Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 378: My name is FD(A), and I Approve this Topic.

(+) Yeah! (+)

The effective end of Roe vs Wade.

It was something I specifically brought up in 2016 when this crowd was advocating for Jill Stein and didnt understand why I was voting Clinton. Two of these people live in Michigan. I feel like if I point out they are in part responsible for this, theyll do some combination of yelling at me/blocking me and it would basically end the friendship at that point. Im not as close with them as I used to be back in college anyway and there has been tension between us before because of this debate.

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Ohhh, yeah. Now that you mention it, I've been seeing a lot of people quoting dozens of "SCOTUS doesn't matter!" tweets from people in 2016

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Vote for best outcomes. Your vote doesn't have to be, and possibly should not be, a purest expression of your most idealized political views, or if it is, do it in primaries. There's more than one way to fight for positive political change, and doing it by casting novelty votes at the ballot box is one of the worst ways to do it. A democrat need not be perfect, or even good at all, to be a better choice than the equivalent republican. Unless you are a truly diehard believer in accelerationism, and if you think accelerationism is a good political strategy, the pandemic era should give you pause. I'm pretty tired of people who can't get a hold of this.

On the other hand, I'm pretty sick and tired of relitigating 2016 over and over. Fuck it. I'm not going to blame Jill Stein voters when there are so many other far worse people to blame. I can only hope the Trump presidency was bad enough to be a lesson in why voting anti-Republican is key going forward.

I fully understand not wanted to relitigate something weve been over a dozen times already. I also feel like if Im ever going to have a reason to vent about this again, it would be now as the exact thing most people were warning about came to fruition and people that couldve helped stopped it didnt.

But I agree with everything else you said.

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I feel like, as time has gone on, I have decided to blame only Republicans and people who vote for Republicans for the Republicans.

It's like yeah, you should have just voted for Clinton although she sucks, but everyone who voted Republicans should have just done that too and also voted for a worse candidate and also has worse views of the world.

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America's memory is too short for accelerationism. The Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowskis of the world make sure of that. And the Supreme Court is too permanent a position.

By 2022 Democratic Voters will once again become complacent. Republicans will take back the house (thanks to cutting the voting rights act which people like Sinema and Manchin refuse to do anything about except twiddle their thumbs) and middle-class America will return to voting for the party that will cut taxes on the super rich and whittle away at the rights of people who aren't them. Then be shocked once again that it happened. "The Republican Party LIED to us again?! We thought for sure they were being truthful this time." It's like the opposite of the boy who cried wolf. It's the boy who cried wolf, and then there was a fucking wolf. And the villagers didn't listen. They got their faces eaten off. "We'll listen to him next time!" they say. And they do. The boy comes, warns "Wolf, Wolf!" and the villagers go inside their houses and are safe. Then the next time comes around, the boy yells "Wolf! Wolf!" and the villagers are like "Silly boy. We're safe. We don't need to go back ins---AGHHHMYFACEMYFACEAWOLFISEATINGMYFACE"

Why Stephen Breyer hasn't retired yet, I still don't know. He said he doesn't want someone to replace him who'll undo everything he's done over the last 25 years. But that's EXACTLY what will happen unless Biden is able to pick his replacement when he has control of the Senate and it's not up to Mitch "We can let a SCOTUS nomination go 9 days before election, but not 2 years before the next one if the party in power is the opposite of the president" McConnnel to decide if they'll get to vote on a nominee or not (Let's NOT forget that even John McCain said he wouldn't let Hillary nominate a replacement for 4 years).

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Ive seen a lot of people falling back to the easy this is Jill Stein voters fault when Gary Johnson voters caused Trump to lose states as well. Whos more to blame? Are the Johnson voters good and Stein voters bad? Are they more or less to blame than Hillarys bad campaign? What about RBG and all the people telling her not to retire under Obama?

I cant believe were arguing THIS aspect of 2016 again (I mean I can, because life is hell, but yeah)

also:

https://twitter.com/asharangappa_/status/1433283453798080514?s=21

We truly live in hell


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DoomTheGyarados posted...

I feel like, as time has gone on, I have decided to blame only Republicans and people who vote for Republicans for the Republicans.

