Board 8 > League of Legends Topic 20 - "Do you wanna play? It'll be fun."

(+) Yeah! (+)

If you are in a solo getting Sheen as fast as possible makes you really hard to deal with. If you are being supported Bloodthirster is pretty awesome as a first item.

You want a lot of attack speed and a lot of damage with her basically.

Thirster, Cleaver, Dancer and stuff.

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Sir Chris
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I've never seen a Vayne who didn't get attack speed items.

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Started: July 6, 2005

Sheen. Interesting. Would upgrading it to trinity force be prudent in the case of a solo lane? Or just leave it as Sheen and sell it when you need the space?

Also is Sheen/Trinity Force a good item for her if she's not in a solo lane down the line?

Also I went roll->wall pin->silver bolt for maxing priority is that correct.

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I've never seen a Vayne who didn't get attack speed items.

Why would you get more than one AS item on Vayne. Your passive is going to proc once per teamfight if we're being generous.

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nah I've gotten it to go off like 6 times

So my friend finally convinced me to start playing this, and so far I'm really liking the game. I am still using different champions to see which one fits my play style for now. My LoL name is Arctic Cress, for the record.

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KanzarisKelshen posted...
Anagram posted...
I've never seen a Vayne who didn't get attack speed items.

Why would you get more than one AS item on Vayne. Your passive is going to proc once per teamfight if we're being generous.

I don't know. I don't play Vayne much even though I like her, I'm just saying what I saw.

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I main Morgana on my main and nothing frustrates me more than teams that don't know how she initiates with Ult+Zhonyas.

The whole team swings away and my team sits there like I'm suicidal even though I've explained what my plan is.

Also, something else that grinds my gears, is when the enemy team's carry is off free farming and my team doesn't

A.Press the 4 on 5 advantage by forcing a team fight
B.Gank them.


Seeing a Vayne I butchered top lane get 250 minion kills after an 0/3 start just makes me sad.

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You gotta be aware of your team. If your team isn't in position it doesn't much matter if you tell them what to do.

Also rushing out to do the ult + zhonia's combo outside of turret range when they're pushing bottom turret was just dumb. Sorry. I didn't expect you to do it there because it's stupid to do it there, especially when they're clearly ahead of us in points.

It was just a bad move in general. Can't really blame the team for that.

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If you are in a solo getting Sheen as fast as possible makes you really hard to deal with. If you are being supported Bloodthirster is pretty awesome as a first item.

You want a lot of attack speed and a lot of damage with her basically.

Thirster, Cleaver, Dancer and stuff.

You don't get IE on vayne?

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maybe, lol

that'd be filed under "and stuff"

I was just naming items that I could think up. I think IE is an awesome item but I don't think its always needed on Vayne, and its a later item if it is.

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From: Lopen | #202
Sheen. Interesting. Would upgrading it to trinity force be prudent in the case of a solo lane? Or just leave it as Sheen and sell it when you need the space?

Also is Sheen/Trinity Force a good item for her if she's not in a solo lane down the line?

Also I went roll->wall pin->silver bolt for maxing priority is that correct.

That depends on the encounter. Like, that seems pretty accurate but you want to wall pin when you know its going to be deadly.

Also triforce is awesome on her because it gives you a lot of stuff that's super useful on her. Its just that it isnt as good in a duo because you gain more from burst AD damage while Sheen helps you win a lane.

So, like, Triforce - Thirster - Cleaver - other stuff
Or - Thirster - Cleaver - other stuff

other stuff being IE, PD, Banshees generally. Her silver bolts make attack speed very good on her and as soon as you get a couple of damage items she hits like a truck.

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Sir Chris
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In fact while we're on the topic that's something that really grinds my gears.

When someone initiates then blames the team when it was in fact a bad initiate.

