Board 8 > 2023-2024 NBA Topic 1

(+) Yeah! (+)

I wouldn't even consider what Lillard did to be "nasty" unless you just feel bad that he made the front office's job too hard.

Emeraldegg posted...

I don't think that the coach/GM making several mil per year and the player making dozens of mil per year is comparable. When you make the kind of money that the players do, there are sacrifices and I think that is fair.

The amount of money doesn't matter because people get up in arms now that college players are doing it too

Leonhart4 posted...

Because I think Lillard actually wanted to be there when he signed the extension. The dude genuinely seems to love the fanbase there. I just think he finally got tired of being in a dead end situation, and it didn't seem like it was getting better anytime soon.

We just expect players to suck it up and deal with it because they're being paid so much, but the Portland GM or coach could leave for another team anytime he wants if they offered him a job, or the team can get rid of the players if they feel like it. It's just the players who get stuck because of the contract.

That's not true at all. You can't just quit one front office job to move to another. There's a process involved which may or may not involve compensation. Like the Magic had to give up compensation when they hired their current front office

And it's that way because of guaranteed contracts. A team can't just get rid of a player because they feel like it. They have to find a trade partner or eat the dead money hit. If a player has an albatross of a contract that they aren't performing to, a team can't just say well we don't want to be stuck with this player anymore and get out of the deal for free.

If a player wants true freedom then they can negotiate 1+1 deals with a player option on the second year. Which is what some stars have been doing.

I admit I oversimplified things, but it's easier for non-players to move than players.

Shattered posted...

If a player wants true freedom then they can negotiate 1+1 deals with a player option on the second year. Which is what some stars have been doing.

I think it works for the true superstars who will be in demand no matter what, even if they get injured (like LeBron or KD back in the day). That gets riskier as you get older.

But really we should all aspire to be John Wall, paid 40+ million to be told to stay home and not play by the Rockets for nearly two seasons

Leonhart4 posted...

I wouldn't even consider what Lillard did to be "nasty" unless you just feel bad that he made the front office's job too hard.

I consider the front office's job as important too, so yeah I do.

I don't eve think what the blazers have done is particularly egregious in terms of team building. Nurkic and mccollum were good players and with nurkic on the way down, simons is on the way up. I have to assume they tried trading the #3 pick and simply could not find any suitors. Dame himself missed tons of time over the past couple of seasons, there are tangible reasons why the blazers have underperformed besides "Wow the blazers just suck the most ass at everything like the angels in baseball." It's not their fault that LA and NY are super popular free agent destinations where they can ask lebron to go there and he will, and boom you have a superteam. They even overpaid jerami grant just to try and convince dame to stay, which by the way I still have issue that he waited till after they did that to ask out, even though they already drafted scoot by that point.

The bottom line for me is, I don't think the player should have power over the franchise. The franchise's duty is to pay the player, and the blazers fulfilled that. The player has a responsibility to be comfortable with the contract they are signing and the full implications of it. He signed his 2 year deal last year, when things were laready going squirrely, he could've been out by 24-25 if he had not done that. But he did, so I don't care about what he wants. He has done it to himself by signing the contract with full knowledge of what it entailed. That he expected he could just force his way out at any time is a him problem, not a blazers or anyone else problem. The worst thing I think of is that they hired billups and dame himself endorsed that move. So they don't deserve to be put on blast for that considering they did that to placate dame.

The Knicks are still out there convincing people they're a free agent destination huh

Leonhart4 posted...

The Knicks are still out there convincing people they're a free agent destination huh

I was referring to the nets

The problem is that supermax deals get signed nowadays with the full knowledge of 'I can force my way out at any point if I want'.

But they can't make them harder to get out of because they are supposed to be an incentive to sign with the home team. They really just need financial implications for forcing your way out so that you have to actively choose to take a paycut to get out rather than getting your home town contract deal and also getting to go to a different location

Honestly I don't think the supermax is the issue, it's just that more teams need to stand up to the players. For the bucks at least it makes sense since they are an actual good team with a superstar instead of a team on life support, but they are still somewhat culpable here as a recent example.

