Board 8 > MCU General 3: Loki Loki Panic

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Mac Arrowny posted...

Did they never talk about the possibility of creating alternate realities with Endgame's time travel? I feel like they did, but I could be wrong.

They did.

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Huh, you would think the Ancient One would know about the TVA considering how many different timelines she's looked into.

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CoolCly posted...

im probably gonna be a big pile of negativity in this topic

i've thought this first 5 episode of Loki were a giant pile of mediocrity at best. i'm almost afraid to watch the finale because i dont want to end this series thinking it sucked. I genuinely love Loki as a character and think he's one of the best characters in the MCU, and I love the MCU and everyone in it to begin with, so i dont think i'm biased against it or anything. it's just been a giant mishandling of the character. to think this series is below par hurts.

blahhh

Nah, I totally agree. Part of it for me is that I am very susceptible to hype, and this was easily the show I was most excited for. At the end of the day, I don't feel like it really did anything though. The first couple of episodes just live off of Mobius and Loki dialogue and the episodes after that just live off of Loki and Sylvie interactions. None of those things really drive the plot or even the world forward; on the contrary, even in seeing his life play it out, it annoys me that Loki is played far more like a post-Ragnarok Loki as opposed to a post-Avengers Loki. The entire point of this series is: Loki's back, there's a female version of him now, and the multiverse is happening. Even the Kang reveal is disappointing, because it makes the Time Keeper scenes even more irrelevant. What's even the point then? Is Revonna still going to be upset even though Kang essentially is THE Time Keeper?

In that sense, I far prefer WandaVision and Falcon and WS. WandaVision at least started off interesting, and then kinda petered out at the end, and it gave the spotlight to characters who hadn't seen much of it yet. Falcon and WS wasn't too special, but I wasn't expecting it to be either, and I like the Evil Avengers setup more than this multiverse wack that Loki built up to. Like at this point I'm just wondering why they released it now when Doctor Strange will only come out next year, and I doubt Shang-Chi will be affected by it. Maaaaybe Eternals given that one line of "we've watched but now we must act" or something like that, but considering you're making a movie where you essentially have to introduce a trillion characters I can't imagine heavily involving the multiverse on top of that as well.

I guess there's Spider-Man but I'm almost expecting that to be more of a red herring like WandaVision Quick-Silver than anything else.


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there is overwhelming evidence at this point that the Spider-Man movie involves multiverse stuff. Even without getting into any sort of leaks, Dr. Strange is a main character in it. Obviously Petes going to get involved with some shit.
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I liked this a lot. Thought it did a lot to pick apart why Loki, supposed smarted man in most rooms he's in, would so consistently shoot himself in the foot. Dude knew on some level that no amount of supervillain bullshit would ever make him happy.

Also the idea that the only person Loki could possibly fall in love with was Loki made me chuckle. And no amount of her repeatedly saying "I'm not you" would take

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That was a great episode and I do not read comics. Just information gleamed from posts and videos on youtube. While I am not a fan of cliffhangers cause I am impatient I cannot wait to delve more into this story. This was the best of the Disney+ shows and stuck every landing.

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That was good shit. Felt the Kang/Loki/Sylvie conversation had great tension to it, and I love the effect this might have on the mcu going forward

I also quite like that we're almost expected to know at this point that Majors was cast as Kang for Ant-Man 3, so when we see him he doesn't need to explicitly tell us his name for us to get who he is. Although I guess mentioning that he is a "conqueror" will do that too.

Oh: why did they just happen to cross "the threshold" while they were in there? What was going on? I assume it wasn't just convenient timing?

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Oh and imo that was the best finale of the three Disney shows, though I enjoyed FATWS' quite a bit

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FATWS has the best scene, though.

Emo Zimo Dancin'.

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Oh: why did they just happen to cross "the threshold" while they were in there? What was going on? I assume it wasn't just convenient timing?

I wonder if it connects to Ravonna going through that portal? Its the scene right before this scene and we know Miss Minutes gave her some sort of information which theoretically was on behalf of Immortus/Kang... I dunno.
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Man I thought this show was super fun but the finale is not good. It really exemplifies the issue I have with some of the writing in these MCU shows.

Almost the entire episode is literally just an exposition dump on the multiverse to set up an excuse to bring it back. But like...it wasn't dramatic because we KNEW they were going to do that. And so instead of being a satisfying finale it just feels like an advertisement for itself.

And shoutouts to Jonathan Majors for carrying the entire episode on his back, jesus.

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Loved the exposition

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We never got an official name from him did we? Like casual audiences are just gonna know him as He Who Remains ya?

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XIII_rocks posted...

Oh: why did they just happen to cross "the threshold" while they were in there? What was going on? I assume it wasn't just convenient timing?

