Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 373: T Party Republicans

(+) Yeah! (+)

xp you left out some more horrid details

https://twitter.com/KatiePhang/status/1395793262397562893

[...] Bouchard said that he eventually married the girl, who, according to the Star-Tribune, was 15 at the time of the marriage.

and the article goes deeper

The couple divorced three years later. He said that his ex-wife had died by suicide. At the time, he said, she had problems in another relationship.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Another detail you didn't mention: the girl later died by suicide at age 20

I was originally going to post it but wasn't sure of the circumstances so omitted it. I found his description of it pretty cold-blooded but without video that's just a text impression.

But, yes, the "extended" version is that he married the girl a year later when she was 15/he was 19 (WaPo notes that with a pregnancy involved, Florida law at the time permitted it with approval of a judge), divorced three years later, and then yeah, sadly she died by suicide two years after.

Edit: GMUN ninja'd me with that, but yeah, see above. It's a sensitive subject with me so I dropped it from the original post more because I don't know the girl's situation and thus didn't feel comfortable including it.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Seeing Bernie's speech the other day, seeing the KHive talk shit about him on Twitter, and then seeing Joe consistently walk back his promises like we feared it's just like...hey, maybe this shit is hopeless? At what point do we just let the GOP takeover to instigate genuine change as opposed to frogs slowly boiling in a pot?

Never?

If you give the GOP power, they will take it, grab it, and hold on to it. They will rig the system to the point where progressives can't win seats. They've already got a stranglehold on the judiciary for what will likely be the rest of our natural lives.

Unfortunately we have to work with weak democrats like Manchin and Sinema if we want to get ANYTHING done. We aren't the GOP, where we tell them to 'jump' and they say 'how high'. We have to play along with them, because we have to be a big tent party to succeed because that's how the GOP designed it. Our system is a complete failure. I'm in favor of changing the system, but I just don't think it's possible. Too many Americans don't care about anything but their own bottom line.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Why are you both blaming the voters for politicians failing them?

Can I blame voters in my area who voted Republican over a moderate Dem cause ads said she may secretly be not a moderate?
Cause those are the voters that encourage dems to shun progressives.

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How can the voters demand more from politicians when they are LITERALLY like "HERES YOUR TWO CHOICES YOU MORONS! FUCK YOU!" and your options are to not vote in which case PEOPLE LIKE FUCKING TRUMP take over or vote for the other asshole in which case shit all changes because they also realized they can just put out absolutely ZERO EFFORT and live a CUSHY LIFE just bobbing along as the opposing party win or lose. Why would the party of change change things? Systems working great for them!

Maniac64 posted...

Can I blame voters in my area who voted Republican over a moderate Dem cause ads said she may secretly be not a moderate?
Cause those are the voters that encourage dems to shun progressives.

As long as you are talking solely about winning elections, sure. But even then people tend to underrate how bad Dems are at election strategy

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I don't know if any election strategy matters when people like MTG can get elected.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/21/politics/marjorie-taylor-greene-mask-mandates-holocaust/index.html

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https://twitter.com/zekejmiller/status/1395887790412423172?s=21

Oh uh, that wraps that up then.

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They're saying now that the budget will cover those things, it just doesn't have specifics, so it seems like Biden's once again walking back that walk back, but we won't know how much.

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Biden is just giving up on stopping them from cancelling the 300$ a week unemployment benefits in June? So the Republican governors are just gonna pocket the even more money Biden is about to send out?

StealThisSheen posted...

They're saying now that the budget will cover those things, it just doesn't have specifics, so it seems like Biden's once again walking back that walk back, but we won't know how much.

Isn't all the budget stuff speculative in that "a WH source says that it will/won't have..."?

PerfectChaosZ posted...

Biden is just giving up on stopping them from cancelling the 300$ a week unemployment benefits in June? So the Republican governors are just gonna pocket the even more money Biden is about to send out?

Again, AFAIK he can't stop them. "states rights." I'm pretty sure it's the same kind of deal with GOP-controlled states refusing to expand Medicaid when it's literally just keeping money/benefits/care going to their constituents.

