Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 383: Omicrony Capitalism

(+) Yeah! (+)

who's ready for midterm season

god I need some progressive challengers entering the ring

Trump SotH incoming.

We all knew this was happening when the leverage from the infrastructure bill was gone.

RIP Democratic control, maybe for the last time.

Jfc Manchin

Torpedoing Bidens signature legislation to own thesomeones?

Suprak the Stud posted...

Jfc Manchin

Torpedoing Bidens signature legislation to own thesomeones?

To own more money.

On the flip side, Final Fantasy XIV is a great game we should all play together.

Im legit excited to start FFXIV in the fall. Heard nothing but great things and want the extra distraction.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

To own more money.

Yep that checks out mm hmm.

Suprak the Stud posted...

Jfc Manchin

Torpedoing Bidens signature legislation to own thesomeones?

I mean I'm not exactly letting Biden off the hook here either

Tony is right about the infrastructure bill. Progressives didn't want to pass it unless they could guarantee that BBB was also passed with the stuff they wanted in it. Biden and the Dem leadership convinced the progressive caucus that if they passed the infrastructure bill anyways, they'd find a solution for the other.

They didn't.

If he really is a hard no now that sucks, but they were previously refusing to accept his demand that the programs in the bill actually be 10 year programs (since they would not actually be fully paid for if extended). This change would actually make the bill better since the programs are otherwise very likely *not* going to be extended due to likely GOP control of at least one house of Congress when they expire. Manchin has been saying that this is how he wanted BBB structured for a while now; it shouldn't be coming as a surprise that it's not negotiable for him.

LordoftheMorons posted...

If he really is a hard no now that sucks, but they were previously refusing to accept his demand that the programs in the bill actually be 10 year programs (since they would not actually be fully paid for if extended). This change would actually make the bill better since the programs are otherwise very likely *not* going to be extended due to likely GOP control of at least one house of Congress when they expire. Manchin has been saying that this is how he wanted BBB structured for a while now; it shouldn't be coming as a surprise that it's not negotiable for him.

I don't understand how this could possibly be the case given that Manchin is also demanding that they lower the price tag of the bill. He wants them to spend less over a longer period of time? Seems incredibly bad faith.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I don't understand how this could possibly be the case given that Manchin is also demanding that they lower the price tag of the bill. He wants them to spend less over a longer period of time? Seems incredibly bad faith.

They would need to pick fewer programs to do (one obvious thing to cut would be SALT, which takes up like a third of the bills budget for some reason).

LordoftheMorons posted...

They would need to pick fewer programs to do (one obvious thing to cut would be SALT).

Which defeats the purpose of the bill.

I'm not going to quibble with you over what specific programs are good and bad but this entire back and forth of cutting shit from bills in order to pass them and then not passing them anyways is what leads to weaker legislation in a general sense.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I'm not going to quibble with you over what specific programs are good and bad but this entire back and forth of cutting shit from bills in order to pass them and then not passing them anyways is what leads to weaker legislation in a general sense.

This

Remember the current iteration of BBB cut out a ton of stuff from the original version of the bill at Manchin and Sinema's requests and then they're just not voting for it anyways.

Fuck them. And fuck me for thinking "Manchin votes on the important things when it counts, so I don't totally hate him" I guess.

Well I mean thats Manchins condition: hes taking doing all of the Dems wants simultaneously off the table. They thought they had the option of half assing them all (which for some of them like childcare might actually make things worse), but Manchin is saying no, that isnt an option. And because Dems have literally the bare minimum majority they dont have the luxury of telling him to go fuck himself (at least if they want to get anything).

But we can't afford to split it into individual bills because it is so hard to pass bills through the Senate in the first place. That's the whole point. You tie things together in a package deal to increase the chances more things get passed.

I don't agree that Dems don't have options for dealing with Manchin, but even if I did the problem is that leadership has consistently promised they had ways around him while displaying a lack of ability to deliver.

