Board 8 > Biden | 40,962,735 | 57.64% | Trump | 27,258,817 | 38.36% [Ng Election Tracker!]

(+) Yeah! (+)

If you've waited 4 years and haven't changed you seem pretty entrenched imhotbqh

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masterplum posted...

That's the sort of attitude that got us into this hyper partisan plotting to kidnap governors mess.

Cutting off friendship for politics is terrible. You don't want every friend of yours to share the exact same views.

An absolute statement like, you should never end a friendship over politics, is just as bad as dogmatic partisanship.

Simply put, there are limits to how extreme your politics can be without being actually immoral/harmful. That space is very broad, but it is not boundless. Politics is NOT, like, just your opinion, man. That is a childish simplification. Politics has REAL effects on REAL peoples lives.

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only a sith deals in absolutes

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Comparing politics to nazism is ridiculous. Im obviously talking about normal politics.

spoilers: the 45% of the country voting for trump arent all nazis

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Yes there is a difference between something like the top tax rate is too high and youre hurting the economy and gay people are immoral and shouldnt be allowed to adopt children.

One is a political opinion and one is bigotry that wants political action.

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masterplum posted...

Comparing politics to nazism is ridiculous. Im obviously talking about normal politics.

spoilers: the 45% of the country voting for trump arent all nazis

its true

some are fascists instead

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masterplum posted...

Im obviously talking about normal politics.

ok but why were you talking about trump then

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That's weird

Every time I say I voted Gary Johnson, even to the politically active (Trump or Hillary supporters), they have always been like "oh, yeah, that's cool"

Maybe it's because I'm from New Mexico and he's our "hometown boy"

But it could also be because I did legitimate research on his positions and such and agreed with him over the other two rather than simply dressing it as "I didn't want to vote Hillary or Trump"

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If people think I shouldn't be able to get married or have custody of my son I don't want to be friends with them tbqh

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masterplum posted...

spoilers: the 45% of the country voting for trump arent all nazis

Right, so why dont we break down what they actually are:

• actual Nazis. Sadly, I think the last four years have proven they do actually exist.
• people who arent Nazis, but are definitely racist, homophobic, transphobic, xenophobic, etc.
• people who are just straight up ignorant, willfully or otherwise, of what Trump is really doing and/or what democrats really are doing and want to do.
• people who are fully aware of all the shitty things Trump has done or enabled, and dont necessarily approve of it. But they are (nobly) willing to sacrifice the well being of those harmed by his actions because they believe that Trump is better for the economy (or more accurately, their personal portfolios). Either this group or the previous one is probably the largest group of Trump voters, YMMV.

Now tell me, did I miss anyone?

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Lopen posted...

That's weird

Every time I say I voted Gary Johnson, even to the politically active (Trump or Hillary supporters), they have always been like "oh, yeah, that's cool"

Maybe it's because I'm from New Mexico and he's our "hometown boy"

But it could also be because I did legitimate research on his positions and such and agreed with him over the other two rather than simply dressing it as "I didn't want to vote Hillary or Trump"

New Mexico is so blue youre allowed to do whatever you want and no one complains!

I think youd get a very different reaction if you said the same thing and lived in Pennsylvania.

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TotallyNotMI posted...

If people think I shouldn't be able to get married or have custody of my son I don't want to be friends with them tbqh

And, extrapolating from this, you cant be friends with both gay people and someone that wants to destroy their life and family through political action.

People arent cutting others out of their lives because of disagreements with zoning laws. Its because of stuff like that threatens the health and happiness of others.

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redrocket posted...

Right, so why dont we break down what they actually are:

* actual Nazis. Sadly, I think the last four years have proven they do actually exist.
* people who arent Nazis, but are definitely racist, homophobic, transphobic, xenophobic, etc.
* people who are just straight up ignorant, willfully or otherwise, of what Trump is really doing and/or what democrats really are doing and want to do.
* people who are fully aware of all the shitty things Trump has done or enabled, and dont necessarily approve of it. But they are (nobly) willing to sacrifice the well being of those harmed by his actions because they believe that Trump is better for the economy (or more accurately, their personal portfolios). Either this group or the previous one is probably the largest group of Trump voters, YMMV.