Pretty sure when previous administrations have tried to "force" states to comply with federal aid in various ways they've all been struck down by the courts.

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PerfectChaosZ posted...

How can the voters demand more from politicians when they are LITERALLY like "HERES YOUR TWO CHOICES YOU MORONS! FUCK YOU!"

One, they dont give us two choices. We picked the choice. The Democrats did not demand more, they demanded a return to the Obama years that exactly led us to Trump, because they were so traumatized by Trump. People have to stop giving in to fear or familiarity if what they are familiar with is dogshit politicians who do nothing if we will ever change.

Two, organize groups that can be meaningful bases of votes, donations, protestors, or strikers that can support or oppose to a level that puts pressure on pols instead or idolizing them, stop defending dems and view them as your enemies who you are just using against even worse enemies, treat Biden in power the same way youd treat Trump and be willing to draw a line and NOT support him if he doesnt meet certain standards, like keeping promises. If a guy who is supporting two genocides on behalf of our allies is publicly polling with a positive result just because people were traumatized by Trump, thats never going to pressure him to change. Ive said it a million times, but FDR didnt run as a radical and only public pressure to do things even more radical than the new deal actually resulted in the new deal. Instead, people are just saying meh of course but accepting it because it could have been something worse.

fuming posted...

they demanded a return to the Obama years that exactly led us to Trump

This seems a bit dishonest, since what effectively lead to Trump was racists getting set in a fervor and feeling unashamed to come out and vote for somebody like them. By saying "Obama lead to Trump," you're basically saying "Shouldn't have voted for a black man, America."

Agree with the rest.

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I didn't even ****ing vote for Biden.

Also, in our latest edition of lol Tulsi Gabbard, she has nothing to say about things like Israel/Palestine, but she has plenty of time to call for Lightfoot's resignation because of "anti-white racism."

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StealThisSheen posted...

This seems a bit dishonest, since what effectively lead to Trump was racists getting set in a fervor and feeling unashamed to come out and vote for somebody like them. By saying "Obama lead to Trump," you're basically saying "Shouldn't have voted for a black man, America."

Agree with the rest.

This is just not true. Yes, racists were emboldened and enraged by Obamas Presidency, but (one thing that) led to Trump was people meeting all the psychos halfway and normalizing them.

Another was that, outside of the ACA and likeDADT/fat marriage, Obama was a pretty moderate President, so by the time 2016 rolled around, all the people inspired by his message had finally gotten jaded enough to rebel against the status quo and cling to a jellybrained racist like Trump.

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StealThisSheen posted...

They're saying now that the budget will cover those things, it just doesn't have specifics, so it seems like Biden's once again walking back that walk back, but we won't know how much.

Maybe that's why we should wait until the actual budget reveal.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Another was that, outside of the ACA and likeDADT/fat marriage, Obama was a pretty moderate President, so by the time 2016 rolled around, all the people inspired by his message had finally gotten jaded enough to rebel against the status quo and cling to a jellybrained racist like Trump.

I don't really believe this. I don't believe that anybody actually felt "Obama was too moderate, I better vote Trump!" with how/what Trump campaigned on.

If they did, it's because they were actually drawn in by what Trump campaigned on, which was hatred and bigotry.

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TheRock1525 posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

They're saying now that the budget will cover those things, it just doesn't have specifics, so it seems like Biden's once again walking back that walk back, but we won't know how much.

Maybe that's why we should wait until the actual budget reveal.

Real "here's a list of all the cancelled shows" energy over this one.
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I dont know what you guys are talking about; heres Biden fulfilling his campaign pledge to attack and dethrone God!

https://twitter.com/ne0liberal/status/1395798259914919939?s=21

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would have been a better GoT ending than we got

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xp1337 posted...

Isn't all the budget stuff speculative in that "a WH source says that it will/won't have..."?

Again, AFAIK he can't stop them. "states rights." I'm pretty sure it's the same kind of deal with GOP-controlled states refusing to expand Medicaid when it's literally just keeping money/benefits/care going to their constituents.

Pretty sure when previous administrations have tried to "force" states to comply with federal aid in various ways they've all been struck down by the courts.

