Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 383: Omicrony Capitalism

(+) Yeah! (+)

Forceful_Dragon posted...

Cancer is not contagious and transmitted by getting too close to other people.

She does know that right?

We can only be pretty sure she knows that.

But also her target audience probably includes a distressingly large amount of people who don't know that...

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Well fuck now I have brain cancer

Would you like more?

https://twitter.com/skepticalspice/status/1467055081300312068?s=21

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https://twitter.com/dannyodwyer/status/1467007992495153152?t=0OxUjgvRXNcb14QAyiw85Q&s=19

The sheer stupidity of the mainstream media is mind blowing

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Would you like more?

https://twitter.com/skepticalspice/status/1467055081300312068?s=21

I had to listen to this three times to make sure I heard what I thought I heard

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Wow, yeah that definitely took a turn.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Would you like more?

https://twitter.com/skepticalspice/status/1467055081300312068?s=21

where do i go to sue for whiplash

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Chris Cuomo update, not just suspended but now officially terminated from his job at CNN

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StealThisSheen posted...

I had to listen to this three times to make sure I heard what I thought I heard

Ditto. Thought I was crazy.

It's been several days now since I wandered in the last thread drunk and ruffled a bunch of feathers, however - I wish to apologize for my behavior, which was like that of an unrepentant assnut. I was belligerent and mean, terse, and just impossible to deal with. There's no excuse for that here. Nobody deserves it, and I don't have the right to act that way. I felt sorry about it for several days, which is why I'm writing this at all. No matter the content of discussion or who disagrees with whom, decency is always in order, and I didn't hold up my end of the bargain. I'm sorry to everyone.

out of retirement for one last fact check

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1467315740852338696

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I will make this brief, and when I say "make this brief", I mean I wrote with pen and paper for forty minutes venting thoughts about it first, then spent half an hour typing a revised and condensed version, and now I'm chopping it down to size in a more whimsical way. I just had to get all that out of my system so I could get it into fewer words.

My take on the Chappelle special, which I've since watched from start to finish, is that the majority of people offended by it lack a sufficient amount of empathy for Dave Chappelle as a person (as a comedian, as a black man, as someone who's experienced a person they know taking their own life) to even see his perspective when he's talking. I don't mean cheap empathy, either. Not the kind of empathy where you just think to yourself "I don't wish for anyone to suffer, therefore I have empathy for all people" I'm talking about real, deep, like, "this person is my tribe, we grew up and fought wars together, they've seen the warts" kind of empathy. (Nothing wrong with the cheap stuff, just saying I'm talking about something different.)

The man outright says in the special that his problem is with white people, and observation of the public reaction confirms this. Anecdotally by me watching several reaction videos, the number one predictor for whether someone is offended is whiteness, and still the topic of conversation has somehow not centered on white people! And that's like, the entire issue with reality that Dave is so tired of living in that he wrote a whole special dedicated to pointing it out is that white people have this tendency to not notice when we and our attitudes are at the center of everyone else's problems.

There's so many details that I want to point out but it's just too old and tired at this point for it to be worth it. But for my own sanity and for posterity and all that, I had to get something out.

turbopuns3 posted...

The man outright says in the special that his problem is with white people, and observation of the public reaction confirms this. Anecdotally by me watching several reaction videos, the number one predictor for whether someone is offended is whiteness, and still the topic of conversation has somehow not centered on white people! And that's like, the entire issue with reality that Dave is so tired of living in that he wrote a whole special dedicated to pointing it out is that white people have this tendency to not notice when we and our attitudes are at the center of everyone else's problems.

There's plenty of criticism of Chapelle from black queer people and defense from white people so I don't buy this. It's just a very reductive take on the issue.

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Funnily enough, I'm white and have loved basically every comedy skit that Chappelle skit did that focused on criticizing on white people

It's always interesting to see the cost sunk fallacy at work though - say some stupid stuff in a topic series while drunk, come back later both to defend that stupid opinion out of a desire to make both yourself and the celebrity you worship look better

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Interesting choice to double down

Are you drunk again

EDIT: Because I'm lost on how you think "Listen, guys I was an asshole, sorry. But also, you're only offended because you're white" is a good idea. Missing the point that broadly takes talent.

