Board 8 > Star Wars and Pokemon Mafia Topic 13 - The Last Topic

(+) Yeah! (+)

Hb has been killed! He was...

I sense something Master, and I dont like it.

You are Ahsoka Tano, LIGHT SIDE Tracker. The one and only apprentice of Anakin Skywalker, you were trained by the most powerful Jedi of the Order, and perhaps that is why your rambunctiousness was encouraged. Also being inspired by the likes of Master Kenobi, Yoda, and Plo Koon, you developed unique skills, including how to use the Force to mask yourself as you follow others.

As a Tracker, once per night, you may target a player of your choice. You will learn the names of any player they target, if any.

Anorith!

You are Anorith, LIGHT SIDE Flavor Cop. Being one of the fossil Pokmon, you have somehow picked up on all the knowledge that the researchers who revived you have. You are able to identify others because of this. Just accept it. Please.

As a Flavor Cop, once per night, you may target a player of your choice. You will learn the name of that players characters (for example, if you targeted yourself, you would learn you are Anorith).

Living Playerlist

1. Kirby
2. Ctes
3. Sir Chris

Shes getting a tv show, shell be fine
LD1 - Sheep - Venomoff Gideon, DARK SIDE Tracker/Poisoner
KN1 - IGCD - Charmandalorian, LIGHT SIDE Bodyguard/Vanilla
LD2 - Ben - Professor Snoke, DARK SIDE Neighborizer/Redirector
KN2 - Corrik - Padm Amidalakazam, LIGHT SIDE Vanilla/Psychic
LD3 - Chang - Ki-Adi Munna, LIGHT SIDE Vanilla/Vanilla
KN3 - Masterplum - Surskit Fisto, LIGHT SIDE Vanilla/Vanilla
LD4 - Arti - Pokdexter Jettser, LIGHT SIDE Vanilla/Flavor Cop
KN4 - Death - Mace Windewgong - LIGHT SIDE Cop/Vanilla
LD5 - Isquen - Sheevee - DARK SIDE Godfather Ninja/Backup
KN5 - Sultan - Tentacoola - LIGHT SIDE Prostitute/Vanilla\
LD6 - Chaeix (JC) - Jar Carbink - LIGHT SIDE Hated Townie/Vanilla
KN6 - Ulti - Mewtwo-D2 - LIGHT SIDE Doctor/Doctor
LD7 - Lea - Wobobafett - DARK SIDE Bulletproof/Mirror
KN7 - Red - Girafarigran Dan and the Modal Nodes - LIGHT SIDE Vanilla/Dumb Hider
LD8 - MZero - Dittobias Beckett - DARK SIDE Thief/Doppelganger
KN8 - SBell - Star Wartortle - LIGHT SIDE Vanilla/Vanilla
LD9 - ViolentAbacus - X-Wingull - LIGHT SIDE Vanilla/Vanilla
KN9 - Hbthebattle - Ahsoka Tanorith - LIGHT SIDE Tracker/Flavor Cop

With 3 alive, it takes 2 to reach majority. If day doesn't end by 7pm eastern on Sunday, then the day will conclude in a No Lynch, unless there is a vote leader.

GO!

First of all, let's hold off our votes for a short while.

Second of all, what a fitting movie for us to reach the final topic on.

I am frustrated that I was not more stubborn about my reads. I spent a day saying there was no way both Abacus and MZero were scum, argued for it, continued to try to find other solutions the next day, then ended up taking the simplest solution because it seemed people weren't moving and I felt confident enough we would still be able to win this today. No surprise HB was the killed one now that he can't have his tracks stolen any longer.

Geesh making us wait extra.

So I would have shot Ctes last night if I had been killed. There are two worlds we live in. The first is there is some mystery third party. In this world Scare's behavior makes much more sense than Kirby's of 'I scan innocent, oh great I was scanned innocent let me fly under the radar.' Not to say that this was wholly why Scare was low posting but it fits a certain profile.

Secondly, Scare also fits scum's now known MO of this game of being cute as fuck with their interactions day one. I was fine with Mzero for awhile because of sheep/ben really leaning into odd choices for scum on scum on scum discussions. Ben and Sheep seemed more awkward around the subjects of Kirby day one. I pressed Ben a lot on Kirby and it gave me a good impression of Kirby at the time. Like he was scared to give him too much credit.

