Board 8 > Star Wars and Pokemon Mafia Topic 13 - The Last Topic

(+) Yeah! (+)

Kirby321 posted...

If you ask me, Sultan died because he was the next best option rather than gambling on who is the Doctor, and whether they even exist on Star Wars nights. But in any case, we're clearly opinionated on this matter. It's speculation, but I don't think this point of discussion is conclusive.

Why do you specify "on Star Wars nights" here? Unless you're scum, scum has no way of knowing of their existence at all do they? Certainly not more on Pokemon nights than Star Wars nights.

Kirby321 posted...

What's the point of sending in MZero to do the kills? Let's think about this. If I'm scum, and nobody counter-claimed my Watcher claim, it's reasonable to assume there's no Watcher. However, there were two claimed Flavor Cops.

But if we look at the Doppelganger role, we see this statement: "If a player targets you directly, you will be shown in their result as your actual self." This means that MZero would have shown up as Ditto to Hb and Arti, no matter who he disguised as (and this is a revelation I had just now realized).

By D7, nobody claimed Cop for Pokmon side, despite theoretically having three scans by that point. The odds of that happening are very slim. By D7, it would have been reasonable to assume that (if I were scum) the only Town investigative roles were two measly Flavor Cops. But those break through Doppelganger, so what's the purpose of the Doppelganger otherwise?

In other words, my role has to be opposed to MZero's in order to make sense. This is the same argument used to justify Vengeful Chris with respect to Bulletproof Lea. Doppelganger doesn't counter Flavor Cop or regular Cop. It counters Watcher.

First of all, MZero probably sent in kills the whole game on those nights, there are points where they had no idea of roles.

Argh, you rather often put up these assumptions or statements with huge fallacies in then. I can come with a small handful just off of memory. It's not the same argument at all. Bulletproof has no function with something that can shoot. Doppelganger still has plenty of utility without any watcher. Why are you talking like Doppelganger has no purpose if it does not counter any watcher? That makes no sense.

Kirby321 posted...

Counterpoint: You being a second Star Wars Godfather would explain why Death scanned you innocent.

Bam. Just found a scenario that checks out and only banks on that single premise. Doesn't require an alignment change, nor does it require Chris the God of Death to sacrifice his teammates like lambs to slaughter.

Really, before you replaced in for Scare, the "Scare is Godfather" theory was quite popular. It was brushed aside when Isquen was revealed as Ninja-Godfather, but some still held on to the theory given that Town had two Flavor Cops.

Argh, that's hardly a counterpoint is it. I know my role and I need a lot of conditionals to be true here. Those come in all sizes btw. Calling it a single premise in the grand scheme of things is oversimplifying, don't you think? Let alone that it requires two godthather's and Death to actually hit one of them, but a lot of the things you're using as cases for yourself would also be weird plays if Scare had been the scum. Considering you should be at the final day here being nervous, calling this a simple solution sure is bold.

Kirby321 posted...

Do you really believe Vengeful and Ghost are in the same setup? Two roles that punish Scum for killing townies?

This is another thing. They don't necessarily punish scum just because they can. Ghost gives another voice, but it's another town vanilla that might as well be wrong. Vengeful is a double edged sword for town. Not just because of bulletproof existing, but because it can obviously backfire against town too.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

... Also why did they kill death night 4 when they still had an unscanned godfather. That's actually a point in your favor, HB. Killing Death night 4 makes much more sense if scare was godfather and they felt like death had done them enough of a solid and they wanted to remove him. Scum has much higher equity this game if isquen managed to be scanned innocent.

I think "much more" is a good stretch here, it's a great move in both cases. Someone like MZero would be an obvious target and even if he doesn't hit that, people like JC and Abacus were often on those ??? lists of people's that you yourself suggested scanners looked at. Death was dangerous in every case where he doesn't hit Isquen.

Kirby321 posted...

I don't want to meta this too much since Han discouraged us from metaing PM flavor, but that Mewtwo argument is preposterous when scum knew about Professor Oak from the start and Anorith from D2.

Well, we don't know if scum knew about that flip from the start, do we. The point obviously still stands though.

Looks like you already made the case about the Death kill.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Oh. I just plain ass misread that. Why the hell did they keep HB alive so long I am so confused lol. I think I read the role and was like 'well of course this makes sense he could hide from flavor cop during these nights so that's why hb lived for so long.'

Huh.

Hmm, I'm not seeing Chris misreading this if he had known about that role the whole day, does he think of faking something like this. It derails the topic a bit at least, but I doubt it.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

I have been a little less than forthcoming to watch this play out and to see how you both engaged with each other as well as with me and the game as a whole but one of my great mafia regrets is all those years ago not listening to my instincts just because of a scan. I doubt I can let myself repeat that mistake.

I found this game in fettbox, although the topic where you lose appears to be the one not there lol. That game doesn't seem to have two godfathers so don't let regret make you think you're in the same situation here. This scan (plays aside, I haven't read that game) has more going for it by itself. Scumhunting feels more natural than towndefending, but I am getting increasingly afraid of the mislynch.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

They kept Kirby alive because he sucks as watcher and many people have been suspicious of him.

This is another weird thing to say, but I know for sure I would have night killed Kirby and not Sbell if I was the scum. Not only is it the guaranteed way of not risky the watch that by numbers is getting more and more dangerous, Kirby also wasn't a bigger mislynch option than SBell, at least not at all to the point of taking that risk. Sbell in fact would have nothing going for him today that I don't. I said on my first day playing I'd raise an eyebrow if Kirby was still alive then and it's why I first went back and try to think of ways he could be scum the previous day.

I just had a line of thought wondering if MZero could have hit doctor and protected against Vengeful if that somehow happened at the same time, but I'm not sure order of operations work like that and it's pointless to speculate about anyways.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

I gave this a lot of due diligence and even made sure to sleep before crystalizing this but ctes is going to have to say something heroic when he wakes up to change me from this course.

I am not sure if you're saying this because it's true or to put me in a similar situation as you put Kirby in saying something close to the opposite yesterday. Not like it can't be the latter and a true statement. Hmph, doesn't change anything I suppose.

So I caught up. None of you commented on my balance thoughts. I know that the good ratio of town/scum doesn't scale linearly with the number of players but look at those scum roles. Another godfather? Cmon.

Nah I for sure don't think to fake a misread, just an oops and a cognitive bias.

If Sbell is here over Kirby I snap vote you start of day with zero hesitation. I know Sbell's stubborn streak pretty well and Sbell being an ass about Ulti for a lifetime is like, classic Sbell. Same thing if you had died and flipped town and it was kirby vs sbell in another timeline. Sbell was firmly in his town meta.

I am not sure if you're saying this because it's true or to put me in a similar situation as you put Kirby in saying something close to the opposite yesterday. Not like it can't be the latter and a true statement. Hmph, doesn't change anything I suppose.