Now tell me, did I miss anyone?

probably a mix of all four, but don't forget one/two-issue evangelical christians in the south who still vote red no matter what solely because of abortion or gun control


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You guys are proving my point.

Nobody is ever going to change their mind about anything if you lump them all in with fascists. They'll think they are being attacked for being a fascist when they aren't one.

Man we're screwed

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But it could also be because I did legitimate research on his positions and such and agreed with him over the other two rather than simply dressing it as "I didn't want to vote Hillary or Trump"

And again, I find this totally reasonable if you live in a state left of Virginia or right of Montana. There is absolutely nothing wrong with aligning yourself closer to the libertarian party or the green party or the birthday party (well maybe the birthday party).

But I have more of a problem if you are voting third party in a competitive state. Because, even if you prefer a third party, any reasonable person can see they are non viable in the election and you are effectively voting for "I don't want to vote for either outcome". This only makes sense if you fully believe Trump and Biden are exactly the same and there is absolutely no difference between them and the lives of everyone will be the same regardless of which of these two is president, which I strongly disagree with.

It sucks but with only two viable parties and the electoral college, I would say third party voters have a moral obligation to vote for one of the two leading candidates and any other vote is equivalent to abstaining.

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masterplum posted...

You guys are proving my point.

Nobody is ever going to change their mind about anything if you lump them all in with fascists. They'll think they are being attacked for being a fascist when they aren't one.

Man we're screwed

Huh? A lot of nazis changed their mind after World War 2 because the whole world was calling them fascists.
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masterplum posted...

You guys are proving my point.

Nobody is ever going to change their mind about anything if you lump them all in with fascists. They'll think they are being attacked for being a fascist when they aren't one.

Man we're screwed

I mean, they could also say "Hey, maybe I should stop aligning with fascists, bigots and Nazis. I'm none of those things, but if all three groups are supporting my party, maybe there's something wrong with my party."

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I'm voting third party, only because I live in California now and Biden is a lock.

But I disparage nobody for voting third party now, even in a competitive state. I would vote for Biden if I still lived in PA, but Joe Biden has done a terrible job trying to earn anyone's vote. He frankly doesn't deserve anyone's vote for being the Not Trump candidate.

I don't agree with people who voted third party in contested states, but I find it really hard to disparage them when both candidates are so fucking awful.

But I do find it amusing that my house mate was imploring me to vote Biden still after I explained why I'm voting third party and he said I should still vote for Biden so he gets more popular votes and it will make Trump mad when Biden wins the popular vote by a lot and I'm just like, I don't give a shit about hurting some old ass man's feelings with my faceless vote.

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Suprak the Stud posted...

It sucks but with only two viable parties and the electoral college, I would say third party voters have a moral obligation to vote for one of the two leading candidates and any other vote is equivalent to abstaining.

I would have voted Johnson in any state in 2016 even though New Mexico is blue enough that my vote didn't really matter. Speaking against bipartisan politics has more value than choosing between a turd sandwich and a giant douche.

This year I'll vote for the forty seven century old ancient mummy because I've always been a fan of the lore, though, even if it'll probably be even less close.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact

Would be cool to see this go through and effectively make the popular vote matter again.

Lopen posted...

Speaking against bipartisan politics has more value

What value does speaking against bipartisan politics have?
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I mean if you're voting Trump, even if you don't believe in fascism yourself, you're voting for a candidate for whom one of his defining features is that he is a fascist.
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I have more to say but if you want to chat about this I'd suggest hopping over to the politics containment topic. I feel bad clogging up this topic because I feel the focus here is slightly different and I don't want to drive people away from the fun statistical stuff.

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UltimaterializerX posted...

Fascists and bigots are almost all on the left in this country, as evidenced by the rhetoric coming out of the riots in recent months. By your own logic, you should realize something is wrong with your party when it attracts bad people.

See how dumb your logic is when you conflate he worst people with an entire group?

Do you not know what fascism is, Ulti? And do you not know what bigotry is? Also, noticed you couldn't claim Nazis were on the left...I guess that's a bit difficult to disprove when "Unite the Right" were the ones chanting "Jews will not replace us!"

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Well, this topic held on as long as it could

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Mac Arrowny posted...

Huh? A lot of nazis changed their mind after World War 2 because the whole world was calling them fascists.