Scare on the other hand Sheep, while voting ben, was like 'YEAH I DON'T LIKE THAT SCARE SUSPICION BY CHRIS' which at the time I was like 'well okay scare can't be scum' but then I have since learned apparently they had fun doing stuff like that day one. Also I have seen things that take over for godfather in larger games before. It's rare, but I am thinking something like an apprentice of palps rising up to take part of his master's role. It's in the field of theory.

This is an initial thought on the day.

Secondly though, seeing this:

ctesjbuvf posted...

Second of all, what a fitting movie for us to reach the final topic on.

I am frustrated that I was not more stubborn about my reads. I spent a day saying there was no way both Abacus and MZero were scum, argued for it, continued to try to find other solutions the next day, then ended up taking the simplest solution because it seemed people weren't moving and I felt confident enough we would still be able to win this today. No surprise HB was the killed one now that he can't have his tracks stolen any longer.

It didn't feel like this came through very well in topic.

I mean there's some really next level plays by Kirby and the scum team if he is scum. Claiming watcher day 3 with ditto seems frankly insanity. I go back to Kirby preparing to let sheep off the hook day 1 by posting what it would take to let him off the hook and that's certainly a red flag. But Kirby also seemed pretty earnest about feeling... heh heh sheepish, about doing that.

Whichever one of you is scum I don't feel bad about this. Getting scanned and chilling is perfectly valid and you've been great at giving thoughts since entering, Ctes. If it's you then curse scare for maybe being a bit too idle.

Kirby if you're scum you are a fucking madman.

But let's flip the field a bit.

Scum Gladiator/Scum Watcher. Let's just assume that for a second.

Plum kill that night is doc hunting/gets rid of someone on kirby's ass.

Since n2 has not produced a single meaningful scan - wasn't watching when the doctor died for goodness sake

Day 3 used gladiator when there really wasn't an overwhelming need to. Felt almost like he wanted to be confirmed and here he is.

It's day 1. Town Chris is beating the living shit out of scum. Town Chris doesn't even let you unvote your scum buddy smoothly without exerting pressure on you. Day 2 you seem unsure of ben for quite awhile. Day 3 you hem and you haw on lynches but it is performative. You just claim your role and pray? You're so behind, you just claimed gladiator and used it but everyone is still on you. You're down almost half your team and it is only by the grace of chang having an off game something bad isn't happening again. You just go for it.

hmm hmmm hmmm.

Possible.

Two flavor scanners why not two godfathers

no miller so it's basically the same amount of tomfoolery you'd expect in terms of numbers. Lots of counter play around scanners this game. A LOT. Too much? hm.

I love mafia, but this is stressful.

Chris, if you are the final scum, then this have been a master play from your side and I will take my hat off in defeat, but I don't believe this is the case.

Kirby's best defense for a while was watching Ulti night 2 and Ulti not dying until night 6. This argument here was that it would have been a bad play by scum, but... why couldn't it be? It wasn't even bad when it came down to it, they managed to not kill the people Ulti wanted to protect.

Second was MZero's Doppelganger role explained what would happen in case of watcher. But it also explained tracker and cop, they're not there either. I talked a bit about this the past two days as well, I don't see why it would be so unlikely, especially compared to two godfathers.

I made a post about a Darthmanitan Vader theory yesterday and no one even responded to it. I want to go back to plum's final point before getting shot seemingly very randomly. There's no way Anakin Skywalker is a town's role. He was having none of what Kirby said at the very end of day 3 and he's the one to die. He was on to something then. That gladiate stunt was always extremely weird. Chang was already dying and Kirby still gladiated, arguing that we wouldn't be lycnhing Arti despite saying that Arti might as well be the scum. That was such a weird move. Plum feared he gained something from winning his gladiator match and the fact that the play was so weird was what made me speculate that prequel trilogy Darmanakin switched sides doing that. Or maybe had to do it at some certain point, idk. People argued back then that chang being town and Kirby being scum was extremely unlikely, but if Kirby got something from winning it's a lot less weird. Ultimately, it's no longer important if he was at some point town or whatever. I just think Anakin Skywalker starting as town and later becomming Darth Vader would be an extremely cool role and Darmanitan can somewhat work with both names.

I've had Kirby on the radar a bit constantly, but he has managed to set up some things that made it seem unlikely, but now it's him or Chris. A lot of his posts early on seemed to be making points that actually weren't points. Posts like "One could argue the play was to let Ben die in place of Sheep due to their roles (useless Neighborizer versus useful Tracker). This would assume that scum didn't know about the role switch." It's wront. It doesn't assume that in the slightest. Redirector is a great role, poisoner sure is too! Maybe this was even before they realized just how good poison is.