I hope you can appreciate that statements like these make you hard to trust. Kirby flipped out which feels genuine while you seem to be very good at assessing situations calmly. You are a cool customer, and Kirby feels like he isn't. It feels like I know his measure fully while you I am still trying to figure out.

In fairness to you, a little bit of both there is the correct answer.

As for the Death thing, it just is an odd choice since he had no power that night. I want to say he claimed that fact too but that might be me misremembering.

Also good ole dark tower mafia. I remember they didn't archive me losing. It's true, only one godfather there.

ctesjbuvf posted...

So I caught up. None of you commented on my balance thoughts. I know that the good ratio of town/scum doesn't scale linearly with the number of players but look at those scum roles. Another godfather? Cmon.

I am earnestly not even wanting to begin to talk the nuance of balance in this game. This game is pretty crazy overall. I want that to be like the last thing on my mind. Which I think isn't too swingy in my thought process either way as both things you are potentially bringing to the table as scum seem strong.

By the way, in case it wasn't obvious... I hate days like today. I do everything in my power to avoid them. I talked earlier in the game about that anxiousness you get when you consider how your actions are going to lead. That 'stop' moment as you wait for the result to come in, good or bad. I talk a lot about how good I am, well deserved in my estimate, but moments like this where I have to choose between two fairly earnest seeming people when I know one of you is doing everything in your power to deceive me is both the peak of the mafia experience but also wrecks my nerves.

Today has mostly been speculating for me and defending for Kirby. For one of the two likely looking lynch candidates, it's a bit odd how little of it has to do with me. I know that I have a significantly shorter game than Kirby. Scare was of course there, but there was a reason I replaced him after all. I was told earlier I was basically flawless. I get that I got to enter a game as a role in a good position, but I literally haven't played here for so long and under different enough circumstances that I might as well not have ever played here before. As much as I want to say I have a good intuition for a game like this, there is an alignment reason you're thinking it's flawless.

I know we can't truly look at today in a vacuum as I came in with an idea of who was scum to begin with, but looking at the day today alone, Kirby also seems like the better choice of voting to me. That third party stunt early on alone doesn't look great imo. I hear trying to bait scum into voting, but couldn't you as well have had that backfire and baited town? I don't think Kirby expects to trick Chris there, it looks like an attempt to bait me into voting. Was a town Kirby sure enough that I was the right call? Looks like it from the rest of the day, but he's talking like he wasn't. Moving away from today a bit, I also can't forget that Kirby was already saying Ctes or Abacus yesterday but not at all the day before. Like, I just read something about people thinking Scare might be godfather even after the scan but I recall no such thing, certainly not someone making a deal about it.

The play today from Kirby has been a lot of "tell me how this can be true if I'm scum?" from a player that also has some very questionable moves as town, most notably gladiating chang and not watching Ulti. A fine amount of these questions have not had too unlikely answers needed to be true, but yet he's countering as if it would be any weird to find things in hindsight that were not ideal plays in a ten day game.

I keep thinking in between writing these things "what if Chris is the scum" and I'm not reaching anything. It's gonna look stupid if it ends up being the case, but I'm not getting there.

When I think of flawless I think of a perfect ball. So flawless that it slips from your grasp because there is nothing to hold onto. Vs a Kirby who has lots of chips and jagged corners that I feel I can grasp tightly and get a hold of more easily.

I like my metaphors.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

If Sbell is here over Kirby I snap vote you start of day with zero hesitation. I know Sbell's stubborn streak pretty well and Sbell being an ass about Ulti for a lifetime is like, classic Sbell. Same thing if you had died and flipped town and it was kirby vs sbell in another timeline. Sbell was firmly in his town meta.

Well, you know that. I wouldn't. I have read one other game, the previous one of yours, and Sbell had a way better game then, perhaps because his marriage wasn't in the middle of it, doesn't matter why. If you're telling me I would have lost as scum that's fair, but I would have kept him alive.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

I hope you can appreciate that statements like these make you hard to trust. Kirby flipped out which feels genuine while you seem to be very good at assessing situations calmly. You are a cool customer, and Kirby feels like he isn't. It feels like I know his measure fully while you I am still trying to figure out.

Well, you already began the day saying you would have shot me. I know no one's measure fully and is trying to figure yours out too. To be honest, I think this is mostly just how we'd act regardless of alignment.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

I am earnestly not even wanting to begin to talk the nuance of balance in this game. This game is pretty crazy overall. I want that to be like the last thing on my mind. Which I think isn't too swingy in my thought process either way as both things you are potentially bringing to the table as scum seem strong.

Maybe I'm repeating something you simply don't want to consider here, but I kept bringing up a role that does not necessarily flip as a way to not make scum seem too strong. I do understand not thinking about this though, it's not something that can be done with certainty.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

By the way, in case it wasn't obvious... I hate days like today. I do everything in my power to avoid them. I talked earlier in the game about that anxiousness you get when you consider how your actions are going to lead. That 'stop' moment as you wait for the result to come in, good or bad. I talk a lot about how good I am, well deserved in my estimate, but moments like this where I have to choose between two fairly earnest seeming people when I know one of you is doing everything in your power to deceive me is both the peak of the mafia experience but also wrecks my nerves.

I get that. It has made me both regret not signing up from the start (not that I can say anything about if I would have made alive at this point if I had) and made me want to play again.

Would Scare be this disinterested about the game if he had a good mafia role and actuall got the scan you dream of as godfather? I want to say no, but in fainess, I don't think much of scare's play can be said anything about, he just wasn't here.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Would Scare be this disinterested about the game if he had a good mafia role and actuall got the scan you dream of as godfather? I want to say no, but in fainess, I don't think much of scare's play can be said anything about, he just wasn't here.

I don't understand why Scare who literally can not be shut up doesn't barge in here like he owns the place, runs his mouth, and gets shit done. Dude literally could have been talking all the way through yesterday as a man who died n1.

I just thought about how Windu as cop and Palpatine as godfather is perfect. The person who became his downfall.

Kirby playing in your game last time was the first time you saw him play right? When he was independent who started out closest to town and ended up closer to scum at least in terms of knowledge. Have his play now seemed closer to his early play to you or his late play?

This is an honest question.

First time yeah. I felt his day one was similar to how he played last game in general. As the game has gone on he seems on average less collected than he did last game. If I were to describe it.... less careful I suppose? As host he appeared measured to me. This game is a lot different in that regard.

I don't feel like he played last game as he would have as scum though. Informed he was but he had nothing to gain from harming town.

