Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 378: My name is FD(A), and I Approve this Topic.

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Ashethan
09/17/21 11:40:47 PM
#455:


Corrik7 posted...
Do it better.

That's not a solution.

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Corrik7
09/17/21 11:55:07 PM
#456:


Ashethan posted...
That's not a solution.
Sounds like you just don't like the answer.

They wanted to withdraw also. They wished to do it without having a crisis of evacuating and soldiers dying and equipment being basically gifted to the Taliban.

It's pretty obvious what was wanted. You asking for a hypothetical "solution" that is hypothetical and also just going to be shot down regardless because it is a hypothetical is silly.

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xp1337
09/18/21 12:20:59 AM
#457:


masterplum posted...
Another really interesting one

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/09/blame-the-bobos-creative-class/619492/
This seems really self-aggrandizing as well, albeit in a different way than the Frum piece was.

The right word is escaping me for this type of guilt complex but there's a lot of conflation and overstating going on in Brooks's description of the "creative class" he professes to be a part of is and to be at fault for our current political divide as well as a misdiagnosis and some blindness on what's happening on the right.

Like it's kind of weird to read because he seems to be over-inflating the power and influence of the group he claims to be part of... while at the same time blaming it for a myriad of issues which it isn't really entirely responsible for.

I actually think a microcosm of the whole pretension of the piece can be found in this one sentence. He asks rhetorically, "So who's of a higher social class? The guy in the boat, or the kid with the fancy words?"

  1. This is an easy question - It's the guy in the boat. Was this supposed to be a stumper?
  2. The "fancy words" in question here is "Abolish ICE" which isn't very fancy. For someone who places the blame at the feet of the elite snobbery and condescension towards the (white) working class he sure is acting like a model example in categorizing that as "fancy."
  • I purposely parenthesize the "white" in white working class there because with perhaps one or two exceptions where he's mostly alluding to someone else's writings he seems to default to "working class" which just *claps* isn't *claps* the *claps* same. This has been a personal pet peeve of mine since coverage of the 2016 election liked to conflate WWC and working class as the same to explain Trump's win. Trump performed well with the WWC, Clinton still won the rest of it. Don't put this shit on everyone else. It's literally the "economic anxiety" shtick all over again.
While he correctly notes some movement within the Democratic party re: less of a focus on things like unions in favor of social/cultural issues it's not like Republicans picked it up. It just ended up fading behind a lot of culture war stuff. Union power diminishing within the Dems is problematic but where he places the blame on, again, this "creative class" I'll note that it was the 2004 Bush campaign under Rove's direction that really pushed super hard on making social culture war stuff front and center, thinking that by pushing it across the states they could drive turnout in Bush's favor because, at the time, they felt they'd benefit from opposition to gay marriage, etc. But, though on a far lesser scale than what Trump unleashed, once they started feeding their base what they really wanted (instead of the GOP elite's dreams of unregulated late-stage capitalism) they couldn't really dial it back and so we've been "fighting" it ever since - again, we've been on this trajectory for a loooong time now - Trump just threw a barrel of gasoline on it. But secondly, I'll note that this isn't some new phenomena that magically arose over the past two decades or so that would encompass his thesis here - the upper class (economics) has always been anti-union and an element of it has always existed in both parties. Just now the Dems were fighting political battles on more fronts and those of them within the Dems had a prime opportunity to bury it in the priority list for the party as a whole. This is bad and should be undone (though not to the detriment of other issues, we can walk and chew gum at the same time) but wasn't some "creative class" caused problem.

On his misdiagnosis of the right and how they've been "shut out" of the "creative class" when it's more like, for once they started facing something closer to actual competition and took their ball and went home and started their own parallel operation. Conservative voices are shut out of the mainstream media? Last I checked Fox News is still the #1 network in the ratings. You've got Newsmax trying to toe the line between the crazed parallel world of the fringe right and mainstream (they're carried by a ton of cable providers!), and then OANN for those who even those two aren't quite enough for. Sinclair dominates local news which is the news that arguably has the most insidious impact. So miss me with that, really.