My guess is Kang had only planned and pruned his timeline up until the Lokis confront him and he makes his pitch, and he hadn't planned anything out beyond that. So it was just a matter of time after they got there that the timeline would start branching again.

Or maybe it has something to do with Loki and Syvlie creating strong nexus events, like they did on Lamentis. They never really explained why that happened. Kang decided on these two as his replacement for a reason... probably. Edit: or yeah maybe it has to do with Ravonna.

Anyway, I found the finale frustrating. Like sure season finales often have cliffhangers, but they generally also have some degree of resolution too. I guess confronting the true Timekeeper was resolution, but it was delivered in a way that didn't really feel like it to me? Because even that is just an introduction to something coming later.

It feels more like a mid-season finale, and I'm guessing by the end of Season 2, it'll feel more like one 12-episode season than two distinct 6-episode seasons. And ultimately that's fine, I just wish I had realized it was going to feel that way before going in so I could adjust my expectations accordingly.

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Should be noted that closed captioning never refers to him as Kang. It's always "He Who Remains". Considering all the multiverse stuff he should probably be considered a distinct character in his own right and it might not be proper to specifically call him Kang to contrast with his upcoming parallel forms that are likely to be completely different.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Man I thought this show was super fun but the finale is not good. It really exemplifies the issue I have with some of the writing in these MCU shows.

Almost the entire episode is literally just an exposition dump on the multiverse to set up an excuse to bring it back. But like...it wasn't dramatic because we KNEW they were going to do that. And so instead of being a satisfying finale it just feels like an advertisement for itself.

And shoutouts to Jonathan Majors for carrying the entire episode on his back, jesus.

I think I remember that Marvel said they weren't planning on releasing as much information about upcoming projects precisely for this reason.

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Saw a review that said it would have been better had the villain been another Loki variant, and honestly that's true imo. Like just for this self-contained series, that's the better call. But for the larger MCU, it's got a lot of promise. I wouldn't argue with it being "an advertisement for itself", I just thought it was an entertaining one.

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It also just occurred to me that final shot of the splintered timeline is basically the setup that allows What If...? to happen next and for it to all be "canon". I just wonder now if any of the scenarios from that show will end up being revisited in future projects. I wasn't really too interested in it because it didn't seem like it was a "real" part of the MCU, but now who really knows.

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Oh yeah, I was talking about that with a friend earlier! What If's "variant" characters may well appear in later movies/shows now. I was already looking forward to it, but now it's got potential to be more than just its own thing.

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XIII_rocks posted...

Saw a review that said it would have been better had the villain been another Loki variant, and honestly that's true imo. Like just for this self-contained series, that's the better call. But for the larger MCU, it's got a lot of promise. I wouldn't argue with it being "an advertisement for itself", I just thought it was an entertaining one.

Kang's portrayal was so great that I really just can't agree, plus I think they did well making this Kang feel detached from the variants to come (as he himself wanted to distance himself), particularly by killing him off so he's a closed character with this series, but also with the fact that he wasn't even named as Kang yet which I think works really well.

but hey I also can't really imagine how a Mastermind Loki ending would even play out

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Do we know if What If? is going to be episodic or serialized?
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I really liked that finale. Would have loved a post-credits but what can ya do.

Honestly, Ravonna is the character I am most interested by at this point. Which is kind of surprising.

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Mac Arrowny posted...

Do we know if What If? is going to be episodic or serialized?

We don't but I have a feeling that Dr Strange is going to be watching all of these events like a sort of Rod Serling type character to give it a through line.

Or maybe a Watcher or something but there's not much narrative with that.

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Loki was great. I do somewhat agree with some (but not nearly all!) criticisms though.

I agree that this feels less like Avengers Loki and more like Ragnarok Loki. To the show's credit I think it did a passable attempt at justifying this by having Loki watch his greatest hits while being interrogated, but I actually think Avengers Loki lasting longer would have made the show better. Sylvie driving the "good" angle and Loki actually seeming like he actually might be plotting for most of the series would make a lot of stuff have a lot more bite I think.

Also Loki and Sylvie just weren't great as a ship. You could argue this is just Loki falling for her because he's a narcissist and it's all one sided and that's why it's not great but I'm not sure how much I believe it. I don't think the presentation quite lines up with that.

Now as for the criticisms I really don't agree with

There is a lot of talk in here about it being an ad and blah blah Kang and I just didn't get that at all? The last episode was great front to back and I loved the ending with the statue there-- so hyped for next season and where it goes. I will say I avoided teasers and such on this one like the plague because I wanted to be surprised but yeah? I mean are we all REALLY that much of comic nerds that it being Kang is even relevant here lol.