I'm considering what is the smart move here, but I'm running a bit out of ideas tbh. I don't think the circumstances of the game paint Kirby town as much as it seemed you did. I was thinking this the last as well, I mean, he looked better than MZero and Abacus that had little going for him, but I never lumped him in with you or HB. If feel like Sbell and I was painted in a confirmed light that would fit if no godfather had been revealed yet, but one godfather already flipping on that same night should put us way past that. Yes, the game had two flavor scanners, but that's not nearly as strong a duplicate. Anakin Skywalker just does not make it to the end of Star Wars as a good guy >_>

If you're town and what you say about Sbell is true, then ghost is not the only reason it's a shame he was killed in my place.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Kirby you aren't good enough to fool me here. I think our interactions were way too genuine since day one for you to be scum here. I think the way you talked to the different scum over the days was genuine and earnest. I think your failings this game have been earnest.

Does this mean you acknowledge Kirby hasn't had too great a game but just seemed earnest while doing it? Some of these failings are scumtells in my head.

The whole game today for him has been using PoE to get me lynched. He outed me for not looking into you enough, but he hasn't done anything like that himself. The only things he has been kind of after you with was basically about not decisively believing him. These things have often been clouded by statements like "this has to be for me to be scum" and they're just never really true. The only thing about my play has been vague non telling things about Scare that could be a scum connection if he was in fact that. Then I suppose the claim claim Scare being godfather was a big thing at some point and still existing after the scan which just isn't right. The only thing about me basically being that I'm hard to trust because I'm good at assessing situations calmly. I know I haven't been in the game for a long as you, but still more than a fair bunch and I'm been very active the whole time. This is very frustrating.

Kirby, I noticed you've been on the site at least. Are you writing something or just letting time pass?

ctesjbuvf posted...

Why do you specify "on Star Wars nights" here? Unless you're scum, scum has no way of knowing of their existence at all do they? Certainly not more on Pokemon nights than Star Wars nights.

Sultan died on a Star Wars night. That's really all there is to it. IGCD was a Star Wars night Bodyguard, so it's possible there might not have been other protection roles on the Star Wars side. Given how loaded the scum roles were, though, that's wasn't a likely possibility, but still a gamble nonetheless.

ctesjbuvf posted...

First of all, MZero probably sent in kills the whole game on those nights, there are points where they had no idea of roles.

Argh, you rather often put up these assumptions or statements with huge fallacies in then. I can come with a small handful just off of memory. It's not the same argument at all. Bulletproof has no function with something that can shoot. Doppelganger still has plenty of utility without any watcher. Why are you talking like Doppelganger has no purpose if it does not counter any watcher? That makes no sense.

Without a Watcher, Doppelganger is just a glorified role cop (and presumably flavor cop) that gets to use whatever powers it targets. Psychic can interact with Doppelganger's impostor trait, but in an extremely limited fashion.

A Doppelganger without Watcher is just overkill. The trait of appearing as someone else when visiting somebody would only be useful when specifically visiting Corrik, which is a very limited application. It's one thing to get Town in a role meta trap with two Flavor Cops, but meta trapping the Scum and making them believe there's a Watcher role of some sort without there actually being one is evil.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Argh, that's hardly a counterpoint is it. I know my role and I need a lot of conditionals to be true here. Those come in all sizes btw. Calling it a single premise in the grand scheme of things is oversimplifying, don't you think? Let alone that it requires two godthather's and Death to actually hit one of them, but a lot of the things you're using as cases for yourself would also be weird plays if Scare had been the scum. Considering you should be at the final day here being nervous, calling this a simple solution sure is bold.

Death scanning you is not a conditional. It happened, you scanned innocent, and that's a fact. Why did you scan innocent? There's only two possible options at this point in time: you are town, or you are a Godfather.

If you are town, then Death God Chris would have to be the reality of this game. Plausible, but something tells me Ben, Lea, and Sheep wouldn't agree to such a risky plan. ... Well, maybe Ben would, and Lea has proven to be crafty, but Sheep doesn't strike me as somebody who would willingly stake the entire victory on Chris flawlessly fooling everybody. Lack of a poison is also a hole in this theory. Chris did propose a theory where Isquen bit the bullet sooner than the scum likely intended, and that could've been a miscalculation in their plan under this theory. But it still requires an insane amount of risk with burying two very strong scum roles (at least in the form of Tracker/Poisoner and Redirector).

That's a lot of explanation compared to the alternate theory: if you are Godfather, that resolves why you were scanned innocent by Death. Nothing else gets contradicted because Scare has had zero presence this game and thus had very few interactions to be incriminated with. The only hiccup is the fact that Isquen already flipped Ninja-Godfather, so would double Godfathers be that likely? We see that town had two Pokmon-sided Flavor Cops, so it's not out of the question.

Perhaps it is a bit oversimplifying, but it's a less convoluted explanation than a townie switching sides to scum while also being excommunicated from the core scum team... and also being a Gladiator/Watcher. A scum Watcher that can't relay their scans to the team seems very counterintuitive.

ctesjbuvf posted...

This is another thing. They don't necessarily punish scum just because they can. Ghost gives another voice, but it's another town vanilla that might as well be wrong. Vengeful is a double edged sword for town. Not just because of bulletproof existing, but because it can obviously backfire against town too.

Ghost can't be voted, though. They can be wrong, but they don't have to fear being lynched for saying the wrong thing. Scum has an easier time manipulating a smaller pool of alive townies, and Ghost adds a voice that can't be silenced. I see Ghost as a straight punishment for Scum here.

Vengeful backfiring on town is a good point, though. I'll concede that.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Hmm, I'm not seeing Chris misreading this if he had known about that role the whole day, does he think of faking something like this. It derails the topic a bit at least, but I doubt it.

Chris faking it could have been theatrics to deceive. That reaction felt a bit too genuine, though, especially with all of the arguments Chris tried to make against me using that misconception.

I'm 90% sure the scum team would've asked Han questions to ensure they understood the role before using it. Tbh, I can't even blame Chris for his assumption since it's an easy one to make just by the name alone. The wording of the role seemed off to me, and it seemed really counterintuitive to appear as somebody else's flavor, but it didn't cross my mind until I looked at it again yesterday and realized that the nuance with Flavor Cop was misunderstood.

ctesjbuvf posted...

This is another weird thing to say, but I know for sure I would have night killed Kirby and not Sbell if I was the scum. Not only is it the guaranteed way of not risky the watch that by numbers is getting more and more dangerous, Kirby also wasn't a bigger mislynch option than SBell, at least not at all to the point of taking that risk. Sbell in fact would have nothing going for him today that I don't. I said on my first day playing I'd raise an eyebrow if Kirby was still alive then and it's why I first went back and try to think of ways he could be scum the previous day.

I just had a line of thought wondering if MZero could have hit doctor and protected against Vengeful if that somehow happened at the same time, but I'm not sure order of operations work like that and it's pointless to speculate about anyways.