This is a complex issue with many, many, many contributing factors but if we're looking for primary causes you're going to come a lot closer to the mark with any of: The Southern Strategy, Gingrich's antics in the run-up to the '90s, and racial backlash to Obama's election than anything this article tries for.

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xp1337
09/18/21 1:01:11 AM
#458:


Sorry to double post but if I were to arm-chair internet psychoanalyze the sentiment behind both the Frum and Brooks pieces it comes off to me as a desperate desire and need to rationalize how many people within their circle, whether personally or professionally, ended up becoming radicalized. Because it happened, in their eyes, so quickly and suddenly under Trump they latch on to the idea that Trump was a unique, aberrant factor responsible for the change -- these people may have been Republicans, or identified as staunch conservatives, but we were always able to put politics to the side and have a beer together so it can't be anything inherent to that, after all, right? It was something unique to Trump.

Except now they're working backwards - having determined their conclusion and reaching backwards to find a rationale to have it all line up. And in doing so, you can almost always pick out the same common blindspots. This topic has gone over them before but just to do again -- Trump wasn't some unique event here, he was the next step on a trajectory the Republican Party has been heading towards for over 25-50 years. If there's anything unique about him it's that the accelerator on that path got pushed through the floor with his candidacy, campaign, and administration because they had the misfortune of finding a uniquely terrible person to become head of the party.

The rise of social and cultural issues taking a forefront position in our politics? Like I said, this was an intentional tactical decision on the part of the 2004 Bush campaign who pushed to have states add social issue initiatives to the ballot in the hopes of driving the base to the polls to secure a win over Kerry. Before that in 2000 they infamously played on a racist lie in the Republican primary to defeat McCain. GOP strategists like Rove didn't just throw darts at a wall for what might help energize their base with those kinds of tactics, they understood those urges existed in their base and intentionally looked to stoke them. They simply believed they could control them and keep the intellectual conservative think-tank types really running the show. They were wrong.

The same kind of "firebrand" politicking didn't start there either. Gingrich staked everything on the same kind of fiery, partisan, demonizing rhetoric and showmanship back in the '80s. The House literally had to change the C-SPAN camera rules because Gingrich kept cutting these promos where he made it looked like he was on the House floor "calling out" Democrats to their faces... when in reality he was speaking in an empty chamber. Back then the camera just stayed locked on the speaker so you'd just see him and maybe a staff member or two of his in the background. The reason they pan around the room on occasion? That was put in place to show the actual state of the House in response to his behavior. Then when he and the GOP were rewarded for this stuff in 1994 he went all-in on pushing the Clinton impeachment and lost hard on it which was about the only rebuke they got out of all this but he showed the path was there to be followed.

And of course before all that was Nixon and the Southern Strategy which sought to take in all the Southern Dixiecrats, segregationists, and racists because LBJ passing the Civil Rights Act was seen as a political opportunity. As a result we had the party re-alignment where the two parties basically switched. In making an intentional play to bring those people into the fold they basically set themselves up for much of the above. Reagan played on it with "welfare queens" and then Trump simply elevated it to the next level but again it was not a new impulse, the seeds were planted back here.

There's more too, a lot more, but I've already written a whole lot more than I ever intended for now.

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Ashethan
09/18/21 1:09:59 AM
#459:


Corrik7 posted...
Sounds like you just don't like the answer.

No, your answer is just pointless.

"Do it better."

If your boss asked you for a solution, I doubt "Just do it better." would be an answer they'd accept.

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Kenri
09/18/21 1:18:53 AM
#460:


xp1337 posted...
I purposely parenthesize the "white" in white working class there because with perhaps one or two exceptions where he's mostly alluding to someone else's writings he seems to default to "working class" which just *claps* isn't *claps* the *claps* same. This has been a personal pet peeve of mine since coverage of the 2016 election liked to conflate WWC and working class as the same to explain Trump's win. Trump performed well with the WWC, Clinton still won the rest of it. Don't put this shit on everyone else. It's literally the "economic anxiety" shtick all over again.
I read this article weeks ago and don't remember it perfectly (and don't care to reread it) but this was my biggest take away as well. Straight up embarrassing how easily and repeatedly the author implies (assumes?) that all working class people are white.