And despite me preferring to see a more dark Loki here I definitely don't agree that he's generic protag #882 or that Thor would have played things out identically. Don't really care to defend it here, but aside from the point that people not trusting him being fairly vital to how it unfolded, he just felt consistent with Ragnarok Loki throughout to me.

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GuessMyUserName posted...

Kang's portrayal was so great that I really just can't agree

Oh he absolutely nailed it, for sure, but I still think the way that show went a Loki variant would have allowed for something more narratively satisfying.

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XIII_rocks posted...

Oh he absolutely nailed it, for sure, but I still think the way that show went a Loki variant would have allowed for something more narratively satisfying.

I think that would have been incredibly boring and underwhelming.

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I have a pretty substantial collection of "What If?" comics. Wonder if their values will go up.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Almost the entire episode is literally just an exposition dump on the multiverse to set up an excuse to bring it back.

i watched dan murrell's review of the episode and he said it was like the architect scene in the matrix reloaded. that's EXACTLY how i felt.

it's not completely the same because he who remains (ok, i won't be presumptuous and call him kang - according to wikipedia he's more like immortus than kang anyway? whatever) is a way more entertaining character than the architect. but it is a similar "a new character appears completely out of the blue and explains things to the protagonist (really the audience) for a ton of time" kind of thing. lazy writing.

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UltimaterializerX posted...

Some minor spoilers here, so Ill post the Reddit thread instead of an image: https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/okac5l/updated_mcu_upcoming_release_schedule/

Why did I think Hawkeye was August?

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Lopen posted...

I mean are we all REALLY that much of comic nerds that it being Kang is even relevant here lol.

kang is a pretty major character in the comics who's been around since the silver age. you don't have to be a "comic nerd" to know who he is. he's a lot bigger than, say, agatha harkness.

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

i watched dan murrell's review of the episode and he said it was like the architect scene in the matrix reloaded. that's EXACTLY how i felt.

it's not completely the same because he who remains (ok, i won't be presumptuous and call him kang - according to wikipedia he's more like immortus than kang anyway? whatever) is a way more entertaining character than the architect. but it is a similar "a new character appears completely out of the blue and explains things to the protagonist (really the audience) for a ton of time" kind of thing. lazy writing.

I dont think its fair to say hes completely out of the blue. Hes the exact person the Lokis were searching for, they just didnt know his exact identity while they were searching.

To compare it to a good thing people like instead of a bad Matrix sequel, hes like the Wizard of Oz. Hes the man behind the TVAs curtain if you consider a giant time dog (or whatever Alliath is exactly) to be a curtain.

Maybe whatever the issues with the Matrix scene are have more to do with that specific movie being kind of bad than it does with any general dialogue or story structure that your YouTube guy is using to draw his comparison.( I dont know, I havent seen that movie since probably within a couple weeks of the day it released)
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Too bad it wasn't Palpatine at the end of time there and this is how we tie Star Wars into the Disneyverse.


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It was just the throne room scene from RotJ except this time Luke killed Palps and tossed Vader down the shaft

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RPGlord95 posted...

Too bad it wasn't Palpatine at the end of time there and this is how we tie Star Wars into the Disneyverse.

Good point! It should have been Palpatine!

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RPGlord95 posted...

It was just the throne room scene from RotJ except this time Luke killed Palps and tossed Vader down the shaft

Its really not, for one important reason. Palpatine never intended for Luke to actually have a choice, Kang genuinely did.

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I always imagined What If would be like a glimpse into a few alt scenarios, each of their own contained episode

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

kang is a pretty major character in the comics who's been around since the silver age. you don't have to be a "comic nerd" to know who he is. he's a lot bigger than, say, agatha harkness.

I mean I'm sure you all recognize the name but I'm not buying everyone here who is like "omg it got spoiled!!" had any real expectation of why Kang is a big deal other than "I know that guy!!"

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

i watched dan murrell's review of the episode and he said it was like the architect scene in the matrix reloaded. that's EXACTLY how i felt.

it's not completely the same because he who remains (ok, i won't be presumptuous and call him kang - according to wikipedia he's more like immortus than kang anyway? whatever) is a way more entertaining character than the architect. but it is a similar "a new character appears completely out of the blue and explains things to the protagonist (really the audience) for a ton of time" kind of thing. lazy writing.

This is a ridiculous comparison. The reveal isn't even close to 'out of the blue'. From the get go, Loki's trying to figure out exactly what the TVA is. We know someone is behind the curtain from episode one. We just think it's the Time Keepers, then when they're revealed to be fake it turns into who's actually behind the creation of the TVA. Which frankly is far better writing than it just being the Time Keepers.