I'm not 100% certain that Chris isn't the final scum just because he's good enough to pull this off, but it's 99% or so and poison not being used is among the many things that makes it less likely.

Once being in a position more or less confirmed Kirby began having less of these long posts of little effort and have just been going with the flow more or less. I'm willing to dig more into this, but it'll be after a good night's sleep, I must say. Scum knew they had a player somewhat safe and could stroll like this so less effort was needed.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

It didn't feel like this came through very well in topic.

That's a shame, but I did mention more than once that I had a very hard time seeing Lea on day 5 saying the remaining scum were likely MZero, Abacus and Isquen if those were in fact the three other scum than her. Kirby was the one who responded to this saying that once JC died, this was basically the most likely thing, to which I responded it was before JC died as he lived a day longer than Isquen and I don't think it was talked about much more than that. I also more than once that I was not ready to call Kirby town even if it seemed more likely.

The points he had going for him ultimately made me vote Abacus. It's obviously easy to say now that I regret that, but it didn't make use lose and I knew it wouldn't. All the same points stand stronger than ever now.

Oh yeah I always get my extra kill back lol. There's just certain things that scum teams with me don't do that they did, like if I am good enough to decide to play like I did early on I am good enough to use an extra kill.

(Also my shot is the only reason why scum BP exists, that's pretty relevant now)

ctesjbuvf posted...

That's a shame, but I did mention more than once that I had a very hard time seeing Lea on day 5 saying the remaining scum were likely MZero, Abacus and Isquen if those were in fact the three other scum than her. Kirby was the one who responded to this saying that once JC died, this was basically the most likely thing, to which I responded it was before JC died as he lived a day longer than Isquen and I don't think it was talked about much more than that. I also more than once that I was not ready to call Kirby town even if it seemed more likely.

The points he had going for him ultimately made me vote Abacus. It's obviously easy to say now that I regret that, but it didn't make use lose and I knew it wouldn't. All the same points stand stronger than ever now.

Ah I see what you mean. It is possible this is my own cognitive bias just because I really wanted the game to be relatively simple.

Another point against Kirby is Lea's parting words of me or kirby being third party. 'my 6th buddy is totally an option for being third party' winky face emoji is something lea would do.

If I weren't coming through well enough it's probably this is effectively my first game playing and I was replacing in on the 8th day trying to make sense of everything, but the points should be there.

Yeah you've done great as either alignment here. It's really tough, I can't even imagine reading all of that trying to piece everything together.

I am being swayed a little here.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Oh yeah I always get my extra kill back lol. There's just certain things that scum teams with me don't do that they did, like if I am good enough to decide to play like I did early on I am good enough to use an extra kill.

(Also my shot is the only reason why scum BP exists, that's pretty relevant now)

Yeah, well, Kirby would have to make one hell of a case of you being scum if I were to consider it truly at this point, I'm not seeing it. And he won't, he began to consider me being scum a lot more yesterday suddenly probably because he fully knew how today would look. I felt confident enough I'd be alive because I was set up to be the misplay then. HB obviously died because he could have trivialized it.

In my 'crazy whacky oh god this game is still going' I imagined a world where kirby was killed and hb comes in and says 'I tracked ctes he went nowhere' and votes me and then you vote me and you are a palps clone as flavor who is also a godfather/ninja or some crazy shit lol

DoomTheGyarados posted...

In my 'crazy whacky oh god this game is still going' I imagined a world where kirby was killed and hb comes in and says 'I tracked ctes he went nowhere' and votes me and then you vote me and you are a palps clone as flavor who is also a godfather/ninja or some crazy shit lol

My biggest concern was you dying and shooting me, making us lose the game. I had no idea what you would do other than not shooting HB lol.

Yeah it is why I decided to not say anything. I didn't want to deal with the wifom of me picking a target and then dying

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Yeah you've done great as either alignment here. It's really tough, I can't even imagine reading all of that trying to piece everything together.

I am being swayed a little here.

Thank you, that means something, but to be fair, I had been actively following the game. My thoughts just weren't that more considerate because I didn't expect to replace for most of it.

Also as much as I'm enjoying playing right now, I'll have to go to sleep. At least any reading of previous days will not be before that.