If you're initiating you need to be aware of where everyone on your team is first and foremost. Newbie and IngarBirdman both did this in recent games too. Though in their case it was "initiating into lopsided encounters and yelling at the team for not being there when some of them were clearly too far away to capitalize on the initiate" rather than "why are you initiating away from the tower when you could be (and need to be) initiating at the tower"

Newbie's case was especially funny, as he was like "I caught 3 of them out of position where were you guys" and I'm like "looks like 3 of them caught you out of position."

And it was pretty much true.

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Please dont thirster first on Vayne. She scales really, really hard...with attack speed.

thirster is a huge investment and a waste of a ton of damage(If you really wanted raw damage, infinity edge would be the item to get. But you dont)

Why would you get more than one AS item on Vayne. Your passive is going to proc once per teamfight if we're being generous.

Do not listen to the above statement.

At all.

Cleaver+Dancer+Dancer is literally the destroyer of worlds build.

I usually do some variation of the above with survivability items thrown in as needed.

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Yeah flip cleaver/thirster there I suppose. Grab a scepter before finishing cleaver.

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Sir Chris
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Ooh. Hard AS Scaling huh. An excuse to use two phantom dancers on a champ that already moves fast without people yelling at me excessively for it?

Sign me up. Gotta try this.

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I almost never play characters who initiate so that teamfight was my bad. I shouldn't have initiated any teamfights ever in that game because thanks to Xin's genius glass-cannon, absolutely-no-MR build against Veigar / Nunu / Karthus / Cho we weren't going to win any. After that baron we would have won much sooner if we had just done the whole "wait at blue and wait for some idiot to come by" ambush.

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red13n posted...
Please dont thirster first on Vayne. She scales really, really hard...with attack speed.

thirster is a huge investment and a waste of a ton of damage(If you really wanted raw damage, infinity edge would be the item to get. But you dont)

Why would you get more than one AS item on Vayne. Your passive is going to proc once per teamfight if we're being generous.

Do not listen to the above statement.

At all.

Cleaver+Dancer+Dancer is literally the destroyer of worlds build.

I usually do some variation of the above with survivability items thrown in as needed.

For kicks.

That build's AS: roughly 1.85.

AS of say, an IE + Dancer + Claver build (using Cleaver because of the ArPen, swap it for brutalizer, beefsword and a vampscept if you want a little more sustain): 1.35

Damage of aforementioned build on a typical squishy per second: 648 (applying silver shots across all three hits, assuming you attack the same target without interruptions, should be 40ish damage a shot)

Damage of second build on a typical squishy per second: 638 (assuming about 25ish damage per silver counter)


So it looks like the first build gets ahead...but HOLD IT!

First build's Tumble damage: 512

Second Build's Tumble Damage: 810


So yeah red, gg but no re. AS Vayne is straight up worse because of Tumble unless I got my math terribly, terribly wrong. Not to mention Condemn, and the fact that usually, you will NOT be able to autoattack your teamfight targets to death because you will be the enemy team's most wanted and you lose a bunch of damage if you're kited away. As usual, even stat mixing wins over heavy single stat stacking.

PS: Just so that everybody else can replicate my results: I used Zerkers for both builds, and used Corki as my baseline test character. If you want to run tests on Heimer and Shen/Alistar to see how the builds match up against extremes you're invited to do so. I can run tests against higher armor/health values if you wish too.

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I guess I'll field this one ^_^


First of all the "2 builds" you are comparing only differ by 1 item (IE instead of the 2nd PD) and so the 2nd build costs 1000 gold more.



And second of all simple number crunching does not necessarily reflect how different builds work in practice. You seem to be indicating the IE is needed for roll damage, but attack speed DOES have its place in vayne, particularly when laning bottom. The idea is that when your opponents give you the opportunity, you punish them with a roll and attack(s). Because of that all that front loaded damage most people have to turn because they will not stand up to a sustained fight at that point. (Or perhaps you got into position to hit them after they were already turned, making it even less likely that they are going to turn back to you)

But the point is that you have a VERY limited amount of time to get your shots in and sticking the attack speed at the front of your build makes the most of this. It can be the difference between 2 shots instead of 1 or more often 3 instead of 2 before you can no longer attack them.