Yeah Biden could, tomorrow, be like "okay I am wiping out student debt and making weed legal lol" and suddenly the news cycle gets interesting for 2022.

But he wont. Thanks lotm

I understand that. My point is that the Dems dont have the majority they need to get everything they want. Manchins been saying that he might let them have some stuff, but they have to actually prioritize what they want the most.

LordoftheMorons posted...

I understand that. My point is that the Dems dont have the majority they need to get everything they want. Manchins been saying that he might let them have some stuff, but they have to actually prioritize what they want the most.

I think they should make their priority investigating Manchin for corruption and putting him in jail

I don't blame Biden for Manchin/Sinema. If they're hard 'No's then there's literally nothing anyone can do about it. Stuff like student debt is a primo what the fuck situation though.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Yeah Biden could, tomorrow, be like "okay I am wiping out student debt and making weed legal lol" and suddenly the news cycle gets interesting for 2022.

But he wont. Thanks lotm

student debt, sure.

But I don't think he can do anything about legalization. Isn't that bill still in Congress? He could basically tell the DEA to look the other way but that's very much not the same thing.

also hot take but, not downplaying the awfulness of all this, but BBB, student debt, legalization i don't think these actually move as much votes in 2022 as some are implying

like you can do all that but if gas prices are high and it's still a blowout

midterm voters are older and whiter and those aren't the issues that motivate them tbqhhh. hell, i'm unconvinced they move voters in general.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I think they should make their priority investigating Manchin for corruption and putting him in jail

that wouldn't help the senate situation any though

Dems would lose the midterms no matter how much policy they passed. We can and should still shit on them for not passing policy.

KamikazePotato posted...

I don't blame Biden for Manchin/Sinema. If they're hard 'No's then there's literally nothing anyone can do about it. Stuff like student debt is a primo what the fuck situation though.

^

I don't blame Biden for Manchin/Sinema but they underline his failures elsewhere.

KamikazePotato posted...

Dems would lose the midterms no matter how much policy they passed. We can and should still shit on them for not passing policy.

No argument here.

xp1337 posted...

that wouldn't help the senate situation any though

It does if you offer him the choice between going to jail and getting on board with the bill! If the worst case scenario is we still don't pass any bills but Manchin's in jail I'm okay with that.

xp1337 posted...

student debt, sure.

But I don't think he can do anything about legalization. Isn't that bill still in Congress? He could basically tell the DEA to look the other way but that's very much not the same thing.

also hot take but, not downplaying the awfulness of all this, but BBB, student debt, legalization i don't think these actually move as much votes in 2022 as some are implying

like you can do all that but if gas prices are high and it's still a blowout

midterm voters are older and whiter and those aren't the issues that motivate them tbqhhh. hell, i'm unconvinced they move voters in general.

he could make it a class 3 drug

xp1337 posted...

also hot take but, not downplaying the awfulness of all this, but BBB, student debt, legalization i don't think these actually move as much votes in 2022 as some are implying

like you can do all that but if gas prices are high and it's still a blowout

midterm voters are older and whiter and those aren't the issues that motivate them tbqhhh. hell, i'm unconvinced they move voters in general.

also "good policy doesn't help win elections" is not a good excuse to not pass good policies. If they truly don't affect each other then they're separate issues.

Manchin is the pivot vote in a 50/50 Senate. The Dems have no leverage. He gets exactly what he wants, or they get nothing.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

It does if you offer him the choice between going to jail and getting on board with the bill! If the worst case scenario is we still don't pass any bills but Manchin's in jail I'm okay with that.

Thats some Trumpian shit right there

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

It does if you offer him the choice between going to jail and getting on board with the bill! If the worst case scenario is we still don't pass any bills but Manchin's in jail I'm okay with that.

Okay, ignoring the obvious corruption and illegality of that and just evaluating it as a "would it work?" idea.