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Leafeon13N
09/18/21 1:41:31 AM
#461:


Corrik7 posted...
Sounds like you just don't like the answer.

They wanted to withdraw also. They wished to do it without having a crisis of evacuating and soldiers dying and equipment being basically gifted to the Taliban.

It's pretty obvious what was wanted. You asking for a hypothetical "solution" that is hypothetical and also just going to be shot down regardless because it is a hypothetical is silly.
So take all the equip from the afghan military.

Watch as they have no leverage so instead of peaceful surrender the Taliban just brutally murders our former allies.

With a slower withdrawal our own troops are now guarding a losing battle. We have more casualties.

With a larger civil war going on ISIS K plans more attacks, also killing more Americans.

Your plan sucks.
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Corrik7
09/18/21 3:38:40 AM
#462:


Leafeon13N posted...
So take all the equip from the afghan military.

Watch as they have no leverage so instead of peaceful surrender the Taliban just brutally murders our former allies.

With a slower withdrawal our own troops are now guarding a losing battle. We have more casualties.

With a larger civil war going on ISIS K plans more attacks, also killing more Americans.

Your plan sucks.
"You asking for a hypothetical "solution" that is hypothetical and also just going to be shot down regardless because it is a hypothetical is silly."

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masterplum
09/18/21 8:12:05 AM
#463:


xp1337 posted...
I actually think a microcosm of the whole pretension of the piece can be found in this one sentence. He asks rhetorically, "So who's of a higher social class? The guy in the boat, or the kid with the fancy words?"

I dont think its as obvious as you are making it, as I think she accurately points out you cant just have more money to be more powerful any more. Elon Musk became one of the richest people in the world by being cool his companies valuation and thus his stock values are wildly out of line from fundamentals because he has cultural wealth.

So in a way, cultural power has magnified his wealth, and that same phenomenon works as you go down the traditional wealth chain. Companies are more often specifically looking for smart independent people. Ive interviewed at 4-5 jobs that straight gave an IQ test as part of the interview process.

Cancel culture doesnt discriminate based on wealth. Weve seen low class workers lose their jobs, but also high class individuals like Papa John who previously would have been nearly invincible due to their upper class wealth.

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Peace___Frog
09/18/21 8:56:57 AM
#464:


Ty xp for more eloquently expressing the issues with these silly kinds of retrospective pieces than I could

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Inviso
09/18/21 9:27:16 AM
#465:


Corrik7 posted...
"You asking for a hypothetical "solution" that is hypothetical and also just going to be shot down regardless because it is a hypothetical is silly."

I think they're asking for a solution, period. It'd be one thing to claim "you're going to shoot down any solution because it's a hypothetical" if an actual solution was being proposed. But when the response is just "do it better" or "I would have have done it better", you're just making a claim in bad faith with zero effort to back it up. It's like Trump claiming to have a better plan to replace Obamacare, and then four years later, still never showed us anything of the sort. At a certain point, vague rhetoric leads to people abandoning any critical thinking skills and becoming blind, partisan sheep who just want to blame someone for complicated problems.

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Mr Lasastryke
09/18/21 9:43:40 AM
#466:


Corrik7 posted...
"You asking for a hypothetical "solution" that is hypothetical and also just going to be shot down regardless because it is a hypothetical is silly."

lol nice gaslighting.

"asking for a solution is stupid because you're going to hate whatever solution i'm going to provide anyway!"

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Ashethan
09/18/21 9:49:09 AM
#467:


Corrik7 posted...
"You asking for a hypothetical "solution" that is hypothetical and also just going to be shot down regardless because it is a hypothetical is silly."

