Board 8 > MCU General 3: Loki Loki Panic

(+) Yeah! (+)

To add to what Lopen said, I think what helps make that dialogue so good is Kang's entire motive as well as how he delves into his own flaws. The entire sequence between Kang and Sylvie was great, because I understand both of their mentalities here and it feels like some of the most realistic character interaction we've seen in the MCU up to this point.

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I thought that entire scene was fantastic and well acted. If I had any issue to pick, it would be that Sylvie wasn't even willing to entertain the idea that he might be telling the truth. I get this derives from her trust issues, but like Loki said, the consequences for making the wrong choice are cataclysmic. At least think about it!

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Lopen posted...

The Architect in contrast doesn't attempt to convince Neo of anything-- he just randomly drops a bunch of information on him in a bad WWE heel promo for the next Pay-Per-View.

eh, i don't agree with this at all. i side with the analysis that the architect is telling neo all of that information because he WANTS him to pick the door that leads to trinity (i.e. the "wrong" option).

i think YOU'RE missing the point of the architect scene if you think it's nothing more than "here's a bunch of info i'm telling you for no reason ok bye."

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Leonhart4 posted...

I thought that entire scene was fantastic and well acted. If I had any issue to pick, it would be that Sylvie wasn't even willing to entertain the idea that he might be telling the truth. I get this derives from her trust issues, but like Loki said, the consequences for making the wrong choice are cataclysmic. At least think about it!

See I don't think Sylvie even cares about the consequences. In much the same way that Loki has always been motivated by jealousy and spite, Sylvie is motivated entirely by revenge. She is out to destroy the people and organization that ruined her life, and she really doesn't care about anything else. If all of reality burns as a consequence of her getting her revenge, she doesn't care.

Now granted, the way she kind of slumps to the floor after stabbing He Who Remains indicates that she did in fact realize the consequences of her actions in the immediate aftermath, but up until she killed him I really don't believe she cared about anything else other than doing the stabbing.

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I understand that it was consistent with her character up to that point. I just thought it could have been an opportunity for some character development (like showing she actually has come to trust Loki a little), even if she ultimately makes the same choice in the end.

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Hard for Sylvie to care about the fate of the universe when she hasn't been allowed to exist in it most her life

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

i think YOU'RE missing the point of the architect scene if you think it's nothing more than "here's a bunch of info i'm telling you for no reason ok bye."

See I always took it as he's gloating to Neo because humanity has no chance. This is a glorified excuse for giving the audience information. This is how I always thought it felt. Again, not at all like Loki in that regard which has a very obvious in story explanation that doesn't require any "analysis" to determine.

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GuessMyUserName posted...

Hard for Sylvie to care about the fate of the universe when she hasn't been allowed to exist in it most her life

Sure, but she's being given the chance to exist in it now. I don't think she would ultimately want to be the head of the TVA after all she went through. I just wanted her to have a moment of reflection or a show of trust in Loki rather than treating her choice as a no-brainer. That's all.

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Leonhart4 posted...

Sure, but she's being given the chance to exist in it now. I don't think she would ultimately want to be the head of the TVA after all she went through. I just wanted her to have a moment of reflection or a show of trust in Loki rather than treating her choice as a no-brainer. That's all.

I think that she just sent him back to the TVA instead of killing him, does show she does care and has some trust in Loki. If she truly believed it was all a long con for him to gain ultimate power, she probably would've just killed him.

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Leonhart4 posted...

I thought that entire scene was fantastic and well acted.

It's VERY well-acted, that doesn't mean it's well-written, though!

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mnkboy907 posted...

I think that she just sent him back to the TVA instead of killing him, does show she does care and has some trust in Loki. If she truly believed it was all a long con for him to gain ultimate power, she probably would've just killed him.

True, this is a good point.

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Not a single line from Wanda is interesting.

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So I think my issue here is that this should have been Loki Season 2.

Loki season 1 could have been him hopping around space, causing trouble in all sorts of MCU-familiar situations (Winter Soldier, Ultron, Thor 2, GotG, etc) and being chased by the TVA all the while. That season could have ended with Mobius extending a hand to Loki and bringing him into the TVA in a way that's like "dude, you're causing messes for us, but we need you because we can't stop you. And there is someone actually hunting us, so we need your help" and having some angle of Loki going with it (or maybe just being captured!) to get him there.

That would have made this season the one where, after Avengers Loki went through all that trouble, realizes the inevitability of him dying in the end, and makes the transition of villain Loki to anti-hero Loki a lot more organic and believable. THEN, all the truths we got through two seasons of this show die when Sylvie kills Immortus. Then that gives us a Loki who deserves where he got to, and a more compelling reason to be into the events of this last episode.

As it stands, this show still is sitting better than the previous two to me, but I feel like I'd have wanted 3 more seasons of Agent Carter than these three shows so far.

Really excited for What If...? though!

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Hmm maybe that could have been an episode instead of a whole series. I don't really think the villain Loki from the first episode could carry a whole season as the main character. His character development is a little rushed with what we got but I think that's a necessary evil.

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I mean, Loki was a villain in 3 MCU movies.

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And he tried to be a villain for at least half of Ragnarok.
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No, he didn't. He didn't do anything villainous, he just hung out with The Grandmaster and took advantage of the high life offered to him.

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Loki was mostly just staying in good with the Grandmaster so he didn't end up in the same situation as Thor and Hulk.

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I imagine they felt comfortable rushing his development here because wed already seen his future incarnation develop in that direction a bit by the time he died.

Its kind of hard to judge how abruptly being shown all this hidden truth of the universe and shit could reasonably change a person, but I thought it was believable enough that hed shift pretty quickly.
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MoogleKupo141 posted...

I imagine they felt comfortable rushing his development here because wed already seen his future incarnation develop in that direction a bit by the time he died.