It feels weird switching from trying to analyze to trying to convince but it's basically what has happened.

Yeah get some sleep. You won't be dead when you wake up.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

It's rare, but I am thinking something like an apprentice of palps rising up to take part of his master's role. It's in the field of theory.

Man, despite saying that, I just read this again and am considering if something else like this might have triggered the Darthmanakin switch. In speculating is there such as the sith dying. Still think gladiating is a better key if a switch happened.

Almost forgot about this oops

In any case, whoever the scum is, let's just end this. Reveal yourself, for I am the elusive third-party you have been hunting, Admiral James T. Kirklia, Third Party Survivor-Gladiator/Third Party Survivor-Watcher!

I thought I'd side with town here for the easy win, but it looks like the scum side is my better bargain. And don't try to fool me, either; I know there's another scum left. I couldn't have been the one to kill Hb or Sbell, after all.

So yeah, whoever the last scum is, cast your vote and I'll hammer. gg town y'all played well but clearly not well enough

What

Okay I admit I didn't expect Kirby to just go with 'hey guys actually I am survivor'

Well if that's true - and I don't think it is mind you, then I guess rip me

Claiming survivor watcher in final 3 is... bold.

Ok I cleared the cob webs. Kirby would you like to try a second post that doesn't make me want to snap vote you.

Did this guy really peace on me after that post. This guy.

I mean, could I really call myself a friend of Ben if I didn't try crazy theatrics at least once per game?

Idk, it would've been hilarious if the remaining scum member believed me. Y'all are too smart for that, but it was worth a shot.

In hindsight, I should've waited until Ctes was online again just to get his reaction, too. But my intent was to litmus test whether we're working with a mafia opposition or a third party. Because if there's actually a Serial Killer, it would have to be somebody who is smart enough to not kill anybody until they were certain the last scum was dead.

... And that would have to be you, Chris. That is... if you weren't painting an enormous target on your back with your performance on the first two days.

So I'd rather focus on y'all's roleclaims. I find both claims easy to fake in this setup, as dissuading scum from wanting to kill you is a perfect cover to explain why you're alive. So let's consider what makes both claims sound ridiculous.

Vengeful:
- With scum poisoner and backup allowing two possible poisons, Vengeful adds yet another killing role that could have made this game much closer and shorter. Plausible, given how absolutely large this game was from the start
- Although it does resolve Bulletproof, it's a roundabout way to resolve it
- It's a reactionary role that makes me question how tight the timing would be allowed. For example, say the last night action is sent in just before 6:30 PM, and the result is that you are dead. You now have half an hour of real time to select your kill target before the day begins. Now, MZero's role behaved similarly, but the difference is that nothing could stop him from using his ability (IIRC at least). Meanwhile, Vengeful relies on the checks for nightkill (scum targets you for death), Doctor (you are the nightkill target and Ulti protects you), and Hider (Red is the nightkill target and he hides behind you) before it can be determined that you have died.

Ghost:
- lol wtf this role is really freaking good for Town are we sure this is real?

Though honestly despite the reasons above, I'm less believing of the Ghost claim. But in all fairness, the sheer amount of killing potential scum has with potential double poisons may allow Ghost to exist as the check for that, whereas Bulletproof may indeed have been a red herring. But granted, Chris's claim after Lea's lynch and before Abacus andCtes's claims makes the Vengeful claim more believable unless Chris had knowledge of the remaining setup upon the day after we lynched Lea. Otherwise, Chris would've risked being shot by actually killing role by now. So unless he knew the remaining unclaimed didn't have any killing power, claiming to have a role that resolves Lea's claim would have been suicide.

In short, I'm more willing to believe Ctes is the remaining adversary. Even if I end up handing the game over to Chris on a silver platter if he's actually the true foe, he murdered the scum poisoner and didn't yell at Isquen to poison somebody. Chris, you would be the true madman if you are scum. Or heck, if you're third-party, you're insane for making yourself such a huge target for scum.

As for my own defense, I'd like to bring up that:

1) I corroborated Ulti visiting Chris, as you all know very well. Someone would need to make a good argument for how I could have faked that to make my Watcher claim valid, because again, if I knew Ulti visited Chris, why wouldn't I assume he's the Doctor? Especially since on D3 (I think) Chris pointed out that he was probably only alive because of protection still being in the game, which clearly meant there was a good chance of Ulti being the doctor.

