Board 8 > 2023-2024 NBA Topic 1

(+) Yeah! (+)

We really need a topic with everything going on!

like emo Jimmy Butler

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WDTjVJo2EGI

Dame going to Milwaukee was crazy

how does Boston feel after their own trade with Portland

Boston has to be right there with milwaukee as favorites imo

I think the blazers did amazing, and I'm not a fan of how dame handled the whole thing. But the fact the blazers were able to get more than the heat's best offer (that they could've offered, not that they did offer afaik) is a huge win. Between dame and simmons, I am hoping players start to get it in their head they can't bully these franchises around as much as they think they can. Making a trade request is fine, but if the franchise doesn't feel like they can get good value then the player should play out his contract.

oh ya go my Pistonz Cade finally healthy for the first time in his pro career

From what I've heard, Miami seemed sure that Herro was going to get it done for Dame.

Portland did pretty well for themselves really. Time Lord, Ayton, Brogdon and a bunch of picks for a guy that wanted out, and they have 19 year old Scoot Henderson? Not sure how the fanbase feels.

Milwaukee looks super dangerous offensively but they really are going to miss a perimeter defender. But I think teams really want to be able to outshoot their opponents more than defend them. They also need to keep Giannis in town somehow and this might do it. They will be a blast to watch.

Dame said in the spring that he wanted to play with Giannis. Maybe he didn't mean "in Milwaukee" but hey. :)

I have nothing against Milwaukee and have never been there.

jimmy also posted an insta or a tiktok where he was listening to my chem, so he's an honorary emo for sure

Portlands future looks bright for sure, the West is still fucking stacked tho.

Emeraldegg posted...

I think the blazers did amazing, and I'm not a fan of how dame handled the whole thing. But the fact the blazers were able to get more than the heat's best offer (that they could've offered, not that they did offer afaik) is a huge win. Between dame and simmons, I am hoping players start to get it in their head they can't bully these franchises around as much as they think they can. Making a trade request is fine, but if the franchise doesn't feel like they can get good value then the player should play out his contract.

Nah, don't put this all on Dame. Reportedly when it was clear he wasn't going to Miami, he said he wanted to stay in Portland, and he was told it was too late for that. Portland did him dirty by blatantly refusing to do business with his preferred destination, regardless of whether you think Miami's offer was good or not. They weren't sending him there.

Also I don't want to hear that "Herro didn't fit" what the Blazers wanted to do. Then just flip him like you just did with Holiday. You could have gotten a good return on Herro, too. They just didn't want to send Dame where he wanted to go, so I don't want to hear that he's the bad guy here.

If anything, the problem is that Dame wasn't willing to be more of a bad guy and a bully because he didn't want to alienate himself from the Portland fanbase. Portland called his bluff, and he folded.

I might be underrating Herro. What I heard on the radio was that Miami was basically like "well he wants to come here and you're getting Tyler Herro for him" and they didn't negotiate a whole lot.

It's likely there are more details I haven't heard or read. But it seemed from multiple sources like Miami didn't really engage with Portland a whole lot. I suppose it's possible that was Portland's fault!

There is no bad guy here. Portland had no obligation to send him where he wanted. Miamis offer was dog shit if they werent willing to send Bam too.

Also it is a bad precedent to send stars to their preferred destinations. If it works out it should be because the deal was also the best deal they could get. If anyone is to blame its people like Harden and KD who just kind of force their ways out. Harden who is still doing that shit.

Eh, Milwaukee's deal was bad, too, without bringing in a third team. I'm sure Miami could've found a third team, too, but it also sounds like Portland wanted nothing to do with sending Lillard there. It felt like they just stonewalled him because he made it public, so that's why I push back on the idea of not liking how Dame handled it when I don't think the Portland front office really tried to do right by him either.

Like there's a difference between "we didn't like Miami's offer" and "we aren't sending you to Miami," and it feels like Portland wasn't just operating under the basis of the former there.

He (or his agent) made it public AND tanked his trade value by saying he wouldn't play anywhere else even if he was traded. So then Miami sent nothing but crap offers

KommunistKoala posted...

He (or his agent) made it public AND tanked his trade value by saying he wouldn't play anywhere else even if he was traded. So then Miami sent nothing but crap offers

Miami's offer was literally the best offer on the table until Giannis low key threatened to leave, so I don't think it was really in the Heat's best interests to negotiate against themselves.

And the Heats offer was dog shit.

I feel like you are really overrating Herro here. He was never going to Miami with the deal they had. Same wasnt going to sit out because of the new rules, it would have cost him upwards of 30 million dollars in fines if he sat longer than 2 weeks.

