Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 343: Guilty Spark

(+) Yeah! (+)

Then come up with a better slogan and tweet it out for all I care. But aoc is exactly right - MLK was heavily disliked in his day. We need to get over catering to bad people. We have done it long enough.

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Corrik7 posted...

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/11/biden-covid-advisor-says-us-lockdown-of-4-to-6-weeks-could-control-pandemic-and-revive-economy.html

Oh boy here we go

As much as I am for this, there will be so many protests by covidiots.

a substantial subset of our country fucking sucks

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Also in regards to MLK, I think its unfair to compare protesters to him. He was a fantastic speaker, the BLM movement as a whole could really use someone like him as a figurehead. But right now that person doesn't really exist. So for now, there really is some onus on the people to recognize "Hey this slogan isn't popular, we dont focus group, but we can see that people like the message but not the dumb slogan".

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Why be a figurehead when it gets you killed?

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Then come up with a better slogan and tweet it out for all I care. But aoc is exactly right - MLK was heavily disliked in his day. We need to get over catering to bad people. We have done it long enough.

No one is saying this though. The cause is good, the actual root meaning of the slogan is good.

The slogan just polls horribly in comparison to everything else.

You don't have to focus group to know that.

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red13n posted...

Also in regards to MLK, I think its unfair to compare protesters to him. He was a fantastic speaker, the BLM movement as a whole could really use someone like him as a figurehead. But right now that person doesn't really exist. So for now, there really is some onus on the people to recognize "Hey this slogan isn't popular, we dont focus group, but we can see that people like the message but not the dumb slogan".

Hey did you forget the part where he was fucking assassinated, not to mentioned harrassed by the government? Why the fuck do you think blm leadership is decentralized

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Well yeah, so we keep educating people. It doesn't need to poll well to be right. No ballot measures are needed to pass these things. Just pass the budgets and go 'this is all we meant'

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Why be a figurehead when it gets you killed?

I'd like to think the FBI and such has gotten better at keeping important people alive, tbh.

We haven't had a major assassination in this country in awhile.

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red13n posted...

This is the problem here though, people are seeing this as an either/or situation. The fact is both are wrong. Some of these candidates were ineffective, defund the police was also a bad slogan that made running difficult.

Basically, there is plenty of blame to go around, both sides need to own up to it.

No one ran on Defund the Police. It still hurt Democrats. Given that leftist activists will ALWAYS exist further left than mainstream Democrats, because they are not in and are not responsible for the party, how do you solve that?

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red13n posted...

No one is saying this though. The cause is good, the actual root meaning of the slogan is good.

The slogan just polls horribly in comparison to everything else.

You don't have to focus group to know that.

Politicians dont control activists. The reason activism hurts democrats is because democrats dont fucking fight back against right wing narratives about the activism. They roll over and implicitly accept all the fucking nonsense getting peddled about them.

Stop blaming activists for the failures of politicians

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red13n posted...

I'd like to think the FBI and such has gotten better at keeping important people alive, tbh.

We haven't had a major assassination in this country in awhile.

Yes the fbi who was notoriously good to mlk

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red13n posted...

I'd like to think the FBI and such has gotten better at keeping important people alive, tbh.

We haven't had a major assassination in this country in awhile.

Lol the fbi was against mlk too

Very well documented!

Basically the centrist dems are as usual scapegoating. They will do anything to not actually have change. Fuck them all. Election over, back to calling them out.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Well yeah, so we keep educating people. It doesn't need to poll well to be right. No ballot measures are needed to pass these things. Just pass the budgets and go 'this is all we meant'

No one is actually saying its wrong here though. Just that the messaging did have some impact on elections(It did).

And again, for candidates to go "Yeah those progressives cost me an election". Yes, its wrong. They shouldn't blame the people.

At the same time, people shouldn't be trying to absolve the message(Or slogan, in this case) of having impact. It did.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Basically the centrist dems are as usual scapegoating. They will do anything to not actually have change. Fuck them all. Election over, back to calling them out.

This isn't entirely fair either btw. Even Bernie wasn't touching "Defund the police" with a 10 foot pole.

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I 100% disagree that anything cost people elections but themselves. Even in swing districts progressives kept their seats. Maybe they lost because they suck

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red13n posted...

No one is actually saying its wrong here though. Just that the messaging did have some impact on elections(It did).

And again, for candidates to go "Yeah those progressives cost me an election". Yes, its wrong. They shouldn't blame the people.

At the same time, people shouldn't be trying to absolve the message(Or slogan, in this case) of having impact. It did.

You keep talking about messaging. What fucking messaging? Activist messaging? That politicians have literally 0 control over or direct affiliation with? How about the messaging of the politicians that lost? You know, the messaging they actually have control over? And ownership of?

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red13n posted...

This isn't entirely fair either btw. Even Bernie wasn't touching "Defund the police" with a 10 foot pole.

I am not disagreeing with you that I don't like the slogan. But I am not letting the politicians off that easy. Bernie didn't touch the slogan but talked about the heart. Much different than the crying going on now

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pxlated posted...

