Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 343: Guilty Spark

(+) Yeah! (+)

Yesmar_ posted...

I mean, I'm completely sympathetic to the cause and when I first heard the phrase "Defund the police" I assumed it meant to remove funds entirely. That is how the word "defund" is used in common parlance, regardless of what the dictionary definition might be.

I understand that. Though I also understand the phrase is born of the righteous anger of people being murdered by police, and facing no consequences and doing NOTHING to prevent it from happening again.

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A lot of people thought MAGA was a great slogan to keep using four years after having the president who ran on that slogan just because they like how it sounds.

Slogans are meant to attract people who, even if not outright stupid, don't actually want to put in any critical thinking if the slogan doesn't catch them in and of itself.
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I thought MAGA was stupid because at what point in history was our country better than in 2015?

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Dancedreamer posted...

I thought MAGA was stupid because at what point in history was our country better than in 2015?

See you're already putting in more thought than 75% of the country.
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Kinglicious posted...

As did Biden. But there's lefties who shit on him for that.

But really uh, if you're saying defund the police but mean fund the police more you've completely fucked up.

Lefties also shit on Bernie for this. I think you missed my point, which is that no politicians actually ran on or supported defunding. Still, as you show, the perception that left-leaning politicians support it still persists.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Lefties also shit on Bernie for this. I think you missed my point, which is that no politicians actually ran on or supported defunding. Still, as you show, the perception that left-leaning politicians support it still persists.

That's because the DNC is incompetent. The idea that they stole this election is ridiculous because of how incompetent they are.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

yes, you are describing what the margin of error is and what it means when interpreting data. congratulations, you've attained more knowledge of statistics than most of the US population.

What I'm saying is that 4% is an outrageously high margin of error for an aggregation of dozens of polls. We're not talking about one single poll, but 538's aggregation of them. This level of polling error renders them virtually useless as a predictive tool, since one can apparently get better results by just predicting D+1 every election without looking at any of the data.

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Dancedreamer posted...

That's because the DNC is incompetent. The idea that they stole this election is ridiculous because of how incompetent they are.

Weird how one party can just speak ridiculous ideas into existence and win support for them, isn't it?

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Dancedreamer posted...

I thought MAGA was stupid because at what point in history was our country better than in 2015?

The 1950s for white people, from a certain point of view anyway. Obviously some things weren't as good back then, but everybody else on Earth had it worse. If all you care about is your group being on top, then going back to that sounds great.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

MAGA was never about lets go back to being racist. It was purely America isnt respected and our economy is garbage, lets fix this. You can go back to what works economically while having modern social standards.

Our economy worked great when we were taxing the super rich upwards of 90%, yet for some reason, "Making America Great Again" opted against using what worked economically, and instead focused on attacking minority groups who've gained more rights since the 1950s.

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UltimaterializerX posted...

America isnt respected and our economy is garbage, lets fix this.

Surely now 4 years later we are more respected and better off economically
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Weird how one party can just speak ridiculous ideas into existence and win support for them, isn't it?

The parties are not equal.

Also Trump won by keeping all his shitty policy at easy to understand surface rhetoric.

Defund the police, at a surface level, is not popular.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sciencealert.com/us-records-new-high-of-over-200-000-covid-19-cases-in-24-hours/amp

200,000 cases in 24 hours is fucking terrifying. And I'm seeing a lot less people than ever around my area wearing masks.

I'm sure most of this is from the election, but it sure feels like not wearing masks is the "stop the steal" folks way to protest the election results.

Fucking pathetic.

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"If you're explaining, you're losing" is a simple but sadly accurate rule of politics.

Unfortunately it's a lot harder to try and distill what are often complex, nuanced policy positions into bite-sized slogans.

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but can we at least explain how marginal tax rates work
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The thing I find frustrating about this whole "defund the police" thing is that it's basically a meme - not a meme in the 'it's not meant to be taken seriously' sense, because it is, but it's a meme in the sense that it's just sort of a slogan that bubbled up out of the rising anger at police brutality, it's not like it's some kind of specific goal that everyone signed off on, sent to the democratic party, and then they ran on it, or something. The simple fact of the matter is that fox news is still #1 in controlling the political narratives in this country, and if they want to make it seem like "defund the police" is all the democrats want to talk about, they will do so, and it doesn't really matter whether or not it's a serious policy proposal. And that's enough to get the establishment democrats all uppity at "the left" even though we have basically nothing to do with the fact that the democratic party isn't in control of their own narrative. Blame fox news, you dumbasses, not us.

Jakyl25 posted...

https://twitter.com/bostonpatrolmen/status/1326526877532622848?s=21

Do you...do you think they watched the movie?