2) If I'm scum, then you'll have to believe that Isquen either didn't use his back-up or burned a redirect on some random, other people. Because clearly nobody was poisoned. I'll concede that me attempting to target Red that night was foolish, but it didn't matter anyway, as I had rightfully predicted scum wouldn't let me scan Hb or Death so easily anyway, and if they did, it's because they weren't gonna kill either of them that night anyway. *sigh* I wish I had considered that logic when Sbell died, but I figured Hb was the higher priority target with his restored scans.

Based on those arguments, I'd assert that in spite of my lacking performance this game, you can't reasonably point the finger at me until you can sufficiently debunk those arguments. But I imagine the same logic you'd have to use to make those arguments false could also be applied to Chris's town alignment.

Therefore, I think Ctes is the remaining scum here. You don't think Chris is scum because of his actions this game, yet you're prattling on about some asinine Darthmanitan theory when your real focus should be on explaining why Isquen failed to use his back-up or didn't redirect Hb instead. Until you can explain that, you've got no argument to make. And since you've already cleared off Chris from the list, then either you and I are fools playing right into Chris's hand, or you just PoE'd yourself into being the remaining scum.

That being said, I don't want to vote yet. Ctes, I'm putting the onus on you for making a good argument that Chris could be scum. That's the only way I can see you being the innocent here, as Chris rightfully pointed out that we'd both be madmen if we were scum. So what's the truth?

Just to be clear serial killers are forced to kill in our community. It isn't optional. Also I assume you have never played in a game with a mayor if you think conditional timing is strange. I could have submitted a kill if I died but I just made sure I was mostly around.

Also I have a few possible theories on backup but I am curious what ctes will say.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Did this guy really peace on me after that post. This guy.

Sorry, I was whipping up another batch of my signature wall posts (TM).

(Though in truth I completely forgot about Mafia today because I was at a friend's place playing the new Mario Strikers game. Just got home about 45 minutes ago and started typing away. Though the third party fakeclaim was something I planned since Abacus's flip because I thought it would've been hilarious if it actually worked as I intended. Alas, I'm horrible at lying, but I had low hopes of my faade paying off anyway. In any case, I have no intent to let this game end early. I'm okay with dragging this out to the bitter end, as I really want to make this a spectacle to behold. Drama, tragedy, hope! All for the audience to enjoy as I inevitably screw up something and end up costing town the game. Because I certainly seem to have a track record for overthinking and making dumb ideas, ultimately coming to the wrong conclusions. I can only hope I'm correct here, but ngl, being part of the final three kinda makes me delusional. So I apologize in advance for continuing to be overdramatic and sarcastic, as I simply want this to be entertaining before the inevitable post-game talk of "omg it was so obvious you should've voted for this dude why did you vote the other one?" But it would be pretty funny if I'm the one who's actually screwed and Chris is secretly third-party while Ctes is scum lol)

If you are scum and I vote ctes plum is going to disown me.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Just to be clear serial killers are forced to kill in our community. It isn't optional.

Oh lol then scum was clearly insane for thinking there was a serial killer on the loose lol

Absolutely no way we haven't gotten a single double kill this game with both scum and a serial killer. Especially not after Ulti died, unless someone actually believes the serial killer targeted Lea without knowing she was Bulletproof. Even then, Mzero was still alive after Lea died, so how could a serial killer kill have been prevented?

So just to address Hb's last words, we've gotta be dealing with a scum guy here, right? A third party that didn't kill before but can kill now doesn't make much sense.

(But hey, speaking of not making much sense I hope my Kirklia claim got a few chuckles lol)

All excellent reasons why I was very dismissive of sk theories. I could dream up a random role but it would be purely fantasy.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

If you are scum and I vote ctes plum is going to disown me.

If I were scum, I might have to take that title of "greatest Mafia player ever" away from you.

... But I don't see that ever being a reality in this timeline lol

Kirby321 posted...

If I were scum, I might have to take that title of "greatest Mafia player ever" away from you.

... But I don't see that ever being a reality in this timeline lol

*narrows eyes*

I do like timelines.

Final 3s are stressful. I lost one once to a guy named oddity in dark tower mafia. He was scanned godfather and I kept going back and forth but eventually went with the odds. I remember it 13 years later lol.

This is a weird decision for me. Kirby has pinged me throughout the game but I had a chance to discuss it with him every time and came away fine every time.

Ctes has been good but also his feet really has never been put to the fire. He has a big old innocent scan and a bit of a blank slate from scare.