If more teams tell players "Hey if you want a trade we'll try, but it's possible it won't happen, if that happens sorry not sorry" then I think this will correct itself over time.

Having a supermax on the roster financially cripples you cap wise and increases the chance of you becoming a non contending team though

Shattered posted...

The problem is that supermax deals get signed nowadays with the full knowledge of 'I can force my way out at any point if I want'.

But they can't make them harder to get out of because they are supposed to be an incentive to sign with the home team. They really just need financial implications for forcing your way out so that you have to actively choose to take a paycut to get out rather than getting your home town contract deal and also getting to go to a different location

I agree part of the problem is that players have seen that it's the only thing that "works."

Shattered posted...

Having a supermax on the roster financially cripples you cap wise and increases the chance of you becoming a non contending team though

I think we had this debate once before but ultimately it is an owner issue. If you draft the talent, you can technically afford to have them for however long you want.

Emeraldegg posted...

I think we had this debate once before but ultimately it is an owner issue. If you draft the talent, you can technically afford to have them for however long you want.

Yes and no. The repercussions have become harsher which really limits what a team can do once they are into the luxury tax. And whilst drafting everyone and paying them gets around this, that's purely theoretical as contending teams trade their picks for players that help them win now. And if you try do it via the draft, timelines don't mesh well enough to make it work.

Restrictions yes, but if you already have 2 supermax caliber players on your roster you're already most of the way there. If you have other good homegrown talent on top of that that would push you into the luxury tax, chances are you probably don't need the things that you are restricted from doing, like getting your MLE.

Like if these restrictions had been in place 5 years ago, golden state would care exactly 0 even as they blow past hte new 2nd apron. I don't think most teams in the lux are going to be getting to the 2nd apron specifically anyway. IIRC just being at the first apron doesn't terribly restrict a team.

It may be smart for Dame to tank his value so that Miami doesn't have to give up as much, but that's a problem for the NBA. It's unfair to Portland and unfair to contending teams. I won't really dig into the morals too much, but I will say that every team should have a problem with it and the NBA will have to crack down or step in.

Sure Dame signed the contract extension. But Portland doesn't seem like they were trying to build a championship team. So to me, there's a little bit of "so what?" if he screws Portland. His extension doesn't kick in until 2025-2026. He probably also didn't know that Portland was going to give up when the Pelicans pick didn't convey.

They tried and they failed but that's not the same as just straight up not trying. They thought mccollum would be an ideal 1/2 punch, they were not, they did not think nurkic would end up such a liability. But you don't trade for a guy like jerami grant if you just aren't even trying.

So uh, Miami standing mostly pat, does this Jimmy/Bam/Herro team make the playoffs?
No idea how good they are without Lillard.

They still make the playoffs, dont know about a finals run tho.

I think they make the playoffs. The young guys they drafted will probably be able to contribute in some small way. Also I fully expect them to try and offload duncan for a useful piece

Leonhart4 posted...

Nah, don't put this all on Dame. Reportedly when it was clear he wasn't going to Miami, he said he wanted to stay in Portland, and he was told it was too late for that. Portland did him dirty by blatantly refusing to do business with his preferred destination, regardless of whether you think Miami's offer was good or not. They weren't sending him there.

Also I don't want to hear that "Herro didn't fit" what the Blazers wanted to do. Then just flip him like you just did with Holiday. You could have gotten a good return on Herro, too. They just didn't want to send Dame where he wanted to go, so I don't want to hear that he's the bad guy here.