In fairness to whatever organization that is... Leo was at least the good guy. So it's not like they are celebrating Matt Damon's character.

But it is still a movie about police corruption being so rampant that it's difficult to know who the good guys are.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Lefties also shit on Bernie for this. I think you missed my point, which is that no politicians actually ran on or supported defunding. Still, as you show, the perception that left-leaning politicians support it still persists.

Definitely missed that yeah. But of course politicians won't publicly run on it when it's unpopular. People will look to their supporters though and see that as the true message because unless you explicitly, repeatedly say otherwise, and have the media on your side to showcase that, then that's what people will think. Happened to Trump, happened to Bernie.

The issue here I'd attribute is more to the activists who genuinely do mean that and some will go a step further and outright say abolish. Including in this topic series.

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GA recount will be done by the 20th per SoS.

Once that's nailed down PA doesn't matter anymore, and they're not doing a recount in WI.

So at the very least we'll be able to brush that bullshit aside by then.

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I'm a bit confused why they're kicking up more dust with Michigan than they are with Wisconsin. Wisconsin is at least a 20k difference. Michigan is 150k. The entire state would need to be cheating.

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I thought they weren't ponying up the money for either either way?

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Suprak the Stud posted...

I'm a bit confused why they're kicking up more dust with Michigan than they are with Wisconsin. Wisconsin is at least a 20k difference. Michigan is 150k. The entire state would need to be cheating.

The point isn't to actually win any of this, it's to sow doubt in the public's trust of the democratic electoral process

which is you know way more terrifying

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There is a strong chance this backfires and strong trump supporters stop voting

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StartTheMachine posted...

The point isn't to actually win any of this, it's to sow doubt in the public's trust of the democratic electoral process

which is you know way more terrifying

But he's almost exclusively sowing distrust amongst Republicans, so....I just don't see any way this does anything but damage the strength of the Republican voter base.

I guess we'll have to wait and see after the runoffs, but how many Democrats are seeing this and saying fuck voting versus how many Republicans?

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There is absolutely zero chance that democrats lose faith over this. Every non far right news source is calling trump out

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Leafeon13N posted...

The parties are not equal.

Right so...you admit that the Democratic Party is weak or incompetent or both and should do better?

xp1337 posted...

"If you're explaining, you're losing" is a simple but sadly accurate rule of politics.

Unfortunately it's a lot harder to try and distill what are often complex, nuanced policy positions into bite-sized slogans.

But they have to explain anyways when they're forced to come out against it and it's just as confusing. Thats the lose-lose.

Kinglicious posted...

Definitely missed that yeah. But of course politicians won't publicly run on it when it's unpopular. People will look to their supporters though and see that as the true message because unless you explicitly, repeatedly say otherwise, and have the media on your side to showcase that, then that's what people will think. Happened to Trump, happened to Bernie.

Three points here I guess
1) I doubt the actual policy is as unpopular as the slogan but I dont want to rehash the argument
2) Successful politicians shouldn't just follow public opinion, but shape it
3) Democrats (and Republicans) don't always run on the most popular policy regardless and it's worth calling attention to that. Obvious example - weed would be legal if they did.

Kinglicious posted...

The issue here I'd attribute is more to the activists who genuinely do mean that and some will go a step further and outright say abolish. Including in this topic series.

Finally, I'd say this is a result of defund already being the compromise to abolish. The language and strategy has already been toned down once and now activists refuse to budge. I think that's fair. This is like how people argue over the specifics of public option vs single payer healthcare or what specific climate plan they prefer except with less infighting. For once, the left does not eat itself over minor disagreements, because they all agree cops are the enemy, and liberals find it scary and confusing.

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masterplum posted...

There is a strong chance this backfires and strong trump supporters stop voting

So if Republican voters start thinking that elections are rigged against them and voting is pointless, do they all just give up and let the Democrats rule unopposed? Or do some of them instead attempt to stop the Democrats outside traditional democratic processes?
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Paratroopa1 posted...

The simple fact of the matter is that fox news is still #1 in controlling the political narratives in this country, and if they want to make it seem like "defund the police" is all the democrats want to talk about, they will do so, and it doesn't really matter whether or not it's a serious policy proposal. And that's enough to get the establishment democrats all uppity at "the left" even though we have basically nothing to do with the fact that the democratic party isn't in control of their own narrative. Blame fox news, you dumbasses, not us.

No, Sinclair Broadcasting is a bigger problem than Fox News.

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Dancedreamer posted...

No, Sinclair Broadcasting is a bigger problem than Fox News.

