and why I think the only solution is to invent our way out of climate change.

I think the odds humanity voluntarily gives up enough short term to fix climate change is practically zero.

---

masterplum posted...

Heres the issue with climate change deniers, because I used to be one

It was never that I didnt think it was happening, it was I didnt care. I was very religious at the time so I thought climate change was irrelevant. I figured before climate change became bad enough to matter, Jesus would come again so it was irrelevant.

That I think is the biggest problem with convincing republicans to care about the environment. You basically have to first convince them that their religion isnt actually going to save them.

Wow that's a crazy take. The issue with global warming is that global warming and cooling always comes in cycles, and we don't have proper data to know if it has ever spiked like it has been because we smooth the data. We can't definitively say this hasn't happened before. And, even if it is a new phenomenon. It is due to population and unpreventable.

---

nobody's getting convinced of anything in the age of modern social media allowing everyone to find their own realities

---

Corrik7 posted...

And, even if it is a new phenomenon. It is due to population and unpreventable

Incredible way to end this post.

We dont know, and even if it is, we know its un preventable.

You do? Fucking lol

---

masterplum posted...

I think the odds humanity voluntarily gives up enough short term to fix climate change is practically zero

Corrik7 posted...

And, even if it is a new phenomenon. It is due to population and unpreventable.

A tragedy in two acts

---

Mr Lasastryke posted...

in general, i don't even get why these heated arguments about climate change and covid are still a thing in this day and age. we all have phones with all information readily available. if somebody blatantly denies the facts, there's obviously no point in debating anymore.

Ignorant people still get to vote the same as everybody else, though. Arguing with individuals about this stuff isn't going to change anyone's mind, but just agreeing to disagree isn't really an option either if you want to do anything about these problems.
---

Xeybozn posted...

Ignorant people still get to vote the same as everybody else, though. Arguing with individuals about this stuff isn't going to change anyone's mind, but just agreeing to disagree isn't really an option either if you want to do anything about these problems.

So what's your alternative?

---

I think, on a certain level, arguing whether climate change is man-made is legitimate. Humans are very bad at thinking about and understanding things on large time scales. (Personally I'll side with the scientists...)

However, the simple fact is that we are going to have to DEAL with the climate change, no matter the cause. And that's where the real problem is because no one wants to change their behavior because it is, as the documentary title stated, inconvenient.

This isn't like COVID where the cheap and easy solution is to get the vaccine and problem solved. (I know, I know, just go with it for the purposes of this argument...)

Rising sea levels means we might need to abandon or heavily fortify coastal cities. Same for desert areas that might have calamitous droughts. Switching from fossil fuels to renewable sources.

All these types of things take lots of money and societal changes, over a long period of time. But people are stubborn and lazy and will refuse to do anything they don't want to until the problem is literally going to kill them personally in the next hour/day/week.

---

https://youtu.be/U5wM5pesggE

I didn't realize corrik guest starred in South park

---

Seanchan posted...

All these types of things take lots of money and societal changes, over a long period of time. But people are stubborn and lazy and will refuse to do anything they don't want to until the problem is literally going to kill them personally in the next hour/day/week.

And even then, since a lot of the most obvious effects (rising sea levels) will affect the coasts which are, outside the southeast/Gulf Coast, largely Democratic areas you just know a pivot by a good chunk of them won't be "Oh shit, it's real." but "Look, God is punishing you heathen communists for your decadent and heretical ways." and so it'll be filed under "divine punishment" and not "man-made climate change."

so that'll be something fun to look forward to when my home is underwater because i had the "misfortune" to be born in an area near the coast.

In reality, the fact that we are now routinely seeing "once-in-a-hundred-years" storms and droughts ravage all over the country for over a decade now should be an obviously enough flashing alarm signal but it's just being handwaved away as coincidence or not even thought about as part of a bigger picture.

To say nothing of entire islands being erased by rising sea levels around the world the past decade because naturally these same people pretty much don't acknowledge anything outside the US. Even as some islands have already had to have their populations evacuate because of it.