Now that is a statement. If you were scum, you'd keep the other dude scanned innocent by Death alive? So then you'd say Chris would therefore be scum, right? Because you do realize that the only way for Sbell to be scum is... wait for it...

Double Godfather! I thought you didn't believe in that argument?

Truly, if there was no Watcher, the right play would've been to kill Hb as soon as MZero died. With no protection, why would scum fear anybody? All of the Town roles were practically outed by that point. Granted, the recovered scans ended up being a tad useless, but... seriously, Hb and Chris were the most Town-like people here. Sbell had the scan to his name, but so do you. The only reason they'd go after Sbell is if they feared me, the Watcher.

... Which means that you believe I'm actually a Town Watcher. Because you said you'd kill me if you were Scum. So I'm guessing you've officially changed your stance now to believing Chris is the scum?

ctesjbuvf posted...

Kirby, I noticed you've been on the site at least. Are you writing something or just letting time pass?

My signature walls (TM) take time to develop.

... But I also got distracted listening to the Mega Man 10 soundtrack in the middle of writing

Oh I knew there was something I meant to respond to but forgot about.

ctesjbuvf posted...

I know we can't truly look at today in a vacuum as I came in with an idea of who was scum to begin with, but looking at the day today alone, Kirby also seems like the better choice of voting to me. That third party stunt early on alone doesn't look great imo. I hear trying to bait scum into voting, but couldn't you as well have had that backfire and baited town? I don't think Kirby expects to trick Chris there, it looks like an attempt to bait me into voting. Was a town Kirby sure enough that I was the right call? Looks like it from the rest of the day, but he's talking like he wasn't.

Oh boy I was waiting for somebody to bring this up. Yes, my intention was to bait an early vote. 100%. I will fully admit that.

But I very much aimed it at scum, not town. Let's think of it the following scenarios:

A) Scum believes me and votes for the other townie. They just outed themselves, so I and the other townie vote for the scum. Ideal scenario.

B) The townie doesn't believe me and votes me as scum. If I were scum, I can't do anything here but it certainly doesn't look good for me. If I were town, then the other scum comes and hammers.

C) The townie believes me and, believing the game is doomed, snap votes somebody. We obviously lose here if they vote me and I am town, but somebody who tosses out a snap vote like that as town would be, to put it bluntly, extremely foolish.

D) No one believes me and the game just simply goes on.

There isn't a benefit at all to doing my stunt as scum. If I'm calling out the other "scum" and asking them to vote, why the hell would town vote in response? I'd have a very huge risk of losing the game as scum by doing this.

Yeah, fair enough lol.

Kirby321 posted...

Ghost can't be voted, though. They can be wrong, but they don't have to fear being lynched for saying the wrong thing. Scum has an easier time manipulating a smaller pool of alive townies, and Ghost adds a voice that can't be silenced. I see Ghost as a straight punishment for Scum here.

I don't fear being lynched for saying the wrong thing being alive, though today I fear being lynched before there's not enough evidence for anyone being scum. As I ghost I wouldn't be able to vote for anyone either. Also might as well argue for the wrong thing, that's backfiring, even if nothing too strong. That goes both ways.

Kirby321 posted...

Now that is a statement. If you were scum, you'd keep the other dude scanned innocent by Death alive? So then you'd say Chris would therefore be scum, right? Because you do realize that the only way for Sbell to be scum is... wait for it...

Double Godfather! I thought you didn't believe in that argument?

Truly, if there was no Watcher, the right play would've been to kill Hb as soon as MZero died. With no protection, why would scum fear anybody? All of the Town roles were practically outed by that point. Granted, the recovered scans ended up being a tad useless, but... seriously, Hb and Chris were the most Town-like people here. Sbell had the scan to his name, but so do you. The only reason they'd go after Sbell is if they feared me, the Watcher.

... Which means that you believe I'm actually a Town Watcher. Because you said you'd kill me if you were Scum. So I'm guessing you've officially changed your stance now to believing Chris is the scum?

Don't try to derail this point into some nonsense that you know is not what I'm saying. The point was I would have not risked a watcher being alive if I was scum, which is a case against you, the watcher, because you're still alive. Also at that point of the game, it was pretty clear that the rest of you didn't think an innocent scan with a dead godfather was as big a town clear as yours. I was trying to make Chris think about if what would have been the right move if I was the scum he leaned that I was and I think you know that.

Kirby321 posted...

A Doppelganger without Watcher is just overkill. The trait of appearing as someone else when visiting somebody would only be useful when specifically visiting Corrik, which is a very limited application. It's one thing to get Town in a role meta trap with two Flavor Cops, but meta trapping the Scum and making them believe there's a Watcher role of some sort without there actually being one is evil.

You're trying to compare apples to oranges here. It's not a role meta trap in that sense at all. The town trap with the flavor cops is that they counterclaim each other, that doesn't happen with doppelganger... at all. It's not more meta trapping than a cop not being on those nights when it says they still scan as dark side. Also scum clearly has enough power roles, I'm not too worried about that role not being as strong in this setup as it could have been, seems fair enough.

Kirby321 posted...

Oh boy I was waiting for somebody to bring this up. Yes, my intention was to bait an early vote. 100%. I will fully admit that.

But I very much aimed it at scum, not town. Let's think of it the following scenarios:

A) Scum believes me and votes for the other townie. They just outed themselves, so I and the other townie vote for the scum. Ideal scenario.

B) The townie doesn't believe me and votes me as scum. If I were scum, I can't do anything here but it certainly doesn't look good for me. If I were town, then the other scum comes and hammers.

C) The townie believes me and, believing the game is doomed, snap votes somebody. We obviously lose here if they vote me and I am town, but somebody who tosses out a snap vote like that as town would be, to put it bluntly, extremely foolish.

D) No one believes me and the game just simply goes on.

There isn't a benefit at all to doing my stunt as scum. If I'm calling out the other "scum" and asking them to vote, why the hell would town vote in response? I'd have a very huge risk of losing the game as scum by doing this.

A town person doing something like that is a huge risk. It's an instant loss if you bait the person you don't want to bait. You can't argue against that. I have a hard time believing a town person would think scum was likely enough to bait to take the risk. I'm not even sure I get the last paragraph.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Don't try to derail this point into some nonsense that you know is not what I'm saying. The point was I would have not risked a watcher being alive if I was scum, which is a case against you, the watcher, because you're still alive. Also at that point of the game, it was pretty clear that the rest of you didn't think an innocent scan with a dead godfather was as big a town clear as yours. I was trying to make Chris think about if what would have been the right move if I was the scum he leaned that I was and I think you know that.

But you would leave the scanned townie alive? Again, if you were scum, how would you have planned to win a final three with you, Chris, and Sbell? The same arguments you could make against Sbell could very easily be used against you.