Eh, Herro is a full ten years younger than Holiday, and he's a good scorer. I don't think Milwaukee can outdo that deal without bringing in Phoenix because Miami could also offer more picks.

Miami dragged their feet because they assumed they were the only game in town. If they found a third team to sweeten the deal, they could've gotten Lillard, but they didn't think anyone else was going to step in until it was too late. They definitely blew this deal.

I'm not a fan of player trade demands in general, but definitely with specific destinations in mind. If you, especially as a player who would be in high demand, want to have maximum flexibility over who you play for, take less and play under one year deals. Lillard deserves to catch some flack for how this all played out.

Playing on one year deals is a really bad business model, so there's no reason Lillard should do that.

The Heat blew the deal by not offering Bam. If they weren't willing to offer him too the deal was always going to require a third team. Blazers didn't need Herro, and even if they got him and flipped him his value isn't the same as Holiday who is a 5x all defensive player, x3 1st all NBA defense vs a guy who is younger, sure, but coming off an injury.

If the Bucks didn't swoop in I'm 100% sure the Blazers just hang on to Dame until the trade deadline.

Like I said earlier, no one is to blame here except for the precedent of sending stars to their preferred destinations. At the end of the day it's still a business, and the players are the employees. This trade allowed Portland to get a bunch of young dudes who can already play on top of a bunch of future pick(s) capitol to either use in the future, or to trade for more assets. I don't think the Heat could have done anything at all unless they gave up Bam which they clearly weren't willing to do.

It's wild to me to see someone advocate for players intentionally making terrible deals for themselves while defending front offices for refusing to settle for bad deals

You seem really pressed that he didn't end up on the Heat. Their offer was dog shit, bar none. Dame is a top 10 player in the league coming off his best season ever, and you think it gets done with Herro and some picks? That's laughable. The bucks offer is inarguably better.

I don't care that he didn't end up on the Heat. I just think it's dumb to act like Dame is in the wrong at all. He gave Portland the best years of his career without complaint while they constantly gave him very little, but now that he finally decides he wants out, he's the bad guy. The players should be loyal, but for the front office, it's just business. I don't like that mindset.

And while Dame is great, he's almost 34 and is still owed 200 million dollars. That would probably be why Miami wasn't willing to give up the farm for him.

Leonhart4 posted...

I just think it's dumb to act like Dame is in the wrong at all. He gave Portland the best years of his career without complaint while they constantly gave him very little, but now that he finally decides he wants out, he's the bad guy. It's dumb

Got it. I agree. It is dumb, but like I get it's a players league, and always will be, but the demands of players to say " I want to go here " is out of control. The Blazers did him dirty by being a shit organization for the past 10 years and that's not in Dame's control. Blazers get blame for that for sure, but this whole trade saga the team still needs to look at its best interests too.

Like who are the most loyal players right now? Giannis has been with the Bucks for 11 years, Booker played through all the horrible years in PHX, and is now getting a chance to compete for real the past couple of years, and this year and as far as I know has no plans to ever leave. You mentioned that Giannis threatening to leave if he doesn't get winners around so there is a possibility that Giannis bolts if this Dame situation doesn't work out. All I'm saying is that player loyalty to your franchise...is dumb? Makes you look like a great guy sure, and I am super appreciative of the years Booker has gave me as a Suns fan, and would be heart broken if he ever bolted or got traded, but at the same time the organization still need to make the best moves for their future too.

So I guess the Portland is to blame for wasting Dame's talents, but he is ending up in not his ideal situation, but he is ending up in a situation where you can at least compete for a championship.

I do think Lillard ended up in the situation that gives him the best chance to win right now, so it worked out for him in that regard.

I think what Harden and Kyrie do on a nearly annual basis is bad because they drag their franchises through the mud to get their way. What Lillard did is fairly benign by comparison.

Leonhart4 posted...

I think what Harden and Kyrie do on a nearly annual basis is bad because they drag their franchises through the mud to get their way. What Lillard did is fairly benign by comparison.

100%

Not a fan of either guy. By all accounts Dame is a class act. Also I think because of guys like Harden and Kyrie who just become "cancers" is why I'm so against organizations giving in to their demands. I know I mentioned KD earlier too, but he didn't raise as much as a fuss as these guys, and the Nets still got a pretty solid deal out of PHX, I think people just underrated Cam and Mikal and didn't realize how good they could be.