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I'm not gonna bother with this

turbopuns3 posted...

My take on the Chappelle special, which I've since watched from start to finish, is that the majority of people offended by it lack a sufficient amount of empathy for Dave Chappelle as a person (as a comedian, as a black man, as someone who's experienced a person they know taking their own life) to even see his perspective when he's talking.

holy fucking shit you have to absolutely be fucking kidding me with this absolute peak irony of a trash take

you've been told very fucking detailed explanations about this shit, personal god damn fucking experiences explaining the damage caused, and WE'RE the ones lacking empathy of the god damn clueless millionaire stomping into shit he doesn't understand

I've put in so much god damn work trying to hold your hand through this dialogue that you're evidently way too lazy to actually bother listening to over your selfish need to worship an old washed-up celebrity who doesn't give a single shit about the words he's using to the point he's straight-up just marketing off of his ignorance now.

LISTEN THE THE FUCKING VOICES OF PEOPLE UNDER FIRE. DO *NOT* TALK SHIT ABOUT EMPATHY OF ALL THINGS WITHOUT PUTTING THE BARE FUCKING MINIMUM INTO THE CONVERSATION. Do you not realize how god damn maddening it is to be repeatedly told I'm the one missing context here? There's nobody more god damn conscious of this dialogue going on, and I've listened to *plenty* of in-depth coverage from voices both cis and trans, black and white on these issues not to mention my own god damn experiences I've simply wasted in thinking you were a good faith actor.

At this point it god damn pisses me off to see such absolute wilful ignorance as yours waving away any criticism as just not getting it and now to this utterly ridiculous one-sided notion that we're the ones lacking empathy for being pissed off at straight-up anti-trans talking points belted out under the veil of "jokes". Trans voices are carefully crafting their nuanced criticisms while constantly giving the utmost leeway, accepting the fact that many people are just plain ignorant, and knowing we have to treat people with baby gloves to get it. To just fucking piss over the eggshells we gotta tiptoe around - with trans voices STILL getting the most vile hatred thrown at them by stans who don't bother to listen - is when I give up and tell you to go absolutely fuck yourself. Spend a god damn fucking hour in the realm of trans discourse and look at the shit we have to put up before you dare show off the absolute gall to complain we're the ones who don't get it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voiivxS3X3I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I07KNjNb1vE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiJQV378F5A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDxv9yMNZow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S42DJr95Dfw

Never again track your muddy-ass boots into a conversation over bigotry if you can't actually address the plentiful voices for well-examined and nuanced concern going on unless you wanna keep showing your ass over and over again.

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Again it's just so damn frustrating. Every trans person I know is so intently conscious of the ignorance of the cis people around us, we get that there's plenty of misconceptions, that people will make mistakes or slip-ups, and we put up with it all. We are forced to be teachers because of this, and while it gets overwhelming having to constantly explain yourself, once again every trans person I know lights the fuck up with joy when people actually listen because it's unfortunately so damn rare. This *could have* been the situation with Dave, or indeed with turbopuns if y'all didn't have your heads so firmly shoved up your own asses to accept the basic fact you don't know what you're talking about and your ignorance walked yourself into some shit. Instead you always have to play defence and double down and nobody's gonna put up with that.

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turbopuns3 posted...

My take on the Chappelle special, which I've since watched from start to finish, is that the majority of people offended by it lack a sufficient amount of empathy for Dave Chappelle as a person (as a comedian, as a black man, as someone who's experienced a person they know taking their own life) to even see his perspective when he's talking.

This is actually the line that sticks out to me the most. Celebrity worship is a hell of a drug and it really showcases how damaging it can be when entertainers espouse ignorance while hiding under the veneer of comedy. People won't listen to LGBT people when LGBT say that rhetoric is harmful, but they'll sure as hell listen to Dave Chappelle.

Incredibly ironic consider this bit from one of Chapelle's own skits:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo-ddYhXAZc

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turbopuns3 posted...