Kirby is flawed but flaws in a Mafia game build character. Ctes is flawless but hasn't been put to the proof. Two very different games colliding right now.

Well, I think I've said everything I needed to say. I await Ctes's response to my challenge. But really, Ctes, I'm on your side here. We can win together. I'm just a wayward Star Trek character lost in this world of Star Wars and Pokmon. But if you don't cooperate with me, maybe I'll change my mind and side with town after all...

Anyway, one more shitpost before I turn in. So far, every lynched townie has valiantly laid down their lives and sacrificed themselves, not fearing the inevitability that is death. But scum had fought to the very end. Why? Because they were Scared of dying.

Furthermore, what's a synonym for "fast"? It's "swift". And if something breaks, it's very likely dead. Imagine dropping your million dollar iPhone on a sidewalk or something. You could get it repaired, but who's gonna pay for that?

Fastbreak
Swift death

What's a swift death? An execution. An assassination. A nightkill.

I rest my case.

Denny Crane

Man not having to get up let me sleep way more than usual. Was nice I suppose. I'll get up, read and answer.

I'm not even entirely sure what you're hoping for with the Star Trek claim. You should have tried to find a Digimon to work with the name was my first reaction. I mean, my best bet is that you were hoping to get a vote out to hammer.

I get the points about roles having to do something at specific points, but that's just how it is sometimes and at least the player knows this. I mean, your own role kinda needed the host to be around to confirm gladiating had in fact happened. I'm just saying that I wouldn't put any weigh into that part of the claim even if it is fake.

Ghost is potentially really good, but it depends on the player, they don't have the vote, and in this game it would only exist on Star Wars days which makes it significantly less good.

Abacus had already claimed vanilla when Chris claimed, he just hadn't claimed flavor. It was Sbell and me whose roles weren't known.

Kirby321 posted...

1) I corroborated Ulti visiting Chris, as you all know very well. Someone would need to make a good argument for how I could have faked that to make my Watcher claim valid, because again, if I knew Ulti visited Chris, why wouldn't I assume he's the Doctor? Especially since on D3 (I think) Chris pointed out that he was probably only alive because of protection still being in the game, which clearly meant there was a good chance of Ulti being the doctor.

If you're scum I'm still buying watcher. I don't know if you did or did not assume Ulti being doctor. But I do know that he seemed like a decent mislynch target until the point when he had claimed. Plus, scum did a fine job not killing the doctor targets. Ulti said he targetted you every night because of how good watcher is. Yet here it still is on the final day. Our tracket's reason for living as long as he did was that his scans were stolen, but you're still here. Does scum really kill Sbell and not you when killing you was the one certain way to not be watched that night? Perhaps they do and Sbell was deemed your least likely watch but it does seem like an unnecessarily risky play.

Kirby321 posted...

2) If I'm scum, then you'll have to believe that Isquen either didn't use his back-up or burned a redirect on some random, other people. Because clearly nobody was poisoned. I'll concede that me attempting to target Red that night was foolish, but it didn't matter anyway, as I had rightfully predicted scum wouldn't let me scan Hb or Death so easily anyway, and if they did, it's because they weren't gonna kill either of them that night anyway. *sigh* I wish I had considered that logic when Sbell died, but I figured Hb was the higher priority target with his restored scans.

Yeah, these are all fine reasons why I didn't go for you yesterday, but it's not like it can't be explained. Isquen didn't use his backup as fast as he could, maybe he still hadn't maybe he wasted it on tracker or something. A lot of this is why I considered a switch or something like that. It's not like it's needed. Redirector could be faked, but it allows me to make more sense of some things. We've already reached the point where the easy solution wasn't the answer, so that's just how it has to be.

Kirby321 posted...

Therefore, I think Ctes is the remaining scum here. You don't think Chris is scum because of his actions this game, yet you're prattling on about some asinine Darthmanitan theory when your real focus should be on explaining why Isquen failed to use his back-up or didn't redirect Hb instead.

It's not only his actions, he was also neighborized by scum and makes bulletproof have a function. He also absolutely would have used poison, I believe. It's a stronger case.

Regardless of what Isquen did or did not do, poison was not backupped, so there's a limit of how much sense we can't find in however it was used. HB targetting the one person that could out scum is probably something they hit their heads with afterward but didn't find likely enough regardless of your alignment. Perhaps this should be looked into more.

Kirby321 posted...