Also it's been confirmed by the man himself that Ayton wanted out of PHX. Said it during his presser. I mean not shocking at all, but good to see his confirmations of not being happy in Phoenix was true. Still not entirely happy with the haul, but Booker should have a career year this year with this current roster set up. Someone either it's KD, Booker or Beal are always going to be open on the floor, and they can do minute management a lot better in the playoffs because they don't need all three on the floor all the time.

if celtics can stay healthy i am very excited

Leonhart4 posted...

Nah, don't put this all on Dame. Reportedly when it was clear he wasn't going to Miami, he said he wanted to stay in Portland, and he was told it was too late for that. Portland did him dirty by blatantly refusing to do business with his preferred destination, regardless of whether you think Miami's offer was good or not. They weren't sending him there.

Also I don't want to hear that "Herro didn't fit" what the Blazers wanted to do. Then just flip him like you just did with Holiday. You could have gotten a good return on Herro, too. They just didn't want to send Dame where he wanted to go, so I don't want to hear that he's the bad guy here.

If anything, the problem is that Dame wasn't willing to be more of a bad guy and a bully because he didn't want to alienate himself from the Portland fanbase. Portland called his bluff, and he folded.

Hard disagree with this, I don't think any GM will do something like that out of spite. The fact is that they got more than the heat could reasonably offer.

There is 0 chance they get for herro what they got for jrue

I think you give GMs too much credit if you think they're above stuff like that

Leonhart4 posted...

I think you give GMs too much credit if you think they're above stuff like that

Perhaps, but I don't tgink correlation equals causation here. They got a better deal than Miami offered. That doesn't automatically mean they were never going to deal with Miami, generally it means Miami didn't make a good offer. Which is dames fault.

Asking for a trade is fine. Giving 1 preferred destination and having your agent tell other teams you won't report if they trade for you is not fine. Dame was obviously a loyal soldier for many years but asking the team to do right by you whilst sabotaging your trade value is horse shit.

Also the team still did right by him by sending him to a great situation

They also need to change the supermax rules so players can't have their cake and eat it. It can't be offered by other teams and is supposed to be incentive to stick with the team that drafted you. Taking the supermax then asking out just bypasses the whole point of it. If you're on a supermax and ask for a trade, you should drop back to the non bird rights max on your new team. There's cap issues with that which would need to be worked out (i.e. make it still count as a supermax against the cap for the new team) but the player shouldn't keep getting the supermax amount if they put in a trade request. This is less about Dame and more just guys in general asking out whilst on supermax deals

Devin Vassell gets a 5/146 rookie extension from spurs

Jimmy trying to make me like him. This must stop.

v_charon posted...

Jimmy trying to make me like him. This must stop.

He did this during media day last year with the giant fake dreadlocks. He wants them to have to use a picture of him with ridiculous hair whenever they display his profile during games, and it's such a great troll job.

Also one more thing on Lillard and I'll be done. Regarding him "sabotaging his trade value," he isn't obligated to help Portland maximize their return any more than they're obligated to send him where he wants.

If anything, it benefits him to lower his trade value because his eventual destination will be better off if they have to give up less to acquire him.

Leonhart4 posted...

Also one more thing on Lillard and I'll be done. Regarding him "sabotaging his trade value," he isn't obligated to help Portland maximize their return any more than they're obligated to send him where he wants.

If anything, it benefits him to lower his trade value because his eventual destination will be better off if they have to give up less to acquire him.

I mean, it's a double edged sword. In theory that could happen sure. But we have seen what happens when the coin lands on the other side. If the franchise calls the bluff then the player is boned.

Portland did call Dame's bluff, and it worked out okay for both of them, I think.

I do wonder if Lillard is quite as willing to yield if he's traded to Toronto, which was the rumored new destination before the Bucks swooped in.

I mean, if by yield you're referring to his last second rescinding of his request, I don't think that means anything. By that point portland had been resolute that they werne't accepting the heat's package as presented, and dame had already been reprimanded by the NBA that "You had better play for whatever team has you", so whether he rescinds that request or not based on him going to toronto than milwaukee, I don't think that made a difference.

I mean yield as in reporting to Milwaukee without complaint

He probably suffers through Toronto too because deep down he is a nice guy

Leonhart4 posted...

Also one more thing on Lillard and I'll be done. Regarding him "sabotaging his trade value," he isn't obligated to help Portland maximize their return any more than they're obligated to send him where he wants.

If anything, it benefits him to lower his trade value because his eventual destination will be better off if they have to give up less to acquire him.

He's obligated to report for whatever team he's traded to per his contract and the CBA. So I don't think the two things are in the same ballpark.

The team is playing by the rules that were agreed to by both teams and players. Whilst the player and his agent are not.