What's more I think you underestimate the value of silver bolts:
The third consecutive attack or ability against the same target deals an additional 20/30/40/50/60 plus 4/5/6/7/8% of the target's maximum Health as true damage.

I bolded the important part. The damage from silver bullets is NOT mitigated by armor at all. Getting more true damage procs holds a lot of value. And again the simple practicality of how vayne lanes and teamfights makes this viable.



There is also the idea of how practically you can finish the items and which ones you can make the most use of in which order. IE for this reason is NOT ideal on vayne and Cleaver is the much more useful first item to build. You'll get some attack speed (all the better to get the 3rd attack sooner with), and you'll get damage and the armor shred. All very useful. And so thats 2900~ gold down. You can NOT chase a cleaver with an IE because it just isn't practical. You end up saving 1650 for your next buy when you could be picking up your zeal for less than 1200 and then of course you'll have your finished product a whole 1000 gold sooner.

And so now that you've dropped nearly 6k on Cleaver and PD you will probably have survivability to consider if your opponents give you cause to worry at all. So thats 2700 on a veil.



The point to see here is there very likely will not be room in her build order for any kind of early IE. And also I think you under value silver bolts.

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Eff_Dee

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I forgot how to build MF help me.

Also, Cassiopeia on a 20 FPS machine is HARD

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buy a graphics card =P

20 FPS is unplayable when you are used to 60.

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Eff_Dee

I have one that I could use but I'm too lazy to install it.

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My MF build usually goes:

Vampiric Scepter -> Boots -> B.F. Sword/Beserkers -> Bloodthirster -> Phage -> Giant's Belt -> Frozen Mallet

And then Last Whisper if I need Armour pen., then IE, PD and possibly another PD for my boots if it gets that far.

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Biolizard28 posted...
I have one that I could use but I'm too lazy to install it.

WHAT?!

Do it now!


If you are seriously using an onboard GPU when you could put in an actual card then you need to be punched through the internets.

As long as you remember to ground yourself when you open the tower (and before you touch the card direction) its easy as cake.

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Forceful_Dragon posted...
I guess I'll field this one ^_^


First of all the "2 builds" you are comparing only differ by 1 item (IE instead of the 2nd PD) and so the 2nd build costs 1000 gold more.



And second of all simple number crunching does not necessarily reflect how different builds work in practice. You seem to be indicating the IE is needed for roll damage, but attack speed DOES have its place in vayne, particularly when laning bottom. The idea is that when your opponents give you the opportunity, you punish them with a roll and attack(s). Because of that all that front loaded damage most people have to turn because they will not stand up to a sustained fight at that point. (Or perhaps you got into position to hit them after they were already turned, making it even less likely that they are going to turn back to you)

But the point is that you have a VERY limited amount of time to get your shots in and sticking the attack speed at the front of your build makes the most of this. It can be the difference between 2 shots instead of 1 or more often 3 instead of 2 before you can no longer attack them.

What's more I think you underestimate the value of silver bolts:
The third consecutive attack or ability against the same target deals an additional 20/30/40/50/60 plus 4/5/6/7/8% of the target's maximum Health as true damage.

I bolded the important part. The damage from silver bullets is NOT mitigated by armor at all. Getting more true damage procs holds a lot of value. And again the simple practicality of how vayne lanes and teamfights makes this viable.



There is also the idea of how practically you can finish the items and which ones you can make the most use of in which order. IE for this reason is NOT ideal on vayne and Cleaver is the much more useful first item to build. You'll get some attack speed (all the better to get the 3rd attack sooner with), and you'll get damage and the armor shred. All very useful. And so thats 2900~ gold down. You can NOT chase a cleaver with an IE because it just isn't practical. You end up saving 1650 for your next buy when you could be picking up your zeal for less than 1200 and then of course you'll have your finished product a whole 1000 gold sooner.

And so now that you've dropped nearly 6k on Cleaver and PD you will probably have survivability to consider if your opponents give you cause to worry at all. So thats 2700 on a veil.