You proposing a 'solution' that isn't a solution is what's silly. It's stupid partisan politics. And maybe your alt-right friends will buy it, but nobody with half a brain cell will.

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kevwaffles
09/18/21 9:57:48 AM
#468:


I think I'm going to read Corrik's posts in the voice of Vic from RvB from now on.

"Here are your orders for winning the war. Eliminate the enemy. Okay, also, try to do better than you are currently doing. And, please win, thank you."
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Corrik7
09/18/21 10:23:56 AM
#469:


kevwaffles posted...
I think I'm going to read Corrik's posts in the voice of Vic from RvB from now on.

"Here are your orders for winning the war. Eliminate the enemy. Okay, also, try to do better than you are currently doing. And, please win, thank you."
Well, someone asked what the general public who are upset with it wanted. The general public wanted to withdraw without a panic at an airport, literally gifting materials to an enemy, and dead servicemen. It's like common sense. The general public doesn't have to give literal logistical coordination and such to know what they wanted.

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Dancedreamer
09/18/21 10:30:09 AM
#470:


Corrik7 posted...
Well, someone asked what the general public who are upset with it wanted. The general public wanted to withdraw without a panic at an airport, literally gifting materials to an enemy, and dead servicemen. It's like common sense. The general public doesn't have to give literal logistical coordination and such to know what they wanted.

The General Public wants Universal Healthcare. So let's do that.

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xp1337
09/18/21 10:31:43 AM
#471:


masterplum posted...
I dont think its as obvious as you are making it, as I think she accurately points out you cant just have more money to be more powerful any more.
Is it though? On one hand we have someone who has the disposable income for boat and a ton of political campaign merch and is among culturally like-minded people and so clearly possesses a sense of belonging and is secure enough in their position to chat with a journalist. Against a nameless protester that this person and the journalist are only seeing from afar because, y'know, they're on the boat. Hell, even if you grant the premise some credibility and grant "wokeness" some "cultural value" in the manner Brooks describes it's a poor example because Abolish ICE never really "caught on" in a large, mainstream sense so any accusations of "Oh, he's virtue signalling for social cred" just fall absolutely flat. It's possible this protester is in a privileged position but from the information presented? Nah, it's an easy call.

Like I said, it's a microcosm of the piece because it's as if Brooks identifies a character issue with himself, does some self-reflection I guess, but then somehow enlarges it from a personal issue to a societal one and lays at its feet many of the societal ills he sees around him. As I said, for a piece that seems to lay the blame for cultural snobbery and condescension as a primary driver in polarization the piece itself is absolutely laden with it itself in ways I'm pretty damn sure it doesn't intend to be (because it's often in the framing and diction rather than, you know, the actual instances or examples he cites.) Like it presupposes a whole lot there and feels targeted to an audience that agrees with him. Take this example we're discussing, it appears to presuppose the reader will react with confusion and headscratching that he posed a difficult and complex question there when the only reason for hesitation I see is if you react in the exact manner he criticizes in the rest of the piece and go like "Eww, a Trump voter, how classless" and that reaction overpowers all else. Which is the exact, if not even more extreme, kind of behavior he says is as fault... only I think he's doing it unknowingly.

And the entire piece is similar in a sense that it feels designed for readers who already share his conclusions that there's some liberal elite infestation in culture that has served to spawn societal ills. But I think it crumples pretty easily over even the barest scrutiny.

Such as...

masterplum posted...
Elon Musk became one of the richest people in the world by being cool his companies valuation and thus his stock values are wildly out of line from fundamentals because he has cultural wealth.

So in a way, cultural power has magnified his wealth, and that same phenomenon works as you go down the traditional wealth chain. Companies are more often specifically looking for smart independent people. Ive interviewed at 4-5 jobs that straight gave an IQ test as part of the interview process.