You keep talking about messaging. What fucking messaging? Activist messaging? That politicians have literally 0 control over or direct affiliation with? How about the messaging of the politicians that lost? You know, the messaging they actually have control over? And ownership of?

I didn't ever say they have control over it.

Just that it is messaging that is used against them. In the eyes of public opinion they own it too.

To say it had no impact is just ignorant. It becomes an issue whether you want it to or not.

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Then we are long overdue to educate the populace. Got to start sometime.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

I am not disagreeing with you that I don't like the slogan. But I am not letting the politicians off that easy. Bernie didn't touch the slogan but talked about the heart. Much different than the crying going on now

I don't disagree here really. I just don't like completely trying to let activists off the hook here either.

There are lessons to be learned by both sides and I don't believe in coddling either side.

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I'm astonished mafia all star Chris of all people doesn't understand the concept of being right doesn't matter if you cant convince people you are right

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red13n posted...

I didn't ever say they have control over it.

Just that it is messaging that is used against them. In the eyes of public opinion they own it too.

To say it had no impact is just ignorant. It becomes an issue whether you want it to or not.

Man you're so close to getting it but ignoring the agency the politicians have

The entire point is that the party's strategy of playing defense and giving half-assed denials does not work, but they still want to primarily blame activists instead of their own campaigns

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red13n posted...

I didn't ever say they have control over it.

Just that it is messaging that is used against them. In the eyes of public opinion they own it too.

To say it had no impact is just ignorant. It becomes an issue whether you want it to or not.

Where did i say it has no impact? Why are you so adamant about defending politicians who repeatedly fail? Literally the whole point is that blaming activists is 1) pointless and does literally nothing and 2) if democrats focused on positive fucking policy messaging instead of letting their narratives get completely fucking controlled by the opposition, they wouldnt be losing. The problem isnt the activists, its the politicians failing to apppropriately respond and campaign.

You are literally part of the problem when you accept this stupid argument that the problem is the activist messaging

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red13n posted...

I don't disagree here really. I just don't like completely trying to let activists off the hook here either.

There are lessons to be learned by both sides and I don't believe in coddling either side.

Either side??? What "side" are the activists on? What fucking power do they have?

What the fuck nonsense is this

Activists arent running fucking campaigns for political office. There is no "both sides" in this discussion

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masterplum posted...

I'm astonished mafia all star Chris of all people doesn't understand the concept of being right doesn't matter if you cant convince people you are right

This isn't mafia. If people support the measures you just do them and go 'any problems?'

Like people's lives are being made worse, I don't care to play parlor games

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Basically, I think its clear by the margins that there is more than "Defund the police" that caused these candidates to lose(Record turnout may have likely been a large portion of the blame, actually).

At the same time, there is little doubt that "Defund the police" made these races tougher. It was a dumb misleading slogan that made for easy attack ads. There is a lesson about "Don't make dumb slogans" that I think is being overlooked.

There have been among progressives on twitter recently a message of "Dont worry about your actions, its up to politicians to frame the message". This is coddling way too hard for my taste. People -should- worry about the affects of their actions, especially when they aren't necessary for their own cause. Yes, politicians should frame messaging better, but also it -is- the job of the activist to try to make their message as effective as possible. You are still trying to win in the court of public opinion.

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red13n posted...

Hell Corrik you've been a big proponent of "The goal is to not overrun the medical care system".

Well, guess what is happening? The hospital system is starting to be strained and will be overrun in much of the country at the current rate.

You can't institute federal lockdowns of non-federal locations. It is a state's right issue. It is why Trump could neither lockdown nor force states to open up.

There also is zero point to a 4-6 week lockdown in February if the vaccine is already being circulated also.

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pxlated posted...

Either side??? What "side" are the activists on? What fucking power do they have?

You don't think activists have power? What the fuck are they doing then. Might as well stay home.

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Yes. Defund the police hurt candidates because they *failed to respond to opposition messaging*

Thats not the activists fault.

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pxlated posted...

Yes. Defund the police hurt candidates because they *failed to respond to opposition messaging*

Thats not the activists fault.

This is correct.

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What part of that is delusional?

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You realize these activists played a huge part in turning public opinion, right?

You realize Georgia probably doesn't turn out for Biden without all this messaging right?

Activists have power.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Then we are long overdue to educate the populace. Got to start sometime.

Chris I appreciate where you're coming from, but you can't educate people who don't want to be educated. And that is a very, very significant portion of our population.

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StartTheMachine posted...

Chris I appreciate where you're coming from, but you can't educate people who don't want to be educated. And that is a very, very significant portion of our population.

The system is built so that the working class don't have time to be educated on politics.

We are unlikely to ever fix this.

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Keep on the defund the police bandwagon. See where that shit gets you in the future. Politicians want nothing to do with that idea anywhere outside of literal progressive havens.

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red13n posted...