It's like yeah, you should have just voted for Clinton although she sucks, but everyone who voted Republicans should have just done that too and also voted for a worse candidate and also has worse views of the world.

Oh for sure. But they wanted this to happen. They are excited that this is happening and they got what they were voting for.

The frustration, for me, isn't even so much assigning blame right now. It is more so along the lines of "if you sat out 2016 or voted third party to send a message in a swing state, you also don't get to complain about Roe vs. Wade being overturned." You were told this could happen and your response at the time was "I don't care". So if they didn't care then I don't want to see them complaining about the consequences of their actions now.

Like you pointed out Hillary was a garbage candidate. But I pushed people to vote her in spite of her being a garbage candidate in those swing states, and their response at the time was basically to call me a toady for the democratic party and that I didn't genuinely care about the stuff we had discussed in detail for years. So to now see these people on Facebook going ballistic...it is annoying to me, personally and I feel like throwing the "you didn't genuinely care about this stuff we talked about" argument right back in their face even though I'm not even sure they remember telling me it.

It is less of a sweeping general statement and more of a personal frustration.

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I mean part of me wants to assign some blame I guess but that isn't the main impetus, is what I'm getting at.

I'll drop it because I know how FUN discussing this for the 20th time would be, but that is at least where I was coming from.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Ive seen a lot of people falling back to the easy this is Jill Stein voters fault when Gary Johnson voters caused Trump to lose states as well. Whos more to blame? Are the Johnson voters good and Stein voters bad? Are they more or less to blame than Hillarys bad campaign? What about RBG and all the people telling her not to retire under Obama?

I cant believe were arguing THIS aspect of 2016 again (I mean I can, because life is hell, but yeah)

also:

https://twitter.com/asharangappa_/status/1433283453798080514?s=21

We truly live in hell

Unfortunately, this is likely what's fueling it:
https://twitter.com/CMargaronis/status/1432951068174872587

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I also don't care much about roe v wade admittedly. Wish there was this outrage about more important issues tbh

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StealThisSheen posted...

Unfortunately, this is likely what's fueling it:

I dont know how Brie stays on Twitter, the amount of harassment she gets every day cannot be healthy for her.

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Suprak the Stud posted...

The effective end of Roe vs Wade.

It was something I specifically brought up in 2016 when this crowd was advocating for Jill Stein and didnt understand why I was voting Clinton. Two of these people live in Michigan. I feel like if I point out they are in part responsible for this, theyll do some combination of yelling at me/blocking me and it would basically end the friendship at that point. Im not as close with them as I used to be back in college anyway and there has been tension between us before because of this debate.

At this point if they dont understand why voting for Stein was a mistake, even on ITS OWN MERITS, theyre lost.

signed, a regretful Stein 2016 Michigan voter

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Jakyl25 posted...

At this point if they dont understand why voting for Stein was a mistake, even on ITS OWN MERITS, theyre lost.

signed, a regretful Stein 2016 Michigan voter

You willingly holding guilt absolves the people who are more deserving of blame.

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All I can say is donate to organizations like RAICES if you are willing and able

https://twitter.com/raicestexas/status/1433220099003981826?s=21

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LordoftheMorons posted...

More details on the Texas law:

https://twitter.com/jaywillis/status/1433102356946685953?s=21

straight-up evil shit

God, the more I dig into this the worse it gets.

LordoftheMorons posted...

https://twitter.com/mjs_dc/status/1433278317269028865?s=21

JFC

Actual link to the opinions:

https://twitter.com/neal_katyal/status/1433280766574739456?s=21

As I read it SCOTUS very well could (and I would guess will) uphold a stay if the right people are being sued (i.e. one of the vigilantes). Of course, as the dissent points out, many TX abortion clinics are halting providing abortions in the first place because of the threat of these lawsuits, and the majority is basically saying tough luck if your rights are being stolen by intimidation

jesus fucking christ

Yeah, the majority here is buying into the ludicrous scheme the Texas legislature cooked up about the vigilantes. Like I said, the whole vigilante bit wasn't just some sick cruelty - this was why it was included, it was the key component to the law because it was intended to result in just this outcome since they finally believed they had a court stacked enough with partisans to buy in.