Cancel culture doesnt discriminate based on wealth. Weve seen low class workers lose their jobs, but also high class individuals like Papa John who previously would have been nearly invincible due to their upper class wealth.
I feel this is a misdiagnosis of what's going on here. If you want to "blame" a culprit for what you're describing here I'd say you're looking for the internet. Or more precisely, the greater access and democratization of many of the processes, systems, and levers that had once been the exclusive domain of the privileged and powerful that the internet provided to the masses.

Let's start with Musk. What's really going on here, IMO, is the exposure of some flaws in the stock market itself. I think the Gamestop situation earlier actually demonstrates this quite nicely. What you had for over a century was essentially a big gambling game that only really allowed the rich and powerful a seat at the table. Sure, access to it was theoretically available to the middle class, but if you wanted to play at the high roller tables you had to be rich. Only these tables had rules - not the laws, which were regularly flouted if not written by these same people (and then still flouted) of a more unwritten sort (again, ironically, the same kind of thing Brooks will go on to criticize in his piece just in a completely different kind of context and off-base, in my view.) They were sort of reigned in a bit following the Great Depression but by the 70s, 80s, and 90s they were itching for the old, unregulated game pretty hard and dismantled most of those protections - and promptly crashed the market again in 2008. Anyway, to the main point, with the rise of the internet, and in this case specifically, stock trading apps, this game become much more available to just about anyone - and that meant a lot of people who weren't wealthy and didn't know - or didn't care - about those unwritten rules. They identified ways to basically game the system with Gamestop and the old class went absolutely nuts and moved to shut that shit down immediately. This wasn't because Gamestop suddenly gained a massive amount of cultural influence lol, it's just that once a bunch more people got involved they started stress testing the old system in ways it hadn't before and identified flaws in it and exploited them. The basic exploit was understood by the old, rich class but they basically had an unwritten understanding to only use it on their terms and say-so. Musk, I would argue, identified a similar flaw and realized that if he could develop a cult-like following (I use cult in a lesser form, like you would with "cult hit") you could mobilize that following to bend the system to work in your favor beyond what it normally would allow pre-Internet because you could leverage these new players in the game to your advantage.

Now, as to cancel culture. I've referred to this article in the past when discussing the issue, because I still think it is extremely insightful as to the actual situation surrounding "cancel culture."

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/22/opinion/colin-kaepernick-nfl.html

Honestly, Ta-Nehisi Coates states the case far better than I ever could and if you haven't read the piece you really should, but to summarize: "Cancel culture" has existed forever. Spanning back centuries. The Dixie Chicks during the Bush era, the treatment of Japanese Americans during WWII, the Compromise of 1877 "cancelling" the black South. So, the recent backlash over it now from the right isn't because "cancelling" was invented in the past few years, it's because all of a sudden the internet democratized the process and allowed ordinary people to operate the levers of the process against whomsoever they desired.

I would pause here to add that addition to the democratization of cancel culture that is being objected to by the right now that it no longer flows exclusively from the powerful down to the vulnerable but also in many instances the targets. Because they're still absolutely fine with, and even seem to relish "cancelling" people themselves, but only when it is the "right" people. Frequently the objections and outrage fly when the subjects aren't the kind of people that were frequently cancelled in the past because all of a sudden there are consequences they never had to face before.

Hitting the character limit so I'll wrap abruptly here, sorry.

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kevwaffles
09/18/21 10:32:14 AM
#472:


I want a billion dollars. I should have that. It's just common sense!
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Dancedreamer
09/18/21 10:34:43 AM
#473:


kevwaffles posted...
I want a billion dollars. I should have that. It's just common sense!

Shh! Don't go there. WE could get universal healthcare, and anytime they ask how we're going to pay for it, we just say "We just will!" It's the magic free pass we need!

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RaidenGarai
09/18/21 10:39:12 AM
#474:


Mexicos going to pay for our Universal Helathcare

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Mr Lasastryke
09/18/21 10:39:43 AM
#475:


Corrik7 posted...
Well, someone asked what the general public who are upset with it wanted. The general public wanted to withdraw without a panic at an airport, literally gifting materials to an enemy, and dead servicemen. It's like common sense. The general public doesn't have to give literal logistical coordination and such to know what they wanted.

so then, their issue isn't actually with biden withdrawing. they just thought his execution sucked.