That may well be accurate actually, Sinclair's reach is monstrous and pernicious

The democratic party just really does not have an apparatus like that, no matter how much the right wing wants CNN and MSNBC to be it

Dancedreamer posted...

No, Sinclair Broadcasting is a bigger problem than Fox News.

This is extremely dangerous to our democracy

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Xeybozn posted...

So if Republican voters start thinking that elections are rigged against them and voting is pointless, do they all just give up and let the Democrats rule unopposed? Or do some of them instead attempt to stop the Democrats outside traditional democratic processes?

I fully expect that, if Ossof and Warnock kill it at the runoffs, Trump will start being abandoned by the party en masse and we'll see a total 180 from their messaging.

Might be too late for Trump die hard voters, though.

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I'm actually starting to let myself believe the ridiculous hope that the dems are gonna kill it in the senate runoff - feels like there's gonna be more energy for the dems, even though there are plenty of gop voters who aren't disillusioned with the election

Even though Ossoff may be blue dog as hell (dunno about Warnock but it's Georgia so I assume similar things) it would still be a pretty big deal to pick these two seats up

I don't have much hope for the runoff. A lot of moderates and swing voters will vote R just because they want to 'hold Biden in check'. (They wouldn't feel the same, though, if Trump won the election)

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why do I type anything when I can just post AOC tweets

https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1326620351502094337?s=19

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she's got a good point, it's just unfortunate that this is what we ended up with when the right is so adept at shaping political discourse from the top down, and the left is stuck reacting to it.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Finally, I'd say this is a result of defund already being the compromise to abolish. The language and strategy has already been toned down once and now activists refuse to budge. I think that's fair. This is like how people argue over the specifics of public option vs single payer healthcare or what specific climate plan they prefer except with less infighting. For once, the left does not eat itself over minor disagreements, because they all agree cops are the enemy, and liberals find it scary and confusing.

I agree with this. I'd love to say abolition is the goal, but I'm well aware that that's definitely not feasible. The slow reforms haven't been working, we need more drastic change. Defund means defund.

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AOC is both wrong and right here. Yes, politicians have to own the message. But sometimes owning that message is going to cost votes like it did here. The slogan itself was toxic.

I don't think anyone is saying politicians should control the messaging either. Activists are capable of doing harm to the public discourse, it is just factual.

Leafeon13N posted...

AOC is both wrong and right here. Yes, politicians have to own the message. But sometimes owning that message is going to cost votes like it did here. The slogan itself was toxic.

I don't think anyone is saying politicians should control the messaging either. Activists are capable of doing harm to the public discourse, it is just factual.

Red please understand no one actually gives a shit about the stupid slogan. The specific wording is not the issue, the issue is that the slogan has been made the issue by people opposed to the policy

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Maybe if centrist Democrats don't want people to think they support unpopular leftist ideas, they should try having some simple slogans about the policies they do support. As things are now, I have no idea what (if anything) they actually stand for on most issues other than "right and left sides both bad, so pick us".
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Red please understand no one actually gives a shit about the stupid slogan. The specific wording is not the issue, the issue is that the slogan has been made the issue by people opposed to the policy

Honestly, the stupid slogan is a big part of the issue. Pretty much everything about the cause has full public support except the dumb slogan, which Republican's have weaponized very effectively.

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https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/11/biden-covid-advisor-says-us-lockdown-of-4-to-6-weeks-could-control-pandemic-and-revive-economy.html

Oh boy here we go

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Corrik7 posted...

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/11/biden-covid-advisor-says-us-lockdown-of-4-to-6-weeks-could-control-pandemic-and-revive-economy.html

Oh boy here we go

hes right?

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No progressive lost re election in the house. Blaming the left is just the usual loser scapegoat mentality of leadership.

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Hell Corrik you've been a big proponent of "The goal is to not overrun the medical care system".

Well, guess what is happening? The hospital system is starting to be strained and will be overrun in much of the country at the current rate.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

No progressive lost re election in the house. Blaming the left is just the usual loser scapegoat mentality of leadership.

This is the problem here though, people are seeing this as an either/or situation. The fact is both are wrong. Some of these candidates were ineffective, defund the police was also a bad slogan that made running difficult.

Basically, there is plenty of blame to go around, both sides need to own up to it.

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Defend the police is not a political slogan though. She's not wrong at all.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Defend the police is not a political slogan though. She's not wrong at all.

It gets into the political discourse though. Like, theres no reason to keep the slogan. People should have realized long ago it did nothing but harm what was a popular cause and stop using it(It isn't factually accurate either).

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Yes because politicians control activists and their messaging.

How about instead of blaming activists for the failures of politicians, we blame the politicians?

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