The point to see here is there very likely will not be room in her build order for any kind of early IE. And also I think you under value silver bolts.

I see. The point where I disagree is on the frontloading - in a teamfight you just can't pull that sort of concentrated focus enough for Silver Bolts to pull its weight so straight-up damage is better imo, particularly because it makes your Q pokes absolutely incredible. I can see the argument for AS though - it's not the better damage build, but it is the build that is easier to pull off, which is very important in a real fight. So the IE build would be more like an "in case of winning, buy to winmore" build vs. the dancer build being "in case of long game and sustained farming, buy to keep scaling". I can see how Cleaver functions as a terrific first item regardless though!

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Biolizard28 posted...
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I forgot how to build MF help me.

I start with either boots/3 health pots or a Doran's Blade depending on who I expect to be facing, and then rush IE, getting the crit cloak last. Ideally you won't have to spend money on wards because you'll have a support do it for you, but you often will anyway, and in mid you always will have to. I pick up Berserker's whenever it seems convenient, ideally after IE but sometimes you're just in a position where you can afford them earlier. Sometimes I pick up a BT instead of IE, but that's fairly rare, I normally only do it if I have a BFS but no pickaxe or cloak and can afford a BT but not an IE.

After IE, I usually pick up PD. I've tooled around with other AS items, but none of them are as reliably good as the PD, and it enhances MF's already extremely high speed (she's the fastest character in the game without using an active ability, assuming you can avoid being hit).

After PD, it depends. If I'm up against multiple tanky guys (like a Shen and Jarvan on the same team), I'll pick up a LW. I've tried the BC, and yeah, it's good, but I like the LW more. If it's really just one tank and four squishies, I might pick up another AD item. Technically, MF has abilities that scale with AP but I've never heard of anyone trying to take advantage of that. If, however, I'm getting focused a lot in team fights, or there's like a really annoying Master Yi or something, I sometimes pick up a defensive item here like Banshee's or Guardian. I hate to spend money on tank items, but if you're going down too quickly you sometimes have to blow money on it.

If the game goes on beyond that, at this point I'll pick up a BT if I bought IE and LW, which is my usual build. Sometimes I'll grab a second AS item for the lulz (recurve bow is always nice, since it's only 1000 gold and builds into stuff), but honestly, MF benefits more from AD than AS even though high AS is really fun. I've tried some weird item ideas (stacking movement speed, stacking ridiculously high AS), but the core items of Berserker's, IE, PD, and LW/BT are your best bet for the largest number of games.

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my cassio success seems to have worn off =/

she has no CC at all so she really needs someone to set up kills for her since it takes to long to pump out the damage

no reliable CC she can use for every enemy she faces*

too long to pump out damage? Cass has some pretty good burst imo. The problem is executing her burst.

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Eff_Dee

Yeah 20 FPS is really bad. I pretty much can't play at 20 FPS unless I'm using like Heimerdinger.

Also I think Kan has a bit of a point on the roll damage being more important than you guys give credit for. Especially considering you can roll every 2 seconds or so at max level. I think both builds have their place-- though the AS build is probably stronger against competent teams in general as even the squishies will get some defense if you're rolling them as teams get better, and AS scales much better against any opponent that bothers with defense.

But if you're good at catching the squishies unawares, and squishies are remaining fairly squishy, I'd say more AD is better as you've got significantly better burst damage building AD between the roll, condemn, and better attack damage with less attacks. And if you're trying to burst, you're probably not actually getting too many attacks off before they're dead.

That bein said give me the AS build all day because as I said it sounds more fun.

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wouldn't wit's end make more sense than a second PD on vayne if you're stacking ASPD?

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maybe, lol

oh hey brasil updated rankings

Mordekaizer - Es the best, #1, always win never loose, forever, i tell u 1 year ago, now i see everywhere on american forum. dont believe? u r probably irelia player.

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anyone know what time the north american finals are?

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Rylai's Crystal Scepter on Cass is pretty epic and gives her a .5 second slow.