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Xeybozn
09/18/21 10:50:34 AM
#476:


If I had to analyze the thinking behind articles like the Brooks and Frum ones, I'd say it goes something like this:

1: Anti-Trump Republicans believe that they have the right ideas about how to run the country, and also that those ideas are in fact what most of America wants.

2: But then Trump comes along and convinces stupid people to turn on those ideas. How could this have happened when everybody loves these ideas?

3: So obviously, the big problem in American politics is that neither party supports the goals of anti-Trump Republicans. All the country needs is a rational party to champion those ideas. Since the GOP has gone completely insane, that party must be the Democrats.

4: But the Democrats aren't doing that because they are terrible and hate America.
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Dancedreamer
09/18/21 11:18:12 AM
#477:


Mr Lasastryke posted...
so then, their issue isn't actually with biden withdrawing. they just thought his execution sucked.

His execution did suck, but I'm not sure it could've been done much better.

Are we going to remove the weapons from the Afghan army before leaving, leaving them to fight without the weapons, showing zero confidence in them?

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Espeon
09/18/21 11:29:52 AM
#478:


Corrik7 posted...
Well, someone asked what the general public who are upset with it wanted. The general public wanted to withdraw without a panic at an airport, literally gifting materials to an enemy, and dead servicemen. It's like common sense. The general public doesn't have to give literal logistical coordination and such to know what they wanted.

All Im saying is that this is a problem. A lot of issues in this country are extremely complex, yet most of the population just wants a three word slogan to fix everything, so they dont have to think. Being okay with do it better means never having to actually understand the situation in any way. That attitude is what kept us in Afghanistan for twenty years in the first place; because it was a poorly thought out war that was inevitably going to be a shitshow when the U.S. withdrew, and no one wanted to be caught holding the bag when that shitshow went down.

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masterplum
09/18/21 11:51:46 AM
#479:


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masterplum
09/18/21 12:03:23 PM
#480:


Despite my qualms with AOC, this is amazing



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Corrik7
09/18/21 12:24:29 PM
#481:


Espeon posted...
All Im saying is that this is a problem. A lot of issues in this country are extremely complex, yet most of the population just wants a three word slogan to fix everything, so they dont have to think. Being okay with do it better means never having to actually understand the situation in any way. That attitude is what kept us in Afghanistan for twenty years in the first place; because it was a poorly thought out war that was inevitably going to be a shitshow when the U.S. withdrew, and no one wanted to be caught holding the bag when that shitshow went down.
Maybe, but I also think it is a bit defensive and unrealistic to think that there was literally no way to have done this withdrawal better also. So, while many people don't have a solution themselves how to have done it better, I don't think it's unfair for them to have wanted it to have gone better either.

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Corrik7
09/18/21 12:27:45 PM
#482:


Mr Lasastryke posted...
so then, their issue isn't actually with biden withdrawing. they just thought his execution sucked.
Yeah, leaving wasn't the issue. Hell Trump was gonna leave also. It was how it was done.

And someone said it would have been a slaughter and they have no leverage for peace if we didn't do what we did. Um, they literally walked right through with basically no resistance against an army on paper that never existed. There was no leverage. If they wanted to slaughter people, they would have regardless.

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Inviso
09/18/21 12:54:13 PM
#483:


Corrik7 posted...
Maybe, but I also think it is a bit defensive and unrealistic to think that there was literally no way to have done this withdrawal better also. So, while many people don't have a solution themselves how to have done it better, I don't think it's unfair for them to have wanted it to have gone better either.

I agree that there is probably some way the withdrawal could have gone better, but at the same time, I've neither done the research, nor do I understand the complex geopolitical issues revolving around Afghanistan. So ,I don't feel like I have any business saying "You should've just done it better", because I don't know the constraints we're working with. Even the things I do know (twenty years of mismanagement and moved goalposts regarding the end goal of the war, Trump drawing down our troops after making a deal with the Taliban and releasing 5,000 freedom fighters, congress refusing to take any action that would give any hope of benefiting our Afghani allies) still leave a plethora of unanswered questions.