...Why wouldn't Manchin just switch parties to the Republicans - immediately handing control to McConnell (as opposed to the status quo where at least Biden can try to futilely fight the court packing the Republicans cemented the past 7 years) - and probably win any such case against him (or settle) because rich white people don't go to jail anyway?

Like that tactic only makes sense as satisfying a desire for revenge against Manchin's obstruction (and I'd still expect it to backfire and blow up spectacularly at that). It's entirely counterproductive to actually accomplishing policy goals.

KamikazePotato posted...

Dems would lose the midterms no matter how much policy they passed. We can and should still shit on them for not passing policy.

100% to everything said here!

dammit guys i explicitly added in the "not downplaying the awfulness" bit explicitly to note I wasn't saying the fact that I think good policy is disconnected from electoral results means "No big deal"

It was a direct response to the idea that passing anything like that would alter 2022's landscape any.

Voting Rights is the only one that might, and I qualify might because I don't know if it's not already too late for it to be implemented for the 2022 elections.

xp1337 posted...

...Why wouldn't Manchin just switch parties to the Republicans - immediately handing control to McConnell (as opposed to the status quo where at least Biden can try to futilely fight the court packing the Republicans cemented the past 7 years) - and probably win any such case against him (or settle) because rich white people don't go to jail anyway?

Just taking the case to court is going to cost him money which is probably enough of a motivating factor on its own. I also think it would probably be very easy to prove corruption charges if they wanted to, given that it's an open secret.

I also don't think Republicans go to bat for him in court if he defects. Why bother when you can easily fill WV's seat with someone more conservative in the next election that doesn't have a corruption scandal? Either way, if the plan is just to wait around twiddling thumbs until the next Senate election anyways what's the harm?

xp1337 posted...

dammit guys i explicitly added in the "not downplaying the awfulness" bit explicitly to note I wasn't saying the fact that I think good policy is disconnected from electoral results means "No big deal"

It was a direct response to the idea that passing anything like that would alter 2022's landscape any.

Voting Rights is the only one that might, and I qualify might because I don't know if it's not already too late for it to be implemented for the 2022 elections.

Oh sorry, I didnt mean the imply you were arguing for the opposite. I just mean, in a vacuum, thats where Im at too. Dems lose no matter how much good they do because people are terrible, but we should drag them for not accomplishing as much good as they can with the limited time and power they have.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I also don't think Republicans go to bat for him in court if he defects. Why bother when you can easily fill WV's seat with someone more conservative in the next election that doesn't have a corruption scandal? Either way, if the plan is just to wait around twiddling thumbs until the next Senate election anyways what's the harm?

They don't have to go to bat for him, he just needs to give his vote to/caucus with McConnell as Majority Leader and Senate control is tipped back to them. You think the GOP will go, "Whoa, wait a minute, we're not going to accept control of the US Senate if it comes from a vote tainted by corruption, perish the thought!" do you lmfao?

Then they can have him replaced in a primary or something (but I think the "owned the libs!!!!!" factor would be strong enough to ensure he holds the seat anyway. Manchin is popular in WV.

As for "what's the harm?" ...the judiciary?

Democrats and the left already lost the Supreme Court and federal judiciary for a generation at least because McConnell stole two years of seats from Obama by refusing to confirm anyone, then had Trump fill those vacancies up so that Biden entered office with the fewest vacancies in over 30 years. We're watching what SCOTUS is doing to Roe, not to even get into lower courts, and your solution is to just let McConnell run that play again, but now for 3 years of Biden's term?

The situation sucks but going after Manchin like that is an own-goal of absurd proportions from a "get/protect progressive policy" standpoint. It perhaps satisfies the anger of progressives that he's tanking the agenda but that's all. Long-term, mid-term, hell even short-term it just makes things worse for progressive policy.

xp1337 posted...