Its kind of hard to judge how abruptly being shown all this hidden truth of the universe and shit could reasonably change a person, but I thought it was believable enough that hed shift pretty quickly.

Yeah, I thought him changing based on watching the sacred timeline version of himself shift was plausible. Im sure lots of people would have dramatic changes if they watched how their entire life would play out.

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On the other hand, watching himself die heroically could just as easily have made him decide to double down on being the villain.

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But it didn't because he's inherently a good but misunderstood person. Which is I think the point of the show.

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Just got out of Black Widow with the wife and kids, wife and son say it is their favorite Marvel film to date. Wife's previously favorite was Deadpool 1.(i know it isn't MCU but I let her have it because it is still a Marvel based movie.) Son's previous favorite was Endgame. Daughter is passed out in the car so she can't answer. I definitely put this movie on par with Winter Soldier. In my opinion it's biggest flaw is release date, this movie 100% should have come out before Infinity War.

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Been avoiding the topic a bit until I watched Black Widow and I just watched it.

Loki finale was good. It was just a giant exposition dump but I'm excited for the future of the MCU. There's a lot of potential with the multiverse and I'm very curious to see where they take it.

Black Widow was also good. I liked how it wasn't a traditional Marvel movie and it felt a lot closer to a spy thriller. Yelena and Red Guardian were great and I'm also looking forward to seeing where they end up with the Contessa stuff.

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HanOfTheNekos posted...

As it stands, this show still is sitting better than the previous two to me, but I feel like I'd have wanted 3 more seasons of Agent Carter than these three shows so far.

I really liked Agent Carter but lol no.

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RikkuAlmighty posted...

But it didn't because he's inherently a good but misunderstood person.

Ah yes, Loki, the guy who committed a full-scale invasion of New York.

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i'm just telling you the point of the show

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HanOfTheNekos posted...

Ah yes, Loki, the guy who committed a full-scale invasion of New York.

TBF he's under the mind stone in the scepter's influence in The Avengers and as we see on the helicarrier when the team argues it seems to bring out people's negative emotions.

Murphiroth posted...

TBF he's under the mind stone in the scepter's influence in The Avengers and as we see on the helicarrier when the team argues it seems to bring out people's negative emotions.

I was going to add somethign about "don't Mind Stone me" because I thought most people would be analytical enough to recognize that Loki was, indeed, a villain, and that it took the course of four movies for him to transition to anti-hero status, which was a good arc.

We got a single scene for him to get heroic in this show, which is fine I guess because we as an audience remember Loki being there last we saw him, and saw him go through that arc already. There was just opportunity to do something with Loki pre-face turn and they decided not to take it.

RikkuAlmighty posted...

i'm just telling you the point of the show

And I'm just telling you that people who commit 15 9/11's are not "good but misunderstood"

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Didn't say he wasn't a villain!

I don't think "good but misunderstood" is a good phrase to describe Loki at all.

It's more that he's got a lot of potential that can go in either direction, and he's very easily guided in either direction by emotions. He's very much a villain originally because he was guided by jealousy and greed and so on, and the point is he could have easily been steered in the opposite direction. He's not inherently good or evil, he's open to both and just responds well to the right nudge.

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StealThisSheen posted...

I don't think "good but misunderstood" is a good phrase to describe Loki at all.

It's more that he's got a lot of potential that can go in either direction, and he's very easily guided in either direction by emotions. He's very much a villain originally because he was guided by jealousy and greed and so on, and the point is he could have easily been steered in the opposite direction. He's not inherently good or evil, he's open to both and just responds well to the right nudge.

Yeah, I'll concede this point.

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You were my brother Anakin! I loved you!

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HanOfTheNekos posted...

And I'm just telling you that people who commit 15 9/11's are not "good but misunderstood"

That's a bit of an exaggeration. We have in universe confirmation that the Battle of New York resulted in 74 deaths and around $80 billion in damages. 9/11 resulted in 2,977 deaths and around $40 billion in damages (or at least that's what the insurance companies paid out).

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I mean in general nothing about Loki feels really earned. They could have scaled back the season and turned the first four episodes into six but they obviously wanted to get in that final character for the sake of future projects.

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ChichiriMuyo posted...

That's a bit of an exaggeration. We have in universe confirmation that the Battle of New York resulted in 74 deaths and around $80 billion in damages. 9/11 resulted in 2,977 deaths and around $40 billion in damages (or at least that's what the insurance companies paid out).

I mean, thats only because the Avengers were there to stop him.

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Not to put too fine a point on it but if you don't fuck with hamfisted redemption arcs for mass murdering psychos, the superhero genre is not gonna be a fun time lol

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Only 74 deaths at the Battle of New York? That seems incredibly low. How many supposedly died at the end of Age of Ultron when the island fell?

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cyko posted...

How many supposedly died at the end of Age of Ultron when the island fell?

177.

And yeah, those numbers are super low even in a not all that realistic movie universe. I think the New York casualties were originally mentioned to be much higher before Civil War retconned it (the irony being these numbers were used to show how dangerous and irresponsible the Avengers were when they're really fantastically good for how much destruction was caused.)

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The NY numbers were lowered when they retconned Loki into having acted under the Mind Stone's influence.

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Wait, when the hell did that happen? Even the Loki series doesn't indicate that being a thing afaik.

Edit: Specifically Loki being under Mind Stone influence.
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https://i.imgur.com/D6w4XWk.png
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Superhero movies always handwave collateral damage. Only 5,000 apparently died in Man of Steel and lol that.

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I mean, that's why the final shot lingered on the changed statue.

And I'm pretty sure the citadel was supposed to represent kintsugi.


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lol "body positivity cop"

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UltimaterializerX posted...

Body Positivity Cop

???

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