---

....I didn't want to double post and change topics but... jfc.

https://twitter.com/dlippman/status/1437370272059957250

"At 1:25 pm on Jan 6, Stephanie Grisham texted Melania 'Do you want to tweet that peaceful protests are the right of every American, but there is no place for lawlessness and violence?' She wrote back 'no' as she was prepping for a WH photo shoot of a rug."

Grisham was (one of) the former WH Press Secretaries (who never held a press conference).

---

One day people will stop being shocked when right-wingers are violent thugs who hate democracy.

---

xp1337 posted...

In reality, the fact that we are now routinely seeing "once-in-a-hundred-years" storms and droughts ravage all over the country for over a decade now should be an obviously enough flashing alarm signal but it's just being handwaved away as coincidence or not even thought about as part of a bigger picture.

Yeah, my brother just flat out said this wasn't happening. He's never been the type to do that before, he's always been the type to use some sketchy pseudoscientist to "prove" the scientific consensus on climate change isn't real. Now he's just jumped the shark to denying reality.

When the facts don't back you up, deny they exist.

---

Yeah, I'm afraid I'm not sure what you can do to convince someone who has doubled down and entrenched themselves that deep.

The best "argument" I think you could probably make to such a person would probably be the fact that we've had islands in the Pacific literally become submerged over the past few decades complete with before/after pictures.

https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/three-islands-disappeared-past-year-climate-change-blame-ncna1015316

https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2017/09/09/new-study-finds-8-islands-swallowed-by-rising-sea-level/

(And both these articles are years old. This isn't just happening.)

It's been affecting the Pacific more because the rise has been greater there. The NBC article mentions that a remote Hawaiian island disappeared (and is shown in the before/after pictures). An uninhabited islet in Japan could no longer be found by a local newspaper. In terms of populated areas, the NBC article leads with an interview of the former president of a collection of Pacific islands who recounts the tale of a village on one of the islands that was once thriving but starting in the 70s the rising sea levels threatened the town and eventually overwhelmed the seawall they built to try and protect it.

NBC reports...

"It's no longer there," Tong said. "What we do have is a church sitting in the middle of the sea when the tide comes in."

But I wouldn't expect that to change someone's mind if the most basic facts of the rising sea levels, rising average global temperature, and alarming spike in frequency of extreme weather events has failed.

---

Samurai7 posted...

https://youtu.be/U5wM5pesggE

I didn't realize corrik guest starred in South park

Lol

---

xp1337 posted...

Yeah, I'm afraid I'm not sure what you can do to convince someone who has doubled down and entrenched themselves that deep.

The best "argument" I think you could probably make to such a person would probably be the fact that we've had islands in the Pacific literally become submerged over the past few decades complete with before/after pictures.

https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/three-islands-disappeared-past-year-climate-change-blame-ncna1015316

https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2017/09/09/new-study-finds-8-islands-swallowed-by-rising-sea-level/

(And both these articles are years old. This isn't just happening.)

It's been affecting the Pacific more because the rise has been greater there. The NBC article mentions that a remote Hawaiian island disappeared (and is shown in the before/after pictures). An uninhabited islet in Japan could no longer be found by a local newspaper. In terms of populated areas, the NBC article leads with an interview of the former president of a collection of Pacific islands who recounts the tale of a village on one of the islands that was once thriving but starting in the 70s the rising sea levels threatened the town and eventually overwhelmed the seawall they built to try and protect it.

NBC reports...

But I wouldn't expect that to change someone's mind if the most basic facts of the rising sea levels, rising average global temperature, and alarming spike in frequency of extreme weather events has failed.

Thanks for those links. I'm not going to bother unless/until we get in this kind of discussion again, and even then, it would probably be fruitless. When I've sent him these kinds of links before, he'll say "this was written by a journalist and there's no scientific data." And like...yeah, an island was here and it no longer is. We don't need to deeply and rigorously research what happened to the island. We fucking know.

I think what's fascinating about my brother is he's a pretty "into science" kind of person. He likes Sagan and Cosmos and anything to do with physics or astronomy. He's smart enough to perfectly explain general relativity, but anything to do with climate change is pseudoscience in his mind. Just the embodiment of cognitive dissonance.