They don't have to go to bat for him, he just needs to give his vote to/caucus with McConnell as Majority Leader and Senate control is tipped back to them. You think the GOP will go, "Whoa, wait a minute, we're not going to accept control of the US Senate if it comes from a vote tainted by corruption, perish the thought!" do you lmfao?

No but if they're just gonna win control of the Senate in 2022 anyways who fucking cares

We keep using the worst case scenarios as an excuse to do literally nothing

And again, I do not think Manchin actually defects. I think that's a huge bluff and people are giving him entirely too much credit. Specifically, you would not give him the CHANCE to defect. You threaten a speedy investigation into an immediate arrest, he loses his seat, and you force a special election and hand it to McConnell. Basically "if you're going to blow us up anyways we are taking you down with us." Obviously that is not a favorable scenario for Manchin.

https://twitter.com/SenWarren/status/1472681405293293570

Warren has a breakthrough case of COVID. Says she's only experiencing mild symptoms thankfully.

SALT is generally a tax break for the upper class that targets specifically for the most part two very democratic states of New York and California.

If SALT takes up the majority if the budget, you should wonder how serious the bill really is and why someone from West Virginia would vote for it even without it hampering a commodity the state regularly deals in.

Just to ask, didn't Trump base his whole campaign on instituting "Law and Order" to suppress riots? If so then he basically fell into the same trap as Hillary Clinton by painting those who opposed him as evil scumbags.

Only ask because I'm amazed how sore some people still are over all the riots from last year, to the point they think the Capitol insurrection was no big deal. And I don't get why these people could even remotely act like their country is some backwater third-world nation when that's like the OPPOSITE of the reality.

https://twitter.com/ryangrim/status/1473011079634690053?s=20

See now this is wild. There's a couple options for what is happening here.

1. Manchin lied to Biden about his commitment and went back on it (what Jayapal claims)
2. Manchin is lying to Jayapal about NOT committing to protect his reputation
3. Manchin really didn't commit, but Biden lied to Jayapal to get her to pass the infrastructure bill
4. Jayapal is just trying to save face for not blocking infrastructure when she had the chance

Whatever way you slice it this just a complete mess of incompetence on display

https://twitter.com/jbouie/status/1472915565786419214?s=21

what a great, empathetic guy

He just thinks everybody would use the money like he would

Jakyl25 posted...

https://twitter.com/jbouie/status/1472915565786419214?s=21

what a great, empathetic guy

https://twitter.com/Bacon4Spinner/status/1472917020236820493?s=20

lmao fucking got him

Jakyl25 posted...

https://twitter.com/jbouie/status/1472915565786419214?s=21

what a great, empathetic guy

jesus fucking christ

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

https://twitter.com/ryangrim/status/1473011079634690053?s=20

See now this is wild. There's a couple options for what is happening here.

1. Manchin lied to Biden about his commitment and went back on it (what Jayapal claims)
2. Manchin is lying to Jayapal about NOT committing to protect his reputation
3. Manchin really didn't commit, but Biden lied to Jayapal to get her to pass the infrastructure bill
4. Jayapal is just trying to save face for not blocking infrastructure when she had the chance

Whatever way you slice it this just a complete mess of incompetence on display

Unless someone can articulate what Manchin committed to, none of this is surprising or a breach of a commitment. He committed to negotiate. He did. They couldn't reach a deal because they were too far apart.

This is like contracting to have a painting made and agreeing to buy it if you like it.

Jakyl25 posted...

https://twitter.com/jbouie/status/1472915565786419214?s=21

what a great, empathetic guy

jfc okay maybe we can put that investigation idea back on the table because the projection here is just blinding

Pretty much agree with all of this thread:

https://twitter.com/ne0liberal/status/1472939998295080961?s=21

People in resetera said Biden should threaten to imprison Manchins daughter if he doesn't agree to BBB.

Corrik7 posted...

People in resetera said Biden should threaten to imprison Manchins daughter if he doesn't agree to BBB.

that's right