LMAO

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Trump is not a fascist. Nor are most of his voters. Identifying whole classes of people based on one aspect of them is more like fascism.

masterplum posted...

You guys are proving my point.

you have no point.

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UltimaterializerX posted...

If you cut off a friendship over politics, you have something seriously wrong with you. That is cult behavior. Miss me with that nonsense. I happily talk with anyone from any walk of life. You beat bad ideas with good ideas, not with youre an asshole and I will dig my heels in and never talk to you again.

Or maybe you just cannot live with yourself if you're friends with somebody who supports openly putting kids in cages. The issue is black and white here. You won't respond to this, because you never respond to things that undermine your argument, but on moral grounds, there is no justification to vote for Trump. None.

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HeroicCrono posted...

Trump is not a fascist. Nor are most of his voters. Identifying whole classes of people based on one aspect of them is more like fascism.

Oh yes, they aren't

https://twitter.com/theserfstv/status/1321893339264741376?s=19

...Wait.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Eingangstor_des_KZ_Auschwitz%2C_Arbeit_macht_frei_%282007%29.jpg

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ulti: not talking to people over opinions is bad! you should beat bad ideas with good ideas!
also ulti: *literally has half the board blocked*

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masterplum posted...

You guys are proving my point.

Nobody is ever going to change their mind about anything if you lump them all in with fascists. They'll think they are being attacked for being a fascist when they aren't one.

Man we're screwed

i'm really tired of having to baby trump voters. they need to just get over their feelings and recognize truth

to be fair, i'd clarify what you said and say it's impossible to change peoples' opinions online in general. you can only change the minds of those who already know and care about you, or at least have some sort of connection. public forums just put people on the defensive

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banananor posted...

you can only change the minds of those who already know and care about you

You can actually train yourself to have an open mind and discuss legitimately, but yeah that's not most people.

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As for the kids in cages stuff, Obama passed a law stating that you were allowed in if you had a child with you, no questions asked. This led to rampant kidnppings all over South America thanks to the law of unintended consequences.

Liar. You forget I am from South America. You think you keep track of the news in my fucking continent better than me?

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

you have no point.

Ah your right. I am completely wrong and have been defeated by your powerful rhetoric

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UltimaterializerX posted...

45 million people applied for unemployment in the months following forced lockdowns and the government telling people who was essential or not. This is fundamentally and objectively wrong. We are now seeing that going to work can be done safely.

Yep just as we hit the highest amount of cases!

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This is the part where people feel political retribution for arguing with ulti.

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UltimaterializerX posted...

Kans, the dude is literally only saying forced lockdowns that cost people their jobs is terrible. You cannot possibly be ignorant enough to conflate that with labor camps. Like I have to be seeing a practical joke or something because I know youre not a stupid person.

45 million people applied for unemployment in the months following forced lockdowns and the government telling people who was essential or not. This is fundamentally and objectively wrong. We are now seeing that going to work can be done safely.

You're trying to use my continent as a cudgel for arguments against me. You are trying to push forth a narrative not one news outfit, not rightwing and not leftwing, across multiple countries, picked up. Not big news agencies like Tlam or Abril, not independent journos. It is, in the most definitional way, fake news, a reporting item that only exists as a talking point in your country, between your ignorant chucklefucks, and you're trying to sell it to me as fact. Get the fuck out, Ulti. You do not have credibility with me. There was no wave of kidnappings in south america. Why should I engage you critically when your talking points are outright fabrications?

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Mac Arrowny posted...

What value does speaking against bipartisan politics have?

I figure if the third party can start breaking into a reasonable percentage in enough states we'd at least investigate redoing the system a little bit. There is some value to that. If enough third party supporters leave the "throwing the vote away" mindset it could happen.

I mean do I think Hillary would have screwed things up less enough to be worth more? Eh, not sure really.

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nooo ulti's self-satisfaction is hitting critical levels someone counter himmmmmm

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UltimaterializerX posted...

If you cut off a friendship over politics, you have something seriously wrong with you. That is cult behavior. Miss me with that nonsense. I happily talk with anyone from any walk of life. You beat bad ideas with good ideas, not with youre an asshole and I will dig my heels in and never talk to you again.

Why havent your good ideas beaten our bad ideas yet?
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Produce a latin american source. One. I dare you to try.

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