Again, my longer post from before goes a bit more into detail, but basically Texas intentionally wrote the law to empower citizen vigilantes and pushed the responsibility of enforcement to them precisely so they could go, "Hey, we - the Texas government - are not the one enforcing this law we passed. It's the citizens! So you can't sue us we have nothing to do with it! You gotta wait until one of those vigilantes files a lawsuit. So you can't put a stop to our flagrantly unconstitutional law here on that technicality!"

As for the dissents. Every single one of the four dissenting judges (Liberals + Roberts) wrote their own dissent here to call this bullshit out for what it is.

Roberts (+Breyer and Kagan) points out just what I said above. That what Texas is trying to do here is concoct a scheme to "insulate the State from responsibility for implementing and enforcing the regulatory regime." He also takes issue with this being decided in the shadow docket inside two days, without consideration of either lower court, standard merits briefings, or oral arguments. He explicitly states (well I mean he's dissenting so duh) that he would enjoin the law so that it could properly work its way through the court system with full arguments, etc.

Breyer (+Sotomayor and Kagan) points out the obvious unconstitutionality of the law under Planned Parenthood and Roe and notes that obviously a state can not delegate a power which it literally does not have. He also goes all the way back to Marbury v Madison to point out that when a legal right is "invaded" a "legal remedy by suit or action at law." is provided by law and notes that Texas's vigilante scheme should not change this fact.

Sotomayor (+Breyer and Kagan) immediately calls the majority out for "bury[ing] their heads in the sand" by letting a law designed to defy 50 years of settled law go through and "rewards tactics designed to avoid judicial review." She points out that the six week ban means abortion is now banned before many women even realize they are pregnant. She also pretty bluntly calls the law what it si, "In effect, the Texas Legislature has deputized the State's citizens as bounty hunters, offering them cash prizes for civilly prosecuting their neighbors' medical procedures."

Kagan (+Breyer and Sotomayor) leads with stating that the majority has greenlighted Texas overturning Roe and Casey. The rest of her opinion is putting the court on blast for the shadow docket bullshit. I'll quote it in its entirety because she puts it better than I ever could.

Justice Kagan dissents...

Today's ruling illustrates just how far the Court's "shadow docket" decisions may depart from the usual principle of appellate process. That ruling, as everyone must agree, is of great consequence. Yet the majority has acted without any guidance from the Court of Appeals -- which is right now considering the same issues. It has reviewed only the most cursory party submissions, and then only hastily. And it barely bothers to explain its conclusion -- that a challenge to an obviously unconstitutional abortion regulation backed by a wholly unprecedented enforcement scheme is unlikely to prevail. In all these ways, the majority's decision is emblematic of too much of this Court's shadow-docket decisionmaking -- which every day becomes more unreasoned, inconsistent, and impossible to defend.

To add onto to Kagan's statement there I'll add that this is the latest chapter in a clear pattern of how this Court has chosen to operate. In the "regular" docket where cases are fully argued through the standard process it tosses a bone here or there like the ACA case to give Republicans and "moderates" (and perhaps most insidiously, the willing accomplices in the media) the opportunity to go, "See, this Court is actually more centrist than Democrats feared. They saved Obamacare... twice!" to give the Court a thin veneer of credibility as an independent, nonpartisan institution - even as they also release opinions that tear down the Voting Rights Act and let unlimited dark money flood the system. But then in the shadow docket where they can issue unsigned, and often without explanation, orders? They go full partisan because they largely do it with less attention and no accountability. In just the past two weeks they used this process to force the Biden administration to implement Trump's immigration policy (and somehow compel a foreign country to agree to it), killed the eviction moratorium, and now have let Texas outlaw abortion in clear defiance of Planned Parenthood v Casey and Roe.

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In lighter news

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/01/business/joe-rogan-covid-19.html

"Mr. Rogan said he was treated with a series of medications including ivermectin, a deworming veterinary drug that the Food and Drug Administration has warned Covid-19 patients against taking and that has repeatedly been shown as ineffective for them in clinical trials. He also mentioned prednisone, a steroid, and a vitamin drip.