Yeah by all means dunk on Biden but he wanted to do an actual good thing and shitty Republicans wouldnt let him isnt really his fault. Theres no other grounds her for him to do anything.

The good news is theres like six other things in the past week to dunk on him if you want so just go that route!

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Why do people who hate Biden always make him look and seem like 100x more awesome than he actually is?

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StealThisSheen posted...

"Obama was too moderate, I better vote Trump!" with how/what Trump campaigned on.

Thats not the direct connection, imo

Its two divergent but related groups based on wanting something different than Neolibs and Neocons:

Wow, Obamas going to change the world -> Obama was too moderate -> I dont trust Dems

Wow, Obamas gonna change the world -> Wait hes just a regular politician -> Fuck it, Trumps gonna bring down the system

Group A wanted Obama to shake up the system and bring about good change.

Group B wanted Obama to shake up the system and for politics to just be different.


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StealThisSheen posted...

This seems a bit dishonest, since what effectively lead to Trump was racists getting set in a fervor and feeling unashamed to come out and vote for somebody like them. By saying "Obama lead to Trump," you're basically saying "Shouldn't have voted for a black man, America."

Agree with the rest.

this is just how I see it, I recognize many disagree, but Obama terrifying republicans is why Trump won the primaries, but not why he won the general. He won the general because eight years of a young black president promising hope and change failed to deliver on that promise and democratic voters chose the status quo candidate at a time folks on the left were feeling deflated or disengaged compared to virulent scared people on the right who were fired up. At the same time, the GOP ran an anti establishment populist campaign that harnessed real energy. I think Bernie would have been far better to oppose this. I know others dont agree, but my point was definitely not that we shouldnt have picked a black guy or anything like that.

What led to Trump was the country still being horribly misogynistic and going "oh the highly qualified woman with a ton of experience to hold the highest office in the land? Nah, give us the racist reality star, plz."

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Are people misogynist?

Yes.

Was Hillary Clinton a bad person who ran a bad campaign based on bad Dem strategy?

Also yes.

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If the country was ever going to be convinced that "qualified" and "experience" mattered the most, Hillary would have won over Obama in the primaries. Those are things that absolutely do not matter when it comes to politics, it isn't like a normal job. You want someone who has your ideology and interests at heart, not someone who has just been in government positions a lot. Especially if you generally feel the government is bad or does not have your interests at heart! Maybe someone saying they want to drain the swamp would appeal to that person!

fuming posted...

If the country was ever going to be convinced that "qualified" and "experience" mattered the most, Hillary would have won over Obama in the primaries.

I'm pretty sure her qualifications looked a lot better in 2016 than 2008.

But you also know that only one person has ever been elected president without holding elected office or military leadership experience, and it's neither Obama or HRC. It only stopped mattering once enough of the population became stupid enough to let it stop mattering.
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Also in 2016 Trump was actually viewed as more moderate than Hillary by the electorate

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kevwaffles posted...

I'm pretty sure her qualifications looked a lot better in 2016 than 2008.

But you also know that only one person has ever been elected president without holding elected office or military leadership experience, and it's neither Obama or HRC. It only stopped mattering once enough of the population became stupid enough to let it stop mattering.

why does holding elected office of military leadership experience make you better prepared to be the president? being the president is absolutely nothing like being in the military or a senator or congressperson. It is probably most similar to being governor, but still very different and that doesn't make you "more qualified", it makes you more experienced in that kind of role. The qualifications for who you want to be president are always gonna be "who shares my positions/will be best for me or what I care about". politics is about ideology, not merit or skills. this is why I definitely agree with whoever said almost anyone here is probably upper middle class PMC types, it makes absolutely no sense to care about experience of qualifications and the obsession with that screams "people who have bought into a meritocracy because they have themselves succeeded within the system". The reason most people prior have been military or previously elected officials is more that the parties had a lot of control over who was in the primaries/it was used to promote from within to reward, etc. and quite frankly Hillary Clinton was revealed in wikileaks to have encouraged Donald Trump to run as a strategy, so it isn't like the GOP was the one behind his campaign. It was very much an aberration but also a final result of the tea party takeover from the neocons.

LordoftheMorons posted...