It's been several days now since I wandered in the last thread drunk and ruffled a bunch of feathers, however - I wish to apologize for my behavior, which was like that of an unrepentant assnut. I was belligerent and mean, terse, and just impossible to deal with. There's no excuse for that here. Nobody deserves it, and I don't have the right to act that way. I felt sorry about it for several days, which is why I'm writing this at all. No matter the content of discussion or who disagrees with whom, decency is always in order, and I didn't hold up my end of the bargain. I'm sorry to everyone.

don't worry about it, you were drunk so all of your posts were completely immune from criticism and everyone calling you out was being a total asshole (wang logic)

i hope you also made your follow-up post when drunk, though

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man even ulti face turns usually last longer than two posts

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Tom Bombadil posted...

man even ulti face turns usually last longer than two posts

Daaaaamn
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Dave Chappelle literally gave up The Chappelle Show and his career because he was so emotionally distraught about a white man laughing about a joke involving race.

It is absurd for him to come back and make jokes at the expense of trans people and then complain about getting canceled, and if it was really just white people that he was joking about, he would have kept the LGBT community out of his mouth.

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having not seen the special, i could give puns the benefit of the doubt and accept that maybe the main topic of the special as a whole was chappelle's issues with white people.

...that's no reason to just completely gloss over the transphobic "jokes" he made in the special, though.

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I guess turbopuns can be safely ignored in any intelligent conversation

Lol those two posts back to back like that

GuessMyUserName posted...

where do i go to sue for whiplash

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Considering how Chappelle goes to bat for Rowling and in doing so completely whitewashes how heinous TERFs are I'm going to call absolute bullshit on "Dave only has a problem with white people".

It's annoying because the man quite clearly is conscious of intersectionality... as it supports his community. He accurately tells the story of Sojourner Truth to call out white feminism... and then defends white feminists, calling them reasonable for opposing trans rights. He does the same thing again when he rightfully asks the question of gay people can be racist - to a resounding yes of course, but then doesn't at all consider the same question regarding homophobia and transphobia. Everything with Chappelle is all empathy for me but not for thee.

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turbopuns3 posted...

Dave is so tired of living in that he wrote a whole special dedicated to pointing it out is that white people have this tendency to not notice when we and our attitudes are at the center of everyone else's problems.

GuessMyUserName posted...

Everything with Chappelle is all empathy for me but not for thee.

That about does it.

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puns stop posting while drunk

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I think puns is wrong but raging at him is scientifically the best way to ensure he doubles down and never changes his opinion.

I was at one point fairly anti Trans before having a long conversation with someone who changed genders and I thought it was enlightening.

You never are going to be able to force someone to change their mind, you have to let them be willing.

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masterplum posted...

You never are going to be able to force someone to change their mind, you have to let them be willing.

if someone's going to be obstinately wrong for stupid reasons that's a them problem

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masterplum posted...

I think puns is wrong but raging at him is scientifically the best way to ensure he doubles down and never changes his opinion.

citation needed

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Hbthebattle posted...

if someone's going to be obstinately wrong for stupid reasons that's a them problem

Sure, but raging at them is counter productive. If you want to change their mind you cant rage at them, or your other option is just to ignore them which wont make them reinforce their beliefs because they feel attacked.

Im not saying you need to talk to everyone that has terrible opinions, but saying nothing is better than insulting if you dont want to foster extremism.

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masterplum posted...

I think puns is wrong but raging at him is scientifically the best way to ensure he doubles down and never changes his opinion.

Bitch I fucking tried last time. If he wants to come back again continuing to ignore and dismiss all criticism and heartfelt person experiences and then yeah I don't give a fuck anymore.

Read.

GuessMyUserName posted...

To just fucking piss over the eggshells we gotta tiptoe around - with trans voices STILL getting the most vile hatred thrown at them by stans who don't bother to listen - is when I give up and tell you to go absolutely fuck yourself.

^

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

citation needed

Theres a lot out there, but google quickly found me this

https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/why_is_it_so_hard_to_change_peoples_minds

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GuessMyUserName posted...

Bitch I fucking tried last time. If he wants to come back again continuing to ignore and dismiss all criticism and heartfelt person experiences and then yeah I don't give a fuck anymore.