If anything, the problem is that Dame wasn't willing to be more of a bad guy and a bully because he didn't want to alienate himself from the Portland fanbase. Portland called his bluff, and he folded.

i disagree wholly with this. herro is a dime a dozen type, there are loads of guards that can get around 20 ppg but can't play defense. that is much harder to find than a legit two way guard who has a championship pedigree and is on an expiring contract. herro isn't a bad player by any means, but him making 30 million a year makes his contract a negative asset and the blazers have loads of guards and there is no reason to think they would be any more successful in trading him than miami has been considering miami has been trying to trade him for two years.

portland would have absolutely dealt with the heat if they had made a serious offer, but they reportedly never did out of arrogance that they were bidding against themselves. none of miami's assets were anything the blazers were interested in, they would have needed a third team like the bucks found.

the trade made the bucks better in the short and longterm but most importantly for them it will make giannis happy and almost certainly make him willing to resign considering dame seems to have been the main guy he wanted to team up with lately.

it worked out great for the blazers because they were able to get a good big who wanted a new situation and loads of assets they have and will be able to continue flipping for more stuff for their rebuild. they have a bright future imo

the suns didn't get better on paper but they got rid of the disgruntled player they have been trying to shop for two years and they absolutely added valuable depth that they desperately needed. i think in practice the suns are better now, especially if they can keep nurkic healthy.

the celtics also inadvertently (from the bucks perspective) improved considerably by trading for jrue. they now have a proven champion to run the point after getting rid of smart and they somehow massively upgraded at pg while also bringing in a good veteran/leader after they got rid of smart for porzingis. them losing timelord definitely isn't optimal, but overall i think they definitely improved and are my pick in the east despite losing two solid defensive players. even if jrue can't score at the same clip he could a few years ago the leadership and being the defensive anchor in the backcourt will be super valuable.

i think it is obviously a four team race between celtics/bucks and nuggets/suns assuming everyone stays healthy

poor Miami, now they just have to wait until Embiid wants out of Philly to try to land the next disgruntled star

i have no issue with dame demanding a trade and i don't even have an issue with him listing a handful of teams he wants to be shipped to, but demanding only one situation just isn't realistic in most scenarios and would ensure the team doesn't get value if they only consider one offer. i think the organization did right by him by sending him to a top 4 team in the league with an unquestionable top 2 player to pair with.

Shattered posted...

If a player wants true freedom then they can negotiate 1+1 deals with a player option on the second year. Which is what some stars have been doing.

or find an organization dumb enough to give them a no trade clause like beal got from the wizards. the wizards deserved to be fleeced since they gave up a no trade clause for literally no reason at all

andel posted...

the trade made the bucks better in the short and longterm but most importantly for them it will make giannis happy and almost certainly make him willing to resign considering dame seems to have been the main guy he wanted to team up with lately.

This is the only thing I hesitate to agree with in this post. Stars have been getting more and more mercurial, and giannis already put the squeeze on milwaukee after already winning a title. If they don't win another in the next 2 years, dame or no dame I'm not convinced he will extend because the bucks won't have the stuff to keep a competent core around giannis. Dame will almost certainly be declining by then, Middleton already has been a bit, lopez is old. They traded most if not all of their picks. This is it for them I think.

Less Dame. More JIMMY

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/7/6/0/AAaTquAAE5LI.jpg

Yeah, if the Bucks don't at least make it to another Finals with this team, I think Giannis probably leaves.

I see we are back to the "Ben simmons is in the best shape of his life" segment of the offseason. He hit 10 FTs in a row at practice, WOW

People still want to believe Ben Simmons is good

Let me know when he wants to take those shots in a real game

andel posted...

the trade made the bucks better in the short and longterm but most importantly for them it will make giannis happy and almost certainly make him willing to resign considering dame seems to have been the main guy he wanted to team up with lately.

the team can't defend the outside. they'll have to outscore every team. I feel like it might be a wash for milwaukee.

colliding posted...

the team can't defend the outside. they'll have to outscore every team. I feel like it might be a wash for milwaukee.