Also if you want to actually lose respect for him, he seems to really love eugenics.

---

Apparently it just recently rained on Greenland's ice sheet for the first time known. I wonder what your brother would say to that.

---

StartTheMachine posted...

So here's a question: has anyone here ever personally seen a climate change denying relative or friend change their mind? Every six months to a year or so, my brother and I will randomly get in a heated debate about it, that usually ends with him getting extremely angry at me for saying we should...do more about climate change? That's about the extent of my opinion, but apparently I'm in a "death cult" despite being relatively optimistic on climate change compared with most people I know. During this argument, he literally told me storms are not in any way, shape, or form getting any worse and that if we do absolutely nothing, 50 years from now everything will be identical on the planet.

I guess with how in your face the effects are now, I wouldn't expect people with these beliefs to become more hardline denier than ever before. Man I can deal with my dad being a whackjob but it hurts a lot more when it's your brother. He also never got vaccinated.

But anyway, I'm really vowing to myself to never have this discussion with him again, for my own mental health. When he gets angry I inevitably get angry and worked up too (clear sign I need to start meditating again and get that shit under control). It's mentally and emotionally exhausting, he always comes out more convinced than ever of his alternate reality, making it ultimately demoralizing and pointless. But it's crazy how such a simple thing became so fanatical for him. Like...the movement went from "we are just skeptics okay" to "people who acknowledge the scientific consensus on climate change are a death cult (making us an actual suicide cult)."

I don't know enough people personally who disbelieve in climate change to be able to say if this is really applicable to this situation specifically, but generally people will only be willing to consider changing their mind if the person they are talking to is also genuinely willing to consider changing their mind - if the facts and arguments show that is the right course of action. That means being willing to consider any arguments the other person may make and evaluate them de novo, without any kind of appeal to authority.

Also, there are whole classes of problems where the answer really is that both sides can be right. For example, does the Earth revolve around the Sun or does the Sun revolve around the Earth? Per Einstein, both statements can be correct, or neither, because objective universal reference frames don't exist. There is no way to convince someone that the Earth revolves around the Sun because fundamentally the question is not decidable. However, if someone wants to argue that the orbital period of the Sun around the Earth is 24 hours rather than 1 year, then that position will lead to a very strange physics using strange coordinate systems.....which may lead to absurd results.

You may well be able to reach an agreement with someone that the Sun revolves around the Earth....and the orbital period is 1 solar year.

---

Leafeon13N posted...

There are something like 7 posts icant see that cant be good.

---

SovietOmega posted...

Apparently it just recently rained on Greenland's ice sheet for the first time known. I wonder what your brother would say to that.

Would probably focus on the "known"

---

Maniac64 posted...

Would probably focus on the "known"

Clearly it always rains in Greenland, why do you think it's so green? They just don't want to know it!

What? You say Greenland isn't green? It's actually very icy? Well then clearly it didn't actually rain, sheeple!

---

StealThisSheen posted...

Clearly it always rains in Greenland, why do you think it's so green? They just don't want to know it!

What? You say Greenland isn't green? It's actually very icy? Well then clearly it didn't actually rain, sheeple!

Obviously Erik the Red was telling the truth and it was green when he discovered it. At some point later the climate must have gotten colder.

---

StartTheMachine posted...

When I've sent him these kinds of links before, he'll say "this was written by a journalist and there's no scientific data." And like...yeah, an island was here and it no longer is. We don't need to deeply and rigorously research what happened to the island. We fucking know.

I think what's fascinating about my brother is he's a pretty "into science" kind of person. He likes Sagan and Cosmos and anything to do with physics or astronomy. He's smart enough to perfectly explain general relativity, but anything to do with climate change is pseudoscience in his mind. Just the embodiment of cognitive dissonance.

my brother's a phd student that's completely fallen down the rabbit hole over COVID and hates all media, going on about conspiracy theories collaborating with the government to control everyone, instead opting for youtube videos where people can say the real truth

(and yes he's also surrounded by anti-SJW, anti-feminism shit, and stories about reverse racism. he's in very deep.)

---