Meanwhile, the only thing I have to my name is Watcher. It's far easier to convince others that I'm lying when my flavor is Anakin Skywalker and my usage of role actions this game weren't exactly well-thought out.

But again, if I were scum, why wouldn't I kill Hb immediately? There's no risk. No scanners, no protection. The fact that Sbell didn't move should've been information that was buried along with Hb. As soon as MZero died, there was zero reason to keep Hb alive at all. He only died on the Star Wars night when there were no other power roles that could have interfered with killing Hb.

Even you admitted scum wouldn't kill Sbell unless they feared being watched that night.

HB said pretty clearly you he'd scan yesterday. From your posts Kirby, Sbell does seem like a good place to not be watched. Sbell and I should not be as easy to force a mislynch on. Now you just said it's between SBell and I, but seriously, how is two godfathers the most likely possibility you see?

(Topic 12, Post 258)

ctesjbuvf posted...

You're trying to compare apples to oranges here. It's not a role meta trap in that sense at all. The town trap with the flavor cops is that they counterclaim each other, that doesn't happen with doppelganger... at all. It's not more meta trapping than a cop not being on those nights when it says they still scan as dark side. Also scum clearly has enough power roles, I'm not too worried about that role not being as strong in this setup as it could have been, seems fair enough.

Tracker breaks through Doppelganger, too, so what's the point of sending out the Doppelganger to carry out the nightkills if there's no Watcher to screw with? It's an unnecessary risk given that MZero also had the crucial Thief role that rendered Hb useless on Star Wars nights, so it's better to send somebody else with a less valuable role on the off chance there was a Tracker on the Pokmon side. Again, if I'm scum, we knew there was a very, very low chance of there being another Watcher as early as D4.

A Doppelganger without Watcher is a meta trap in the sense that it the role implies messing around with specific scans but in actuality has no impact whatsoever on town scans because the Watcher isn't in the setup. If Pokmon side had a Tracker and they scanned MZero, scum would have been mega screwed.

Earlier in this topic, we both agreed MZero carried out all of the nightkills on the Pokmon side. Why would scum do that if they knew there wasn't a Watcher on the Town side?

ctesjbuvf posted...

A town person doing something like that is a huge risk. It's an instant loss if you bait the person you don't want to bait. You can't argue against that. I have a hard time believing a town person would think scum was likely enough to bait to take the risk. I'm not even sure I get the last paragraph.

But why would town take my bait? You know you're not scum. If you were going to snap vote, why would you vote someone else other than me? Sure, the entire thing completely backfires if one of you guys votes for me, but that's not really a bait, is it? If I were scum, I'd be trying to get you or Chris to vote for each other by... convincing one of you that you are, indeed, scum? I specifically called out scum to vote for the other person. If both of you are town, wtf are you doing voting for the other guy lol

There's no benefit for scum taking that kind of risk. I'll be real, I didn't think that gambit would actually work, but it would've been really funny if it did, especially since I was playing on scum's penchant for spreading the word about third parties or whatever.

Kirby321 posted...

But you would leave the scanned townie alive? Again, if you were scum, how would you have planned to win a final three with you, Chris, and Sbell? The same arguments you could make against Sbell could very easily be used against you.

Meanwhile, the only thing I have to my name is Watcher. It's far easier to convince others that I'm lying when my flavor is Anakin Skywalker and my usage of role actions this game weren't exactly well-thought out.

But again, if I were scum, why wouldn't I kill Hb immediately? There's no risk. No scanners, no protection. The fact that Sbell didn't move should've been information that was buried along with Hb. As soon as MZero died, there was zero reason to keep Hb alive at all. He only died on the Star Wars night when there were no other power roles that could have interfered with killing Hb.

Even you admitted scum wouldn't kill Sbell unless they feared being watched that night.

I'm not even sure where you're trying to take this discussion here. I don't know or have to know how I would deal that final 3, I'm saying specifically I would not have risked the watcher and I'm having a hard time imagining anyone would play wifom in that scenario.

Stop acting like you have been the obvious lynch to anyone at any point. My best bet is you're the scum and it's not looking like I convinced anyone so it almost looks like an insult (don't believe it is, ftr, but jeez).

You have got to stop setting up these misleading questions constantly. If you're actually the town here, then you're wasting our time with questions like "If I'm town why wouldn't I kill HB right away". This is what seems scum to me. You're presenting that question as if killing HB would have been a better play for a scum Kirby when it wouldn't at all. You mostly just needed to not kill Abacus that night and you were fine. If you had killed HB, you could've also said "Why didn't I kill Sbell here?". And i don't know, maybe because Sbell was the one thinking there was likely a scum among the obvious scum? It doesn't matter why this was done, there was no ideal choice that night.

Yes, I said that, it made more sense if Abacus was the scum.

Kirby321 posted...

Tracker breaks through Doppelganger, too, so what's the point of sending out the Doppelganger to carry out the nightkills if there's no Watcher to screw with? It's an unnecessary risk given that MZero also had the crucial Thief role that rendered Hb useless on Star Wars nights, so it's better to send somebody else with a less valuable role on the off chance there was a Tracker on the Pokmon side. Again, if I'm scum, we knew there was a very, very low chance of there being another Watcher as early as D4.

A Doppelganger without Watcher is a meta trap in the sense that it the role implies messing around with specific scans but in actuality has no impact whatsoever on town scans because the Watcher isn't in the setup. If Pokmon side had a Tracker and they scanned MZero, scum would have been mega screwed.

Earlier in this topic, we both agreed MZero carried out all of the nightkills on the Pokmon side. Why would scum do that if they knew there wasn't a Watcher on the Town side?

Scum couldn't feel good about that before N4 and it's not like there was a much better choice. Lea seemed to be what roleblocking they had, Isquen was immune to all scanners the opposite choice and you'd be much more valuable to held on for late game than the others. This is also a misleading question because it paints it as if it would be a bad move if they were certain there was no watcher. It's like what... one night, night 6 where MZero wouldn't have to be the best bet, but he might as well be. We don't even know if he did it that night.

Kirby321 posted...

But why would town take my bait? You know you're not scum. If you were going to snap vote, why would you vote someone else other than me? Sure, the entire thing completely backfires if one of you guys votes for me, but that's not really a bait, is it? If I were scum, I'd be trying to get you or Chris to vote for each other by... convincing one of you that you are, indeed, scum? I specifically called out scum to vote for the other person. If both of you are town, wtf are you doing voting for the other guy lol

There's no benefit for scum taking that kind of risk. I'll be real, I didn't think that gambit would actually work, but it would've been really funny if it did, especially since I was playing on scum's penchant for spreading the word about third parties or whatever.