Oh lol then scum was clearly insane for thinking there was a serial killer on the loose lol

Still not convinced they ever thought this. It's more than likely they just tried to deray the discussion imo.

Ctes, here's an exercise for you. Can you review day one and tell me what you think of Kirby's day one interactions with the rest of the scum team?

Sure, seems Lea's posts are not in the logs though so it wouldn't be perfect. It's also before any switch if any switch happened. I'll give it a go. I'll admit I didn't expect any of you to be here already.

My thyroid tells me sleep is for pussies until I pass out for half the day.

So that I understand your current theory is that Kirby is some sort of "lost" mafia member that does not communicate with the team until an action is done? If so a scum member should have been searching for them to low key communicate.

I must admit I didn't consider that perhaps the scum team would know there was someone. Hmm. Alright, time to look.

This is rather... hard to do. First topic in and there's not much to go by. Doesn't help the slightest bit that all of Lea's posts are invisible.

Sheep was certainly fishing for reactions in general, wouldn't have thought it was anything in particular if not actively looking for it. Ben asking anyone who was a Pokmon to raise their hand is the closest thing to something that could be an attempt. It's hard to tell if scum knew about the flip beforehand, but maybe this was trying to communicate? Red responding with his Leafeon account was the only response of course.

Idk, it's hard with all the uncertainties here. This depends on Kirby indeed being not being scum yet, also depends on him knowing he can become it and even also depends on scum knowing there's someone like that out there.

Even if all this ends up being true, it's also hard to imagine scum trying too hard right away. My best bet is that ICGD died protecting Chris, who would be a very unlikely to be their missing scum after day 1.

In the event that Kirby was scum all along, his points day 1 is Wales of little content which Plum also went at him for. I don't know how people usually play enough to make big statements here but they are indeed walls of very little content.

On to topic 2 I suppose.

ctesjbuvf posted...

If you're scum I'm still buying watcher. I don't know if you did or did not assume Ulti being doctor. But I do know that he seemed like a decent mislynch target until the point when he had claimed. Plus, scum did a fine job not killing the doctor targets. Ulti said he targetted you every night because of how good watcher is. Yet here it still is on the final day. Our tracket's reason for living as long as he did was that his scans were stolen, but you're still here. Does scum really kill Sbell and not you when killing you was the one certain way to not be watched that night? Perhaps they do and Sbell was deemed your least likely watch but it does seem like an unnecessarily risky play.

So your argument is that the scum kept doctor alive because they knew who Ulti would target and went after other people. So if I were scum, I have to ask:

1) How would scum have accurately predicted Ulti's targets? Do any of the scum flips -- Sheep, Ben, Isquen, Lea, and MZero -- know Ulti so well that they could've pinpointed who he would target? When Ulti revealed his night actions, I'm pretty sure everyone was baffled that he didn't protect Death and was insistent on protecting me. Speaking of Death...

2) If I'm not mistaken, Death was killed as soon as he claimed. Ulti was also killed as soon as he claimed. Do you think this is just a coincidence? If scum was trying to keep easy mislynch targets alive, why did Plum die? If scum knew Ulti would protect me, why wasn't a hard-to-mislynch target like Chris killed? Frankly, scum's killing patterns don't make sense, but they were consistent about killing the Cop and Doc as soon as they were revealed.

As for why they killed Sbell, really, I don't know. I'm just as puzzled about that. For what it's worth, Sbell had a town clear scan, and Hb made it clear that I should watch him in case he dies. With Abacus touted as the next lynch option after MZero, killing Sbell eliminates a confirmed townie while leaving Hb wide open for death the next day, as Abacus was clearly going to be lynched. This leaves me (the suspicious Gladiator Watcher without any town clears that can't be spun into scum behavior), you (the other Cop clear), and Chris (who is either bathing in the blood of his allies like a madman or more likely is the town arbiter in this final decision).

It's clear to see that this final three was an intentional setup to cause as much confusion as possible. Is Kirby a scum Watcher? Is Ctes a second Godfather? Is Chris the true mastermind? One of these conclusions goes against our assumptions we made earlier in the game. But now we have far less people to discuss it with and anyone could be a suspect.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Yeah, these are all fine reasons why I didn't go for you yesterday, but it's not like it can't be explained. Isquen didn't use his backup as fast as he could, maybe he still hadn't maybe he wasted it on tracker or something. A lot of this is why I considered a switch or something like that. It's not like it's needed. Redirector could be faked, but it allows me to make more sense of some things. We've already reached the point where the easy solution wasn't the answer, so that's just how it has to be.