Player don't get to agree to the massive beneficial perks of fully guaranteed contracts and then cry foul about the negative side (i.e. your destination is out of your hands except for no trade clauses and free agency)

Yeah, I don't think dame is a bad person by any means. I just think he acted unprofessionally.

He probably reports no matter who trades for him because the NBA told him to. We've seen what happened with simmons, they can withhold your pay and your year on the contract if you hold out. I suspect harden will be coming around before too long as well (The NBA told him the same thing and I assume they will get involved if they suspect him of not giving his full effort).

Yeah, really Dame is the victim of a long line of stars fucking it up for everyone else in recent years with their shitty behavior in regards to contracts and trade requests. Eventually it isn't going to all go the players way and there's going to be repercussions

Leonhart4 posted...

He did this during media day last year with the giant fake dreadlocks. He wants them to have to use a picture of him with ridiculous hair whenever they display his profile during games, and it's such a great troll job.

I honestly had no idea that was the case I thought he legit had dreadlocks lmao.

Part of the problem for some of these players is that the only way for them to get out of a bad situation is to make a public stink. You can call it unprofessional (in the cases of Kyrie, Simmons, and Harden, I'd absolutely agree), but they're also kinda stuck between suffering in a bad situation or looking like the bad guy in order to get out of it.

Lillard deserves better than to spend the rest of his career on a team that wasn't trying to win, but they weren't going to get rid of him unless he forced their hand.

Leonhart4 posted...

Part of the problem for some of these players is that the only way for them to get out of a bad situation is to make a public stink. You can call it unprofessional (in the cases of Kyrie, Simmons, and Harden, I'd absolutely agree), but they're also kinda stuck between suffering in a bad situation or looking like the bad guy in order to get out of it.

Lillard deserves better than to spend the rest of his career on a team that wasn't trying to win, but they weren't going to get rid of him unless he forced their hand.

Then he shouldn't have signed the extension. He had years of precedent that the blazers hadn't been able to make it happen before he signed it, if he had doubts then he shouldnt' have re-upped with them. But I do not find it acceptable that the mindset is "Well I'll sign it and get my money, and then I can force a trade if things go south." That's just not how I want it to work.

If I recall correctly, he didn't even give the blazers a reasonable amount of time before he started going on the way he did. Like, at least ask and give them time to survey the land, and actually negotiate with the heat. But it was trade request, then boom "Hey other teams, don't trade for me." That's not acceptable. I don't believe that players, even franchise ones, deserve both the monetary security of an extension and the freedom to choose where they want to go mid contract.

Leonhart4 posted...

Part of the problem for some of these players is that the only way for them to get out of a bad situation is to make a public stink. You can call it unprofessional (in the cases of Kyrie, Simmons, and Harden, I'd absolutely agree), but they're also kinda stuck between suffering in a bad situation or looking like the bad guy in order to get out of it.

Lillard deserves better than to spend the rest of his career on a team that wasn't trying to win, but they weren't going to get rid of him unless he forced their hand.

He should not have signed a contract with a mediocre Western Conference team if he wanted to play in Miami.

Another way to put it is Lillard wanted people making a lot less than him to risk their careers to make him happy.

Why should someone have to risk their career for a much wealthier guy who only wants to be there if it gets his ass kissed?

Because I think Lillard actually wanted to be there when he signed the extension. The dude genuinely seems to love the fanbase there. I just think he finally got tired of being in a dead end situation, and it didn't seem like it was getting better anytime soon.

We just expect players to suck it up and deal with it because they're being paid so much, but the Portland GM or coach could leave for another team anytime he wants if they offered him a job, or the team can get rid of the players if they feel like it. It's just the players who get stuck because of the contract.

tough imo. Like I said I'm okay with requests. But they are just that, requests. Demands are too much for me.

Like if the difference between dame and harden iyo is "harden is a noted buttmunch while dame has always been a good soldier" I just don't care about that at all, which is where we differ I guess. But fundamentally they both have tried/forced their way off teams by getting nasty with ownership and the front office.

Leonhart4 posted...

Because I think Lillard actually wanted to be there when he signed the extension. The dude genuinely seems to love the fanbase there. I just think he finally got tired of being in a dead end situation, and it didn't seem like it was getting better anytime soon.

We just expect players to suck it up and deal with it because they're being paid so much, but the Portland GM or coach could leave for another team anytime he wants if they offered him a job, or the team can get rid of the players if they feel like it. It's just the players who get stuck because of the contract.

I don't think that the coach/GM making several mil per year and the player making dozens of mil per year is comparable. When you make the kind of money that the players do, there are sacrifices and I think that is fair.