You posted that with the intent of people believing that you were SK or you posted it as a flat out joke. "Why would town take my bait?" you say, idk, why would scum? I don't see any of the two being any likely and a bad move both either alignment. I'm not saying you took a huge risk, I'm saying it wouldn't be a good move as town.

My alarm went off successfully. Excellent.

I am going to grab a bite to eat and then read.

I'm getting increasingly nervous because even if I somehow get past avoiding the mislynch, I know the anxiety of worrying about me making it instead. What a final day this has been.

Man, I'm really going to feel silly if we're both actually town and have been butting heads the entire time while Chris just sits back and watches as the town burns lol

But to humor the investigation into the nightkill patterns, let's see...

N1: IGCD - Highly doubt this was a lucky shot in the dark. Very likely either Hb or Chris was targeted. For Chris to be scum here, he would've instructed Ben and Isquen to make those statements about who IGCD guarded. Plausible, but we still have an N1 Thief action unaccounted for. Granted, it doesn't make sense for them to use Thief on Chris and also aim to kill him. Crackpot theory was that they aimed for somebody completely different, who IGCD also happened to target (or they just outright killed IGCD for some reason). Looking back, Chris also pointed out the insanity of the crackpot theory.

N2: Corrik - Yeah this one is a mystery to me. I thought I recalled Corrik constantly suspecting Chris, but looking back at the topic, he's quite the wildcard. Seems on D2 he was more interested in pushing Ben. But I did get this really nice insight from there:

I do believe you planned to claim mason.. and that you also shot Chris last night as well expecting him to die.

Chris has no reason to playball with you after you confirm your power with him dead after you either lie and say he changed his mind on you or claim mason outright. So you have no incentive to not claim mason there once you got something from Chris to corroborate your power.

But, if you chose someone you expected to be alive, you can't do this... and choosing someone alive is the best plan for confirming your role anyways.

I don't think this theory is totally sound, but it is Ben we're talking about here. Makes me wonder if scum killed him out of spite. Hmm...
(Looking back I also think it's hilarious Corrik said "What am I, scum? Dead to rights because Ulti is a psychic?" lmao)

N3: Plum - ... Really the best thing I got is that scum thought me believing plum was town was because I watched him visit Chris. Or maybe it was done to use later as a point to frame me. I could see Ben suggesting something like that, if scum are allowed to talk with each other even after death (that's the impression I got from looking at the scum chat from Chris's game). He knows that I'm easy to trick. Other than that, this is a very random kill.

N4: Death - Scum had all the tools to get away with killing the Cop on a Pokmon night. This one is a no-brainer.

N5: Sultan - Kinda random, but if scum didn't know who the Doc was, denying another scanner was a safe call to make.

N6: Ulti - MZero as Doppelganger meant killing the revealed Doc was the optimal play, especially if I had actually watched Ulti.

N7: Red - ... Yeah this one is also weird. I mean, Lea was lynched the day before, so everyone believing Red was innocent isn't out of the question, I guess. But on a Star Wars night with the only scanner being blocked by MZero, they had free reign to choose anybody. Really surprised they didn't kill Chris here, in hindsight.

N8: Sbell - We've talked about this one to death. The only reasoning I can believe here is that Scum didn't want to risk getting watched by me, so they went for somebody I wouldn't have expected to watch.

N9: Hb - Obviously confirmed Tracker. No surprises there.

Overall... I guess there could be a way to fit in Chris to these killing patterns? The real wildcards are Corrik and Red, really. The post-MZero deaths are the ones worth noting imo. I guess between me (alleged Watcher), Chris (unclaimed, no scans, just raw playing ability), Ctes (inno scan), Sbell (inno scan), Hb (Tracker), and Abacus (easy mislynch target), this final three is really ideal from either scum Ctes or scum Chris's perspective.

Scum Ctes gets to leverage his scan when Chris and I haven't had any scans (aside from my watch on Chris) and could play either side of the coin depending on how the tide was swinging.

Scum Chris could feign having a dilemma between choosing between a "two Godfathers" or a "no Watcher" theory while letting his prowess this game speak for his defense, as the two townies keep going at each other.

... Eh, I don't think I see much of a conclusion in these patterns. Fun exercise, though.

ctesjbuvf posted...

I'm getting increasingly nervous because even if I somehow get past avoiding the mislynch, I know the anxiety of worrying about me making it instead. What a final day this has been.

May I ask why? You have said you keep looking at me and seeing town. Is it simply anxiety? Do you have any further questions for me?

Kirby I am pretty sure your last paragraph could fit any name you would like and it could be considered true. Like if I had died and sbell was here instead of me. 'This is the ideal final 3 for sbell or ctes, both are scanned innocent and I am not making me a perfect scapegoat' etc.

I think that may be what you said at the end but I still did a double take.

Night kills looks weird no matter what is the answer is here.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

May I ask why? You have said you keep looking at me and seeing town. Is it simply anxiety? Do you have any further questions for me?

I can't make sense of it, no, but quite frankly this is hard to make sense of to begin with. Maybe it's something that comes with the experience, though you mentioned the rush as well when I said I wish I felt better about the MZero lynch. I didn't feel fantastic about that one either despite making it clear I couldn't think of a scum team without him.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Kirby I am pretty sure your last paragraph could fit any name you would like and it could be considered true.

Hardly the first paragraph where that's the case.

Also can I just say you guys have denied me one of my favorite activities of end game where someone votes and then I go 'scum hammer' (the words not a vote) and go 'lol'

It's been so long since I have had a chance to do that.

Eating some nuts now, energy recharging pew pew

I mean, could still happen.

ctesjbuvf posted...

I'm not even sure where you're trying to take this discussion here. I don't know or have to know how I would deal that final 3, I'm saying specifically I would not have risked the watcher and I'm having a hard time imagining anyone would play wifom in that scenario.

Stop acting like you have been the obvious lynch to anyone at any point. My best bet is you're the scum and it's not looking like I convinced anyone so it almost looks like an insult (don't believe it is, ftr, but jeez).

You have got to stop setting up these misleading questions constantly. If you're actually the town here, then you're wasting our time with questions like "If I'm town why wouldn't I kill HB right away". This is what seems scum to me. You're presenting that question as if killing HB would have been a better play for a scum Kirby when it wouldn't at all. You mostly just needed to not kill Abacus that night and you were fine. If you had killed HB, you could've also said "Why didn't I kill Sbell here?". And i don't know, maybe because Sbell was the one thinking there was likely a scum among the obvious scum? It doesn't matter why this was done, there was no ideal choice that night.

Yes, I said that, it made more sense if Abacus was the scum.

My questions aren't misleading. I'm trying to prove a point: Sbell's death doesn't make sense unless scum had a reason to not kill off Hb immediately.