Also you're really referencing a Dan Murrell review? I haven't watched his reviews, but I've watched a lot of Movie Fights and he's by far the biggest buzz kill on Screen Junkies and it makes you wonder if he even enjoys watching movies.

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BetrayedTangy posted...

I haven't watched his reviews, but I've watched a lot of Movie Fights and he's by far the biggest buzz kill on Screen Junkies and it makes you wonder if he even enjoys watching movies.

This checks out with Lasa liking him!

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redrocket posted...

This checks out with Lasa liking him!

Lmao true though.

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BetrayedTangy posted...

This is a ridiculous comparison. The reveal isn't even close to 'out of the blue'. From the get go, Loki's trying to figure out exactly what the TVA is. We know someone is behind the curtain from episode one. We just think it's the Time Keepers, then when they're revealed to be fake it turns into who's actually behind the creation of the TVA. Which frankly is far better writing than it just being the Time Keepers.

i don't see how it's a ridiculous comparison. ok, the "he who remains doesn't appear of the blue, unlike the architect" aspect is different, but they're both the exact same kind of "a character dumps a ton of exposition on the protagonist (actually the audience)" situations. again, this episode totally reminded me of the architect scene when i was watching it.

Also you're really referencing a Dan Murrell review? I haven't watched his reviews, but I've watched a lot of Movie Fights and he's by far the biggest buzz kill on Screen Junkies and it makes you wonder if he even enjoys watching movies.

he's not my favorite youtube movie critic or anything and i don't watch him regularly but he's ok. he always tries his best backing up his opinions with arguments, which is more than i can say for a ton of other youtube personalities reviewing movies.

and he loves tons of movies and from what i've seen on screen junkies/fandom, he's not even the most critical person on there. joe starr is probably more harsh.

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I'd say the buildup makes all the difference in the payoff though.

I don't remember exactly how Matrix played out but I don't remember spending ~half the movies wondering 'Who is behind all of this?'

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ergo

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IfGodCouldDie posted...

I think I remember that Marvel said they weren't planning on releasing as much information about upcoming projects precisely for this reason.

This would definitely help but even not knowing that What If? and Doctor Strange and Ant-Man (ugh) and Spider-Man are coming along doesn't solve the problem with the standalone show on its own. It's still pretty obvious to figure out that's what they're doing as soon as the TVA introduces the timeline and it becomes clear that they're the bad guys. Which is why it's a bummer so much of it was devoted to explaining events instead of focusing on the cast, which I think has been the best part of the show.

To its credit, Loki does end up in an unexpected scenario at the end, stuck in an alternate timeline with no allies or gf, but the character beats here just didn't hit for me. Sylvie pretty unceremoniously does the thing she's been telling us she'd do for 5 episodes (which is bad now according to the exposition), Loki is convinced by a half hour of exposition and gets in her way only to get dumpstered in a pretty bland fight scene. The side characters are all on setting up S2 duty which is fine, it's just that the main cast is also doing that so it feels bad. Even as a dramatic season 1 cliffhanger, it's all very contrived. I agree with the idea that this feels like half of a 12-part series and not a complete season, so it'll probably feel a lot better later.

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UltimaterializerX posted...

Some minor spoilers here, so Ill post the Reddit thread instead of an image: https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/okac5l/updated_mcu_upcoming_release_schedule/

So what exactly is updated about this? And also what is the source? Is this official or just some rando making guesses?

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

i don't see how it's a ridiculous comparison. ok, the "he who remains doesn't appear of the blue, unlike the architect" aspect is different, but they're both the exact same kind of "a character dumps a ton of exposition on the protagonist (actually the audience)" situations. again, this episode totally reminded me of the architect scene when i was watching it.

It's kinda an LMSlike comparison. Parts of it work but at the same time it's completely missing the point.

Like yes they are similar in the sense they drop a lot of exposition. The differences are key. The first as everyone has already explained, there is a very important distinction between the entire focus of the plot being "find who is behind all this" having a reveal like this vs a thing where he sorta just comes out of nowhere. He is indeed a lot more like Oz

But the second, the one that people aren't touching on as much, is that He Who Remains has an in-story reason to want to drop that exposition on them-- he has to convince them to go along with his plan. This makes the exposition feel a lot more natural-- almost like normal dialogue to people who aren't out to pick nits about the show. The Architect in contrast doesn't attempt to convince Neo of anything-- he just randomly drops a bunch of information on him in a bad WWE heel promo for the next Pay-Per-View.

But yeah the key here is that information delivered through character dialogue isn't always a bad thing. The nuance of why they're saying this, does it make sense to say this now, is it being delivered in a way that feels more like conversation than a monologue-- these things are all important and why comparing He Who Remains to the Architect is ridiculous and just really reaching.

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