Read.

What are you trying to achieve by yelling at him though? Making him leave and hate transgender people where you dont hear about it?


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Don't you fucking dare blame me for turbopuns choosing to ignore good faith criticism to hole back up into his shell.

turbopuns has already shown he doesn't give a fuck about listening to trans voices so yeah that's on him if he wants to be a bigot.

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GuessMyUserName posted...

Don't you fucking dare blame me for turbopuns choosing to ignore good faith criticism to hole back up into his shell.

Yeah I didnt say that

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"why do you yell at people who adamantly promote bigotry against you"

Tired of limp-dicked liberals putting the onus on minorities to stay calm in the face of bigotry when it's our lives at stake. Ignorance is allowed as an excuse for these people to say whatever the fuck inflammatory garbage they want but if we bite back we're the problem.

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masterplum posted...

Theres a lot out there, but google quickly found me this

https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/why_is_it_so_hard_to_change_peoples_minds

so this person is the ultimate authority on the field of persuasion?

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masterplum posted...

What are you trying to achieve by yelling at him though? Making him leave and hate transgender people where you dont hear about it?

If hes gonna be a bigot either way no matter what anyone explains to him, then yes

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

so this person is the ultimate authority on the field of persuasion?

I mean this is a pretty commonly talked about scientific phenomena. If you google why do people not change their minds youll find all sorts of research. I just picked one of the results that looked credible after scanning through it

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GuessMyUserName posted...

"why do you yell at people who adamantly promote bigotry against you"

tired of limp-dicked liberals putting the onus on minorities to stay calm in the face of bigotry when it's our lives at stake

exactly

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plum do you have any studies on the effects of telling people it's cool to keep acting like assholes forever without even the mildest consequences and if it encourages them to magically change their entire personality overnight for no reason instead of doubling down on what they get told they're in the clear to act like because criticism of them is the real problem?

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masterplum posted...

I mean this is a pretty commonly talked about scientific phenomena. If you google why do people not change their minds youll find all sorts of research. I just picked one of the results that looked credible after scanning through it

For one, no, you find a bunch of articles about confirmation bias(so much irony here).

Two, you have been reduced to google researcher.

dude ain't changing his mind either way at this point, I think. we tried, he doubled down. in short:

Jakyl25 posted...

If hes gonna be a bigot either way no matter what anyone explains to him, then yes

like, I kinda have a mental "event horizon" where I will still discuss and debate up to a point, but once it becomes apparent they are set, I kinda give up and move on. (see also: we had some pretty solid conversations the last twenty times we did this, but I also didn't respond to every single person) That's my MO more than fighting back, but I ain't been putting up with this kinda thing very long, relatively, and I'm not into tone policing people who have.

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

having not seen the special, i could give puns the benefit of the doubt and accept that maybe the main topic of the special as a whole was chappelle's issues with white people.

...that's no reason to just completely gloss over the transphobic "jokes" he made in the special, though.

I haven't even watched the special so idk but I've seen some people point out that it feels connected -- like Chappelle thinks being LGBT is just some white people nonsense, ignoring that LGBT people exist in basically every country and culture on the planet, and that LGBT people of color very specifically were at the forefront of LGBT rights activism in the US.

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masterplum posted...

Sure, but raging at them is counter productive. If you want to change their mind you cant rage at them, or your other option is just to ignore them which wont make them reinforce their beliefs because they feel attacked.

Im not saying you need to talk to everyone that has terrible opinions, but saying nothing is better than insulting if you dont want to foster extremism.

way to miss the point nearly as badly as pun jfc

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Plum is right that when theres scientific evidence to back up the idea that people will hold onto ostracized beliefs harder if people attack them for it.

But in this case, idk man likewho cares? Puns already doubled down on supporting transphobic ideas, so at worst he continues believing the thing he already does? Theres only so many times you can lead a horse to water before you just have tolet him dehydrate.

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You can make a horse drink if you're strong enough, but you do run the risk of drowning him

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Plum is right that when theres scientific evidence to back up the idea that people will hold onto ostracized beliefs harder if people attack them for it.

one article is meaningless anecdotal evidence.

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