At the same time, there is little doubt that "Defund the police" made these races tougher. It was a dumb misleading slogan that made for easy attack ads. There is a lesson about "Don't make dumb slogans" that I think is being overlooked.

Correct, an unchecked alarmist narrative by conservatives allowed it to affect Democratic candidates completely unrelated to the movement

red13n posted...

People -should- worry about the affects of their actions, especially when they aren't necessary for their own cause. Yes, politicians should frame messaging better, but also it -is- the job of the activist to try to make their message as effective as possible. You are still trying to win in the court of public opinion.

This might come as a shock to you but activists aren't trying to just win in the court of public opinion, they are trying to enact change by any power they have available

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The reason why we're discussing "Defund the police" instead of Democratic candidate messaging is because the former is the topic of conversation at the moment. We've discussed candidate messaging on previous occasions, and now we're discussing this. What's the problem?

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

This might come as a shock to you but activists aren't trying to just win in the court of public opinion, they are trying to enact change by any power they have available

Huh? Not disagreeing with this. I've been the one on the side of "activists have more power than most realize".

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StartTheMachine posted...

Chris I appreciate where you're coming from, but you can't educate people who don't want to be educated. And that is a very, very significant portion of our population.

Then we ignore them. Simple

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But also fighting for more education reform nation wide will help with this as well.

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People like dumb shit like "Build that Wall" and "Lock her up". They take it at a literal level.

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Corrik7 posted...

You can't institute federal lockdowns of non-federal locations. It is a state's right issue. It is why Trump could neither lockdown nor force states to open up.

There also is zero point to a 4-6 week lockdown in February if the vaccine is already being circulated also.

The vaccine is not going to be widely distributed by then. And in fact, a vaccine coming soon is all the more reason to do a lockdown, since delaying cases just a little bit longer means youll actually prevent them from happening at all.

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The vaccine everyone is currently talking about takes almost a month to be effective(A week after a second dose, which is given after like 3 weeks of the first).

If we don't control the virus, we are going to have a hell of a time even distributing the vaccine without getting everyone sick.

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red13n posted...

Huh? Not disagreeing with this. I've been the one on the side of "activists have more power than most realize".

My point is their goal isn't PR. Activists have to be centered on building a strong and persistent movement. BLM was like this too. Why do they need to change so Democrats get better PR?

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LordoftheMorons posted...

The vaccine is not going to be widely distributed by then. And in fact, a vaccine coming soon is all the more reason to do a lockdown, since delaying cases just a little bit longer means youll actually prevent them from happening at all.

They are talking about having a billion doses by the end of 2021. Everyone requires 2. That means like 680-700 million doses. Which a significant portion of the populace will refuse to take. A significant portion of the populace will have already had it. I feel comfortable in saying in February the vaccines would be significantly distributed to those who want and need them.

Also, it is literally unconstitutional to impose a federal nationwide lockdown, so it's dumb.

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red13n posted...

The system is built so that the working class don't have time to be educated on politics.

We are unlikely to ever fix this.

As a quick aside, labor unions are a pretty good way to get the working class active politically, so political education is not really as hopeless as you think

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

But also fighting for more education reform nation wide will help with this as well.

It goes beyond education reform actually. The education system is designed to throw people into an economy where they have little free time beyond work and stuck on a focus of personal wealth.

Unless you advocate for shorter work weeks or things like that, people will -never- have time for political investment beyond a surface level.

But again, the whole system is built to prevent the populace from realizing how much they are being exploited.

Oh and Prop 22 in California just made this significantly worse. Because now big businesses have realized they can literally just buy laws to exploit workers further.

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That's true. I work ten hours a week now and it is fucking amazing.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

My point is their goal isn't PR. Activists have to be centered on building a strong and persistent movement. BLM was like this too. Why do they need to change so Democrats get better PR?

I'm not saying they should change. Fuck that. They got "Defund the police" to trend nationwide. Thats good. It shows how powerful they are(Saying activists dont have power is still very wrong).

Its just the slogan sucks. Recognize it, drop it, come up with something else and go. All I ask is that people dont go "lol that didnt suck fuck you". Because it did. Own it, move on.

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red13n posted...

I'm not saying they should change. Fuck that. They got "Defund the police" to trend nationwide. Thats good. It shows how powerful they are(Saying activists dont have power is still very wrong).

Its just the slogan sucks. Recognize it, drop it, come up with something else and go. All I ask is that people dont go "lol that didnt suck fuck you". Because it did. Own it, move on.

Well I can't speak for activists but I can tell you right now that they're only going to change the slogan if it isn't doing work for them. I'll disagree with AOC on a point - activists probably do "focus testing" in some form, and for all I know it's a good slogan for the ones still using it. Maybe their goal is specifically to be radical, as BLM was initially. So that isnt happening, Democrats have no control over it.

So who are you telling to drop it?

Edit: If your point is that I'm arguing that Defund didn't hurt Dems, I'm not. I've been arguing Dems let it happen to themselves. And I, personally, support defunding the police so I'm not going to stop saying it unless the movement shifts because it is not my job to focus test slogans.

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