They'll be able to! I think people lose sight (rightfully so, considering how short it was) that when the nets actually had harden/kyrie/KD all playing together, that team was grade a whoop-ass even though they had the same criticism of no defense. All you have to do is be able to defend even on a passable level, and giannis/lopez on the inside will give them enough of a buffer to give up stuff on the outside imo

I dont think anyone is matching PHX offensive output tbh. Dont know how good their defense will be but Ill be shocked if they arent the highest scoring team this year.

It's okay. Most of the top teams have gotten worse defensively or basically stayed the same, so the Bucks should be fine.

Pistons are 100% just banking on Cade being healthy + other guys improving on their 2nd and 3rd years + bringing in Monty Williams as coach to be enough to get a play in spot

https://x.com/esidery/status/1709656267378098351?s=46&t=-3fPWNdiVc69jSwjphxsiQ

one will live

the other will die

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3q3ZoJyirw

I'm ready to see these crimes against basketball

https://twitter.com/woodwardsports/status/1711069597854486664

Future Piston Devin Booker

Suns offense smooth as butter. Looked insane with Booker, Beal, and KD on the floor.

Mavs lose to Real Madrid, lol.

Not as funny as when the Suns lost to the Adelaide 36ers last year, but still. Portland could still drop to New Zealand too.

Miles Bridges already violated his DV probation and has a warrant

Please just get rid of him, PLEASE

Yeah, he should have never came back, but the NBA, or sports in general doesn't have the best track record when it comes to this shit.

Might be because I'm a homer, and I'm reading too much into the pre-season, but the Suns depth is remarkably much better than last year. The second unit looked really good against essentially the starting team for Denver in the first half last night.

I'm drinking the kool-aid.

Pistons should look into acquiring Bridges on a steep discount

Dillon Brooks being ejected 5 minutes into his first game is pretty hilarious.

Following their first preseason game earlier this week looks like coach Monty is aiming for the Pistons starting line up to actually be

Cade
Ausar
Bojan
Beef Stew
Duren

With Ivey being the first off the bench. Oh my

While many celebrate the victory of management putting labor back in its place, James Harden is just like, "LOL watch this"

Rockets finally offloaded porter for a couple of 2nds.

Also where do you all stand on detroit vs orlando as far as development goes? Lots of people I think are saying the magic are better set up than detroit and I just don't see it.

I'm obviously biased but I think the Magic are.

Even if you have no faith in the Magic guards (which as an outsider is fair, but I think guys will be surprised this season), the Magic have one of the best young wing combos in the league. The league is guard heavy but finding long, versatile, playmaking wings who can also defend is difficult. And the Magic have 2 of the best ones on their rookie contracts.

Also the Magic basically have a bottomless pit of money to throw around if they want because their starting 3/4/5 are so cheap and are the long-term solution whilst they also have no money tied up elsewhere.

So even if you think their guards are worth nothing and you have to start over fresh at the position, they have both the money and assets to go get 2 max guys at the 1/2 via trade/FA if they wanted.

Edit: Like say star player X became available. The Magic can theoretically offer all their 1sts plus multiple lotto picks on rookie deals (Suggs, Anthony, Black, Howard) plus vets / salary filler (Fultz, Harris, Isaac). Which is going to be up there with what anyone else in the league can offer. And then they can still go out and get a max guy in FA too.

Franz and Banchero are already better than anyone on the Pistons and I don't think the theoretical ceiling of ceilings for Cade or Ausar are so far above theirs that I would use them as an argument in Detroit's favor.

I'm high on the Magic's other pieces as well. It's a reasonable discussion but I'm definitely more confident in Orlando's future as of today.

I put it in an edit but the Magic are also well positioned to go all in on a trade too.

Like say if a disgruntled star player becomes available. Pulling names out of my ass but say Doncic asks out (but it can be whoever). The Magic can offer

4 1sts
3 pick swaps
Multiple high lotto guys on rookie deals (Suggs, Anthony, Black, Howard)
Veterans (some with potential upside) / Salary filler (Fultz, Isaac, Harris)

Not many others can match that level of return (OKC and their gazillion picks comes to mind).

And then they could still go out and offer a max in FA.