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Well

Texas is screwed, but Biden just got a get out of jail free card for Afghanistan. No way we dont have horrendous headlines of 8 week pregnant women getting sued all the way up to Election Day 2022 that makes everyone forget Afghanistan.

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masterplum posted...

No way we dont have horrendous headlines of 8 week pregnant women getting sued all the way up to Election Day 2022 that makes everyone forget Afghanistan.

The woman is the one person who can't be sued under this law. Just everyone else who can be even remotely connected to it.

As I said before, it includes the doctor, providers, anyone who provided financial support for the woman's abortion, anyone who helps the woman get to a clinic (including, yeah, an Uber driver hypothetically)...

And I mean, yeah, anti-choice groups have already set-up an "anonymous tips line" for people to submit to for this purpose. Because, again, you don't have to actually be connected to or harmed by the abortion to bring a suit under this law. Or from Texas.

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So how do I go about suing Greg Abbott?

I have evidence he paid for an abortion literally today, right after the law came into effect.

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TheRock1525 posted...

So how do I go about suing Greg Abbott?

I have evidence he paid for an abortion literally today, right after the law came into effect.

Honestly that right here is why this is going to be a cluster. There are no laws that you cant sue anyone for anything, so I anticipate all sorts of frivolous lawsuits flying around as Karens, who are now being encouraged to file suit, are going to start filing suit on everything

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"The unborn are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor; they dont resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they dont ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they dont need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they dont bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike; they allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born, you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn. You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus, but actually dislike people who breathe. Prisoners? Immigrants? The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible? They all get thrown under the bus for the unborn.

- Methodist Pastor David Barnhart

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Dancedreamer posted...

Why Stephen Breyer hasn't retired yet, I still don't know.

Oh man I forgot about him. Dude needs to retire NOW.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

I also don't care much about roe v wade admittedly. Wish there was this outrage about more important issues tbh

Aren't you a big healthcare guy? This is literally a healthcare issue.

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not that healthcare

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not caring about women forced to carry to term or seeking out dangerous and illegal alternatives is pretty gross

not to mention we can't just roll back rights we don't ourselves care about

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Ive seen a lot of people falling back to the easy this is Jill Stein voters fault when Gary Johnson voters caused Trump to lose states as well. Whos more to blame? Are the Johnson voters good and Stein voters bad? Are they more or less to blame than Hillarys bad campaign? What about RBG and all the people telling her not to retire under Obama?

I cant believe were arguing THIS aspect of 2016 again (I mean I can, because life is hell, but yeah)

also:

https://twitter.com/asharangappa_/status/1433283453798080514?s=21

We truly live in hell

Wow Hillary supporters are such sore losers. Bernie supporters didn't want to vote for you. They have an absolute right to refuse to vote for you. You are why you lost.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

I also don't care much about roe v wade admittedly. Wish there was this outrage about more important issues tbh

As a man with 5 daughters, I care very much about Roe v. Wade.

I feel like a woman's right to her own body is up there pretty high on a list of importance.

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Oh yeah it is disgusting and horrible. I just wish we could get some of these people on board with the whole outrage thing for more issues.

It's like a lot of focus on a niche issue all things considered. Of course in my utopia women would have proper health care as well as everything else.

I don't know the numbers though so maybe more abortions are happening than I think. Of course the principle is the point as well I understand.


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I guess I feel as if people are properly treating that law with the disdain I wish they treated many other issues. Not taking issue with that disdain. Just makes it hard for me to be too passionate about it. Like 'yes, appropriate response, fuck these people'

I can confess to being overly glib too often in this topic.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

I guess I feel as if people are properly treating that law with the disdain I wish they treated many other issues. Not taking issue with that disdain. Just makes it hard for me to be too passionate about it. Like 'yes, appropriate response, fuck these people'

I can confess to being overly glib too often in this topic.

I get that, I just take issue with the idea that this outrage is unwarranted or misdirected. Because I think a lot of the problem and why we are here is that people are not outraged enough, even over relatively niche things. People can be mad at everything all the time if they want, but it's hard to focus that energy.