That reason being... because scum didn't want to be watched killing Hb or Chris. If I'm scum, I know there's no Watcher. I have a track record of messing up scans this game (especially with regard to Doc Ulti), so if Hb died and I didn't say who it was, I could've easily passed it off as "I thought they were gonna kill Chris so I decided to be big brain, and, well, I messed up. Again." Or I could've said "They got a Greninja".

As scum, I have no reason to avoid killing Hb that night. Multiple ways I could've faked it. And the benefit is that Hb's scans wouldn't have been revealed to Town and he wouldn't have affirmed Abacus's flavor. This gives me the option to indict Sbell as a Godfather instead, since nobody would have known that he did not move. Would be a stupid option, given that the argument against Sbell is far weaker than one against Scare, but an option nonetheless.

Really, if anything, you were pushing Abacus the hardest after the rest of us backed off due to Abacus's flavor not lining up with Dark Side characters.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Scum couldn't feel good about that before N4 and it's not like there was a much better choice. Lea seemed to be what roleblocking they had, Isquen was immune to all scanners the opposite choice and you'd be much more valuable to held on for late game than the others. This is also a misleading question because it paints it as if it would be a bad move if they were certain there was no watcher. It's like what... one night, night 6 where MZero wouldn't have to be the best bet, but he might as well be. We don't even know if he did it that night.

Anyone who tried to scan Lea would get roleblocked. If there was no Watcher in the setup, Lea would've been the ideal killer, not MZero.

MZero isn't immune to direct-targeted roles like Lea. Tracker would've spelled doom for MZero, but they wouldn't be able to do anything to Lea. Watcher is the opposite: it's the only role that could expose a killer Lea but fails to detect MZero.

Therefore, if you agree that MZero was the one who carried out the Pokmon-side kills, you have to agree that scum has to be aware of Watcher among the town roles. Again, this is impossible if I'm scum Watcher, but fortunately for Scum, they knew I was Watcher from N3 onward.

ctesjbuvf posted...

You posted that with the intent of people believing that you were SK or you posted it as a flat out joke. "Why would town take my bait?" you say, idk, why would scum? I don't see any of the two being any likely and a bad move both either alignment. I'm not saying you took a huge risk, I'm saying it wouldn't be a good move as town.

I fake-claimed Survivor, not Serial Killer. Faking Serial Killer would've been suicide as any alignment, that much I'll agree with.

But if you say that this gambit was a bad move for either alignment, then what's your argument? You say it's not a good move as town, but you just said it's a bad move regardless, and that includes being a bad move as scum. So what's your point?

Personally, I think it's a bad move as scum, but not necessarily a bad one for town. Is it a great move as town? Certainly not, but there are benefits for town if the gambit works.

As scum, the gambit would only work if y'all were running around like headless chickens. Again, there's no reason for you two, as townies, to vote for each other instead of me. There's no sense in taking a "bait" that clearly wasn't meant for you if you are town.

Okay I am sorry but if you're intelligent enough to realize that gambit was dogshit as scum then you are intelligent enough to realize it is a good ploy to do that gambit as scum and then go 'wow that would have made no sense as scum!" Ctes was asleep at the time and there is no chance in hell kirby as town, scum, indy, or a man from mars would think I would anything other than chastise there.

If anything, considering that play in a vacuum, it makes the most sense for scum to do it for this very purpose in terms of equity.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Also can I just say you guys have denied me one of my favorite activities of end game where someone votes and then I go 'scum hammer' (the words not a vote) and go 'lol'

It's been so long since I have had a chance to do that.

Eating some nuts now, energy recharging pew pew

Honestly, I think I'm ready to vote now. I think it's pretty clear Ctes will vote for me and I will vote for Ctes.

I was gonna make a proposition that you should vote first, Chris, as an insurance for just in case you are the remaining scum, but thinking about it, that tactic is easy to thwart and probably overly-convoluted.

I'll cast my vote once everyone is ready.

Actually now I am just annoyed. On the one hand you have ctes, who doesn't say flat out stupid statements like this. But on the other hand his blank slate from before was scare who gave me nothing. Then there is Kirby, who will say frankly some scummy ass shit but then follow it up 2 posts later with some towny ass shit and my GENERAL RULE is towny ass shit is really hard to fake for a long time. Even Lea, who I hesitated on, I at least never last sight of her obvious path to scum and why she might be doing what she was doing.

Anyway

ctesjbuvf posted...

I'm considering what is the smart move here, but I'm running a bit out of ideas tbh. I don't think the circumstances of the game paint Kirby town as much as it seemed you did. I was thinking this the last as well, I mean, he looked better than MZero and Abacus that had little going for him, but I never lumped him in with you or HB. If feel like Sbell and I was painted in a confirmed light that would fit if no godfather had been revealed yet, but one godfather already flipping on that same night should put us way past that. Yes, the game had two flavor scanners, but that's not nearly as strong a duplicate. Anakin Skywalker just does not make it to the end of Star Wars as a good guy >_>

If you're town and what you say about Sbell is true, then ghost is not the only reason it's a shame he was killed in my place.

Does this mean you acknowledge Kirby hasn't had too great a game but just seemed earnest while doing it? Some of these failings are scumtells in my head.

The whole game today for him has been using PoE to get me lynched. He outed me for not looking into you enough, but he hasn't done anything like that himself. The only things he has been kind of after you with was basically about not decisively believing him. These things have often been clouded by statements like "this has to be for me to be scum" and they're just never really true. The only thing about my play has been vague non telling things about Scare that could be a scum connection if he was in fact that. Then I suppose the claim claim Scare being godfather was a big thing at some point and still existing after the scan which just isn't right. The only thing about me basically being that I'm hard to trust because I'm good at assessing situations calmly. I know I haven't been in the game for a long as you, but still more than a fair bunch and I'm been very active the whole time. This is very frustrating.

'he outed me into not looking into you enough' is an odd phrase to use here. This is something I agree with though when it comes to him sniping you for not being more critical of me. Feels very forced. Like I said above.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Okay I am sorry but if you're intelligent enough to realize that gambit was dogshit as scum then you are intelligent enough to realize it is a good ploy to do that gambit as scum and then go 'wow that would have made no sense as scum!" Ctes was asleep at the time and there is no chance in hell kirby as town, scum, indy, or a man from mars would think I would anything other than chastise there.

I thought it made sense to me. Survivors and scum teaming up for the final three has happened before in other games I've played, so if I tricked scum into believing I was third-party Survivor and would team up with them, that's a win for town.

Of course, my lies are hardly convincing, but I thought I'd at least try. I liked your reaction to it enough to drop the faade anyway. Really, as I said before, I was litmus testing for any third parties, as Hb suspected before he died. This was before you pointed out that Serial Killers must kill every night, and you being a Serial Killer waiting for scum to die out first was my crackpot theory at the time.

Kirby321 posted...