If you're chasing someone they CAN NOT escape. Ever.

In team fights it helps if someone tries to focus you. Spam Q and then retreat. If they keep chasing you spam E and continue slowing them.

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wouldn't wit's end make more sense than a second PD on vayne if you're stacking ASPD?

Thats really late in the game for a very small amount of magic(Key part here) damage. The extra critMSpd/AS is more valuable. Unless you are really worried about magic damage yourself(Say, its an all-AP team on the other side). But in a general case, wit's end isnt worth it there.

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Bad day today, chalking it up to bad hardware. Except my second game.

Nobody should suck THAT BADLY with Fiddlesticks.

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I've been fooling around with Annie, and thus far, I've very much enjoyed it, much more than my times with Zileas and Viegar.

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Anagram posted...
I've been fooling around with Annie, and thus far, I've very much enjoyed it, much more than my times with Zileas and Viegar.

because annie poops on them both

she actually poops on almost all the champions in the game!

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Orianna is so much fun. I tried out Lich Bane on her earlier, and wow it made a huge difference.

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Aecioo posted...
Anagram posted...
I've been fooling around with Annie, and thus far, I've very much enjoyed it, much more than my times with Zileas and Viegar.

because annie poops on them both

she actually poops on almost all the champions in the game!

I have to admit that I feel a little awkward with her. Her autoattacks do nothing, which I know is kind of the point of a mage champion, but it makes attacking buildings take forever because nothing with AP has AS. I enjoy her as an alternative to my other characters, but I always feel a little odd trying to use her to her fullest potential.

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kill champion -> have tibbers attack tower with you

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Justin_Crossing posted...
kill champion -> have tibbers attack tower with you

Every time I attack a tower with Tibbers, it immediately targets it even though it's not doing anything (other than attacking).

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you're still doing like 1k to the tower at level 6 with you, tibbers, and some minions

no champion is supposed to be able to push a tower down at 6 solo except for maybe heimer if he gets lucky

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I have never had a bad Annie game. She is just flat out amazing.

Good early game. Amazing mid game. You never need mana since she recovers it. She can farm all day if let loose and if the enemy gets close....

Boom.

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Realo won gold at the Sex Olympics with a BROKEN FRIGGIN NECK.-Voltch

I have a new found respect for Trist.

I read some guides on Solomid and watched some of the top tier guys play her and I realized my biggest mistake was sitting in one space and not getting good position.

I also wasn't poking enemies down with her retarded ass range. Fixed those things and I've been carrying games my team should've lost. Down 19 to 34 in kills. Doesn't matter with fed Trist.

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Realo won gold at the Sex Olympics with a BROKEN FRIGGIN NECK.-Voltch

TheConductorSix posted...
I have never had a bad Annie game. She is just flat out amazing.

Good early game. Amazing mid game. You never need mana since she recovers it. She can farm all day if let loose and if the enemy gets close....

Boom.

Yeah, Annie has absolutely insane burst damage. I don't know of anything like it.

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It's not just that. It's that once she gets 2 levels of her stun she has a combo that wipes every enemy champ this side of Galio.

Q for the Level 3, W for the Level 4, Tibbers for the BOOM and the Stun, Q is up again if they're not already dead with Ignite.

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Realo won gold at the Sex Olympics with a BROKEN FRIGGIN NECK.-Voltch

I think I'm going to spend my IP and stuff to invest in jungle Warwick. I played him during his free week and enjoyed myself, he's tankish, and jungling works for me. This could be a good fit. Certainly not a bad choice.

Tips/vetoes?

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Boots+3 pots>Sheen>Black Clever>Zeal>TF is my Vayne build with a VS somewhere in there. Sheen is pretty awesome for a tumble, makes it really easy to bully someone out of lane if they are a good spot to get 3 autoattacks off on them.

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Whatever...

Monkey King is the next champion, Skarner be damned.


http://www.leagueoflegends.com/news/champion-sneak-peek-%E2%80%93-wukong-monkey-king

League of Wukong.

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Started: July 6, 2005