Also in 2016 Trump was actually viewed as more moderate than Hillary by the electorate

if this is true, this is only more admission that what Tony and I have been saying is the case.

The Presidency is not, in fact, an easy job that any moron can do!

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LordoftheMorons posted...

The Presidency is not, in fact, an easy job that any moron can do!

and so the relevant qualification is "not a fucking moron" and all that that entails

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LordoftheMorons posted...

The Presidency is not, in fact, an easy job that any moron can do!

so are you saying that donald trump and george w bush and ronald reagan etc are not morons or that people vote based on ideology/who they think will represent them or culture war stuff rather than who is "smart"?

fuming posted...

so are you saying that donald trump and george w bush and ronald reagan etc are not morons or that people vote based on ideology/who they think will represent them or culture war stuff rather than who is "smart"?

Donald Trump is a total moron. I don't think Bush or Reagan were, but my point isn't that it's impossible to be elected to the Presidency without being smart. My point was that being President is hard, and doing a good job requires more than just being "right" on some set of issues.

It's completely bizarre that people recognize that intelligence and experience are valuable for basically any normal job, but then turn around and pretend they're completely irrelevant to governance.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

It's completely bizarre that people recognize that intelligence and experience are valuable for basically any normal job, but then turn around and pretend they're completely irrelevant to governance.

The thing is, Trump supporters genuinely think Donald Trump is an actual genius.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Donald Trump is a total moron. I don't think Bush or Reagan were, but my point isn't that it's impossible to be elected to the Presidency without being smart. My point was that being President is hard, and doing a good job requires more than just being "right" on some set of issues.

It's completely bizarre that people recognize that intelligence and experience are valuable for basically any normal job, but then turn around and pretend they're completely irrelevant to governance.

If you don't think Ronald Reagan was a moron then you are simply not familiar enough with him

gonna trickle down any day now

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Donald Trump is a total moron. I don't think Bush or Reagan were, but my point isn't that it's impossible to be elected to the Presidency without being smart. My point was that being President is hard, and doing a good job requires more than just being "right" on some set of issues.

There are things that matter more than being morally right, but being "smart" is not MORE important than being morally right, because a smart person who isn't moral is not going to give a shit about being morally right, just about their own self interest/what is easier to do because the "smart" thing to do is often the easiest choice. It is the choice to serve power and avoid conflict, which is necessary to change ANYTHING.

fuming posted...

There are things that matter more than being morally right, but being "smart" is not MORE important than being morally right, because a smart person who isn't moral is not going to give a shit about being morally right, just about their own self interest/what is easier to do because the "smart" thing to do is often the easiest choice. It is the choice to serve power and avoid conflict, which is necessary to change ANYTHING.

I mean, there are a lot of people in this country

I think it just might be possible to find someone who is both good and smart

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LordoftheMorons posted...

I mean, there are a lot of people in this country

I think it just might be possible to find someone who is both good and smart

For the record, neither of these things require experience.


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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

For the record, neither of these things require experience.

Experience also helps someone do the job well, and we can find people with all three

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LordoftheMorons posted...

I mean, there are a lot of people in this country

I think it just might be possible to find someone who is both good and smart

when has this ever happened in the entire history of the country, though? I don't recall a single good man ever becoming president.

Biden is in fact a President who is good, smart, and experienced

He's far from perfect but by far the biggest stumbling block in Politics right now isn't him, it's the Senate

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KamikazePotato posted...

Biden is in fact a President who is good, smart, and experienced

He's far from perfect but by far the biggest stumbling block in Politics right now isn't him, it's the Senate

what do you base being a good person off of? or smart for that matter?

KamikazePotato posted...

Biden is in fact a President who is good, smart, and experienced

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Yes we get it Tony, Biden has problems and Sanders would have been better

Biden is still doing an overall good job by any reasonable metric

Also this is infuriating
https://www.theroot.com/black-man-files-federal-lawsuit-after-illinois-police-o-1846942281

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I mean experienced for sure and Id even give him smart or at least used to be very intelligent but is now clearly on the back end of his life and isnt as sharp as he used to be.

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what in the fuck is your reasonable metric??