Okay, let's humor your "light side converted to the dark side" theory.

First off, what would be the incentive to switch sides? If scum looked like they were gonna win, sure, it makes sense to jump ship at that point.

And if the switching mechanism involves winning a gladiator duel... why on Earth would I use that switch on Day 3, after two scum with powerful roles (or at least in Sheep's case) were just lynched? Why wouldn't I wait to use it later when the odds of scum winning looked better?

Sure, we were wrong about the "easy solution" with Abacus, but that doesn't justify convoluted theories with no solid answers. Again, you could make a theory about Chris being scum and intentionally bussing Sheep and Ben to their deaths, then only killing off the rest of his team when he had no choice but to let them die. Yet you seem to be laser-focused on proving that my claims are the false ones here; you aren't concerned at all that Chris may have been lying to us the entire time. And that speaks millions about your intents today: appealing to a town Chris and using his doubts against me to seal the mislynch and get victory.

ctesjbuvf posted...

It's not only his actions, he was also neighborized by scum and makes bulletproof have a function. He also absolutely would have used poison, I believe. It's a stronger case.

Regardless of what Isquen did or did not do, poison was not backupped, so there's a limit of how much sense we can't find in however it was used. HB targetting the one person that could out scum is probably something they hit their heads with afterward but didn't find likely enough regardless of your alignment. Perhaps this should be looked into more.

Weren't you arguing yesterday that Bulletproof could've been a red herring? And one of my crackpot theories earlier in the game was that Ben and Chris could have faked the entire discussion as scummates. If you're gonna argue that there's no easy solution to this dilemma, then you really shouldn't be giving Chris a free pass, because Chris being town is the easy solution.

I do have a potential theory about why they used a redirect that night instead of poison. If I had watched Death that night, I would have seen Isquen poisoning him. So if later on there was a double-kill, I could make that connection that Death was visited by Isquen and later died.
... Though I guess they weren't afraid of Doctor? Idk, the situation was so ludicrous that it's the sole reason I didn't believe Ulti was actually the Doc. I still heavily disagree that Watcher is better than Cop, but I digress.

In any case, Isquen using his redirect on me is the simple solution here. Yet you're willing to argue about the truth on this despite wholly accepting that Chris is town without any issue. You can't say "there are no easy solutions anymore, and that's just how it has to be" when you are not suspicious of Chris at all while concocting arguments of why I'm a town-turned-scum role without any substantial evidence.

Also, how are you guys able to view the older topics? I haven't been able to view them at all ever since they stopped showing up in this board's topic list.

log faqs.

hm hm hm.

I am very purposefully trying not to be too forward with which way I am leaning because I am thinking over how you two are interacting with each other. I am trying to ask ctes very specific questions because I think they will be valuable one way or another. Truthfully I think I already know Kirby's measure. We have been playing for ten game days and almost an entire calendar month at this point.

I will say circumstances of the game favor ctes. Being scanned innocent and the fact of the matter is that many of kirby's defenses can be explained away if you choose to think about it. It takes equal or less hand waving as 'two godfathers' in my view.

However this disadvantage is counteracted by the fact that I have had a lot of time over this game to talk to Kirby and to challenge him in real time. He has responded well, which as we've seen is hard to do when you have my full attention. Then again, a few town folded to that pressure as well so it isn't a universal signifier of alignment if you are able to stand up to it.

If either of you have any questions for me about anything related to me I am available to answer them, but it seems both of you have decided on your 'target' of the day. One sincerely, one in hopes that I will make an error. I've made a few errors this game, at least neither one of you is rolling over. On the other hand if one of you did I suppose I'd know to lynch the other.

This question might not be all that useful, but I figure it's worth asking something rather than not asking anything at all.

From Day 1, Chris, you knew you were Vengeful. You did not know about the role change gimmick, I would assume. Thus, for every Star Wars night that you survived, Chris, let's assume that you had died instead. Who would you have shot?

I imagine this question should be easy to answer if you're telling the truth.

Mostly yeah.

Night 1 was Ben. Within 5 minutes of Ben talking to me in neighbor chat kind of had a death wish.

Night 3 I was really torn on between Arti and Isquen. That would have been a last minute decision.

Night 5 was the 'none of you guys post enough' crew.

Night 7 was Mzero

Night 9 was Ctes