I just feel like accepting this idea that "do it better" is a reasonable response to a complicated issue...brings up so many greater problems with our society. And yeah, there is a certain level of defensiveness, specifically because people are blaming Biden for not having an easy solution to an extremely complicated problem. It's this same backlash that caused us to stay in Afghanistan for nearly two decades in the first place. We should expect better of our population; we should be smarter than this. That's where my head is at.

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Kenri
09/18/21 12:55:59 PM
#484:


masterplum posted...
Cancel culture doesnt discriminate based on wealth. Weve seen low class workers lose their jobs, but also high class individuals like Papa John who previously would have been nearly invincible due to their upper class wealth.
Papa John is still a billionaire, he didn't suddenly lose his wealth just because he lost his job. That's about as invincible to cancel culture as you can get.

(Also that doctor's coat should say "Vax the Antis" if it wanted to be provocative, "Vax the Arms" is kinda nonsense.)

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masterplum
09/18/21 1:00:15 PM
#485:


Kenri posted...
(Also that doctor's coat should say "Vax the Antis" if it wanted to be provocative, "Vax the Arms" is kinda nonsense.)

Well yeah, shes a doctor. She's making a joke not a political statement

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Corrik7
09/18/21 1:04:04 PM
#486:


Inviso posted...
I agree that there is probably some way the withdrawal could have gone better, but at the same time, I've neither done the research, nor do I understand the complex geopolitical issues revolving around Afghanistan. So ,I don't feel like I have any business saying "You should've just done it better", because I don't know the constraints we're working with. Even the things I do know (twenty years of mismanagement and moved goalposts regarding the end goal of the war, Trump drawing down our troops after making a deal with the Taliban and releasing 5,000 freedom fighters, congress refusing to take any action that would give any hope of benefiting our Afghani allies) still leave a plethora of unanswered questions.

I just feel like accepting this idea that "do it better" is a reasonable response to a complicated issue...brings up so many greater problems with our society. And yeah, there is a certain level of defensiveness, specifically because people are blaming Biden for not having an easy solution to an extremely complicated problem. It's this same backlash that caused us to stay in Afghanistan for nearly two decades in the first place. We should expect better of our population; we should be smarter than this. That's where my head is at.
Well, you have to realize I listed a good bit of new criticisms coming up about him. While people zeroed in on one, there was many. And what is forming when all of it is put together is a bumbling idiot criticism.

I will admit when people i talk politics with in real life bring up this stuff, I actually agree with them. Recently it has looked bad. I explain that a president can do bad and good. They all do. Even people who were against Trump if not a partisan polarized hack have to admit he had some decent ideas and did some good things. It isn't someone is bad or good. It's a mixture. It's finding where it balances out at.


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masterplum
09/18/21 1:04:22 PM
#487:


Kenri posted...
Papa John is still a billionaire, he didn't suddenly lose his wealth just because he lost his job. That's about as invincible to cancel culture as you can get.

I mean he got separated from his spouse shortly afterward and disappeared from relevance. In an interview he said his pizza now doesn't taste as good.

He lost his power, and honestly the difference between having a wealth of 500 million dollars and 50 billion dollars is pretty negligible in terms of what you can do.

I bet Papa John would rather be much less rich and happier

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ChaosTonyV4
09/18/21 1:07:18 PM
#488:


Thats the thing, with all his money he could exercise incredible power if he wanted to.

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masterplum
09/18/21 1:09:31 PM
#489:


ChaosTonyV4 posted...
Thats the thing, with all his money he could exercise incredible power if he wanted to.

But that's the point. He can't, because other rich people don't want to associate with him.