I guess for my perspective on this specific situation, Roe v Wade is held up as this protective bulwark on a national level when it doesn't really accomplish that. Texas has been sabotaging abortion for years by doing things like redirecting money from Planned Parenthood to shitty Christian "clinics" that literally embezzle the money and fail (so, the state bullying a healthcare service out of business). I live here so I keep up on news about it, but I feel like it goes unnoticed on a national level. There are similar strategies going on all over the south that are technically legal under RvW (at least according to the court system, which...well.). And in terms of Democratic leadership, the "strategy" was always to talk about protecting Roe which was never going to be good enough. But a lot of the obstacles making this happen at a practical, local level go unnoticed nationally until Roe v Wade is invoked. Much like other issues, there is no drama or spectacle to latch onto until that happens. Hell, even this ludicrous law was flying WAY under the radar until the SC weighed in.

So I understand the cynicism around the news media outrage cycle, but this one is past due. Laws are fake, and the Supreme Court has gone mask off and confirmed that in the middle of the night. Abortion rights aren't exactly my biggest active concern either but...there's a lot to be mad about here and if people are coming around then good.

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Oh yeah I am all for people being enraged about this. I just exhaust myself on other issues which is what I meant about not caring. Poorly worded but I kind of have to approach politics in glib fashion otherwise I get very cranky.

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Yeah fair enough, it's hard to focus on this shit without fucking up your mental health. I do stuff like that too and ultimately that's why these things are so hard.

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ulti: IDGAF!
also ulti: wahhh this topic isn't outraged about a bullshit story about dogs in afghanistan

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Ulti: What day of the week is it? I need to figure out which personality to wear today.

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Ulti: I can't find my virtue signaling pants. Guess I'll have to wear my IDGAF Bermuda shorts.
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Ulti posted? I guess he blocked me because I refused to sell him a game lol

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

also ulti: wahhh this topic isn't outraged about a bullshit story about dogs in afghanistan

So many people fake outraged by this fake story were outraged when we were bringing our own dogs home over people.

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The funny this is actually committing to ending the war in Afghanistan is, I dunno, far and away the best thing Bidens done? Like if all the things to criticize him for, for some reason this is the one getting the most coverage and play.

And by some reason I mean because people claiming to be opposed to indefinite war were actually ok with it and wouldve been fine letting the US stay there indefinitely while paying lip service to the idea of bringing our troops home when it was election time, of course.

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Everybody keeping score at home, please move your Susan Collins dial to "Very concerned" over the SCOTUS Texas ruling.

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once again, thank you so very much maine voters for somehow re-electing that creature

i know it made zero difference in the court makeup but god damn how do you reward a human being like that

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https://time.com/6094804/sandy-hook-lawsuit-school-records/

gun makers want to make sure first graders might have been asking for it

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Suprak the Stud posted...

And by some reason I mean because people claiming to be opposed to indefinite war were actually ok with it and wouldve been fine letting the US stay there indefinitely while paying lip service to the idea of bringing our troops home when it was election time, of course.

This is another thing that bugs me. A big reason many supported Trump was because he supposedly didn't renege on his campaign promises once he became POTUS like many typically do. Except to me it all seemed like hype, that Trump merely kept repeating his promises to make it seem like he cared like he was still campaigning. Campaigning and governing take two completely different sets of skills.

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yeah, trump really didn't renege on his campaign promises, like building the wall and making mexico pay for it.

lol

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TheRock1525 posted...

once again, thank you so very much maine voters for somehow re-electing that creature

i know it made zero difference in the court makeup but god damn how do you reward a human being like that

Every time someone is mad at Susan Collins I eyeroll. Alabama elected a football coach. It feels like it borders on misogyny at times.

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We eyeroll at them too! But at least hes honest about what his agenda is

I dont approve of calling anyone a monster but shes definitely someone who pretends to be much more centrist than she is.

When it comes to votes, how is she functionally different from Tuberville? Honest question

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Jakyl25 posted...

We eyeroll at them too! But at least hes honest about what his agenda is

I dont approve of calling anyone a monster but shes definitely someone who pretends to be much more centrist than she is.

When it comes to votes, how is she functionally different from Tuberville? Honest question

This was from when Trump was in office

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/congress-trump-score/

But substantially

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Im not sure that disproves that she was functionally all that different, since youd definitely have to weight that based on what, specifically, she supported vs. what she didnt.

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