My questions aren't misleading. I'm trying to prove a point: Sbell's death doesn't make sense unless scum had a reason to not kill off Hb immediately.

And that reason can be something as simple as having claimed their actual Pokemon and you know that.

Kirby321 posted...

That reason being... because scum didn't want to be watched killing Hb or Chris. If I'm scum, I know there's no Watcher. I have a track record of messing up scans this game (especially with regard to Doc Ulti), so if Hb died and I didn't say who it was, I could've easily passed it off as "I thought they were gonna kill Chris so I decided to be big brain, and, well, I messed up. Again." Or I could've said "They got a Greninja".

As scum, I have no reason to avoid killing Hb that night. Multiple ways I could've faked it. And the benefit is that Hb's scans wouldn't have been revealed to Town and he wouldn't have affirmed Abacus's flavor. This gives me the option to indict Sbell as a Godfather instead, since nobody would have known that he did not move. Would be a stupid option, given that the argument against Sbell is far weaker than one against Scare, but an option nonetheless.

If you claimed your Pokemon you also have no reason to kill him that night either. Seriously, if I end up learning you are town today, I'm gonna be a little annoyed with these absolutes (Feel free to insert something about siths and absolutes yourself here). I just gave you what I find to be a decent reason from your perspective if you're scum as you once again go "I would have no reason" on me, presenting things like they are not.

Kirby321 posted...

nyone who tried to scan Lea would get roleblocked. If there was no Watcher in the setup, Lea would've been the ideal killer, not MZero.

MZero isn't immune to direct-targeted roles like Lea. Tracker would've spelled doom for MZero, but they wouldn't be able to do anything to Lea. Watcher is the opposite: it's the only role that could expose a killer Lea but fails to detect MZero.

Therefore, if you agree that MZero was the one who carried out the Pokmon-side kills, you have to agree that scum has to be aware of Watcher among the town roles. Again, this is impossible if I'm scum Watcher, but fortunately for Scum, they knew I was Watcher from N3 onward.

I don't have to agree to anything there, though you might be convincing me that Lea did the night six kill for what it's worth. There are more options than you're presenting. Such as you know, me not being completely locked in certain in something like MZero carrying out all odd night kills. IIRC you claimed watcher very late into day 3, so I don't N3 was that safe. Of course as that was a Star Wars night, this is a moot point.

Kirby321 posted...

I fake-claimed Survivor, not Serial Killer. Faking Serial Killer would've been suicide as any alignment, that much I'll agree with.

Yeah, I know that I just messed up typing. I've seen SK used for third party thoughts too much perhaps, but yeah.

I don't think there's much point in discussing that claim regardless, but "there are benefits for town if the gambit works" isn't a great point given the same is true for scum.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

'he outed me into not looking into you enough' is an odd phrase to use here.

What do you mean, the statement or the wording? Because I had to read my own sentence slowly there, I'll admit. Perhaps reading a post that like over again would be a decent idea but it's a stressful day in mafia.

Okay, one final test for my two kouhai who are making me ping pong back and forth. Please show me the post today from you that you think best demonstrates why I should think you are scum. The most flawed, most easily refuted with facts post.

ctesjbuvf posted...

What do you mean, the statement or the wording? Because I had to read my own sentence slowly there, I'll admit. Perhaps reading a post that like over again would be a decent idea but it's a stressful day in mafia.

the wording yeah as 'outing' is usually the term used for scum being exposed.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

the wording yeah as 'outing' is usually the term used for scum being exposed.

The more you know.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Please show me the post today from you that you think best demonstrates why I should think you are scum.

Just making sure I get what you're asking, you want me to find the post that best explains why I myself could be scum?

ctesjbuvf posted...

The more you know.

Just making sure I get what you're asking, you want me to find the post that best explains why I myself could be scum?

Yes.

...alright, I will try. That was unexpected.

ctesjbuvf posted...

If you claimed your Pokemon you also have no reason to kill him that night either. Seriously, if I end up learning you are town today, I'm gonna be a little annoyed with these absolutes (Feel free to insert something about siths and absolutes yourself here). I just gave you what I find to be a decent reason from your perspective if you're scum as you once again go "I would have no reason" on me, presenting things like they are not.

That... makes zero sense. Hb explicitly said he was gonna Flavor Cop scan Abacus that night.

If anything, I have more incentive to deny that scan ASAP. Why does my flavor or anyone else's flavor matter here? Everybody claimed their Pokmon except you and Chris by that point.

Hb was trying to verify that Abacus was not lying about his flavor. Leaving that ambiguous would've been a surefire way to get Abacus lynched. Not that it mattered in the end, but we started the day considering that Abacus being Wingull doesn't match other Dark Side characters. There was a chance Abacus could have survived that day because his flavor was verified.

---

I don't have anything else to say at this point because now it just feels like we're arguing pointlessly and neither side is going to budge. I reiterate that the explanations that state I am scum are extremely convoluted. I restate that:

1) I saw Ulti visit Chris on N2
2) Isquen redirected me on N4, for whatever reason
3) Doppelganger's niche is resolved by a Town Watcher

These are my main arguments. To resolve all of these facts would require multiple theories and explanations just to get Scum Watcher to fit into this narrative.

Versus, simply: double Godfather.

I rest my case.

Honestly, so little about the day has been about my or plays it's mostly about why the other roles make more sense as town. It's not like there are nothing in there that I can see would make sense, but a lot of it is in posts with incorrect or misleading statements defending Kirby.

If I must choose a single post, I think this one is probably the best, post #4.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Scare also fits scum's now known MO of this game of being cute as f*** with their interactions day one. I was fine with Mzero for awhile because of sheep/ben really leaning into odd choices for scum on scum on scum discussions. Ben and Sheep seemed more awkward around the subjects of Kirby day one. I pressed Ben a lot on Kirby and it gave me a good impression of Kirby at the time. Like he was scared to give him too much credit.

Scare on the other hand Sheep, while voting ben, was like 'YEAH I DON'T LIKE THAT SCARE SUSPICION BY CHRIS' which at the time I was like 'well okay scare can't be scum' but then I have since learned apparently they had fun doing stuff like that day one. Also I have seen things that take over for godfather in larger games before. It's rare, but I am thinking something like an apprentice of palps rising up to take part of his master's role. It's in the field of theory.

And it isn't that much. Scare doesn't have much to go by. I also can't say much about it, I barely know anything about him, there's little to learn from this game. He was town last game and killed the cop, I remember. I can't say why town Scan would do anything, your guess is probably better than mine.

There are not really any points about me actually seeming scum it's all presented as PoE and it made this task more difficult. Okay well, to be fair to Kirby he is making a lot of points against me, but they're mostly about my thoughts of him and I just think most of them are very flawed and not actually saying anything about me. I'm not sure at all on what you're hoping to get from this exercise, but here you go.