Obviously moreso than someone who isn't rich, but do you think he has more political power than AOC for instance? I don't think so even if he is worth 100x more, and that is a huge departure from traditional class structure where the rich controlled everything

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Xeybozn
09/18/21 1:11:56 PM
#490:


masterplum posted...
He can't, because other rich people don't want to associate with him.

Are you sure about that? It didn't stop Donald Trump.
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Kenri
09/18/21 1:17:30 PM
#491:


masterplum posted...
I bet Papa John would rather be much less rich and happier
I bet he thinks he's entitled to both!

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Inviso
09/18/21 1:18:33 PM
#492:


Corrik7 posted...
Well, you have to realize I listed a good bit of new criticisms coming up about him. While people zeroed in on one, there was many. And what is forming when all of it is put together is a bumbling idiot criticism.

I will admit when people i talk politics with in real life bring up this stuff, I actually agree with them. Recently it has looked bad. I explain that a president can do bad and good. They all do. Even people who were against Trump if not a partisan polarized hack have to admit he had some decent ideas and did some good things. It isn't someone is bad or good. It's a mixture. It's finding where it balances out at.

I'll be honest with you...some of those things on the list, I haven't even heard about (or I can't even tell what the "Australian submarine" thing is without looking it up for further context) because of how ultimately irrelevant they are. The Afghanistan withdrawal was a shitshow, but it's a lot more complicated than just "do it better". The drone strike is fucked up though, and even more fucked up is the fact that it'll probably be forgotten in a week's time, because ultimately our country doesn't really give a shit about foreign casualties of our military.

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Corrik7
09/18/21 2:17:45 PM
#493:


Inviso posted...
I'll be honest with you...some of those things on the list, I haven't even heard about (or I can't even tell what the "Australian submarine" thing is without looking it up for further context) because of how ultimately irrelevant they are. The Afghanistan withdrawal was a shitshow, but it's a lot more complicated than just "do it better". The drone strike is fucked up though, and even more fucked up is the fact that it'll probably be forgotten in a week's time, because ultimately our country doesn't really give a shit about foreign casualties of our military.
The French just recalled their ambassadors to the United States for the first time in modern history over the Australian nuclear submarine issue.

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Suprak the Stud
09/18/21 2:27:09 PM
#494:


France throwing a hissy fit because Australia is getting nuclear subs from the US/UK and not conventional subs from them isnt something anyone cares about unless you work in the French defense sector.

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Espeon
09/18/21 2:30:54 PM
#495:


Corrik7 posted...
The French just recalled their ambassadors to the United States for the first time in modern history over the Australian nuclear submarine issue.

See, youre pointing out a retaliation I hadnt even heard about, to a second issue I ALSO hadnt heard about. Which really makes it seem like actively trying to find fault, rather than good faith issues with the administration.

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Suprak the Stud
09/18/21 2:32:15 PM
#496:


Its also an issue that will change the votes of zero American voters. Is this something thats really getting play on right wing sites?

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Leafeon13N
09/18/21 2:35:19 PM
#497:


Corrik7 posted...
The French just recalled their ambassadors to the United States for the first time in modern history over the Australian nuclear submarine issue.
Over a deal that benefits the US.

America first and all that, right?
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masterplum
09/18/21 2:43:08 PM
#498:


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xp1337
09/18/21 2:45:31 PM
#499:


Suprak the Stud posted...
France throwing a hissy fit because Australia is getting nuclear subs from the US/UK and not conventional subs from them isnt something anyone cares about unless you work in the French defense sector.
Especially because they got their deal by swooping in and taking it from Japan similarly 5 years ago.

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Corrik7
09/18/21 6:25:32 PM
#500:


Espeon posted...
See, youre pointing out a retaliation I hadnt even heard about, to a second issue I ALSO hadnt heard about. Which really makes it seem like actively trying to find fault, rather than good faith issues with the administration.
Everytime Macron made any comment about Trump it was beamed to the moon. Macron saying an ally betrayed them and quotes from allies saying they thought Biden would be better than Trump and isn't. Who cares! Playing both ends there

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