Board 8 > MCU General 6 - Into the Mad Multiverse we go!

(+) Yeah! (+)

God what a hypocrite

I'm the argumentative gimmick okay HanOfTheNitpick

OMG, it's literally at the beginning? He's been fucking lying the entire time? That's amazing.

You're only impressing yourself scarlet

There is a difference between showing and telling. Particularly when the significance of what you're telling isnt explained in the movie

Anyone who understands fiction gets that

You've spent too much time reading poorly written comic books

Have we reached the point where we can all kiss and makeup yet?

UltimaterializerX posted...

The MCU stopped caring about first time viewers a long time ago. I feel this is a poor point to bring up at all.

This is ultimately it, yeah.

And the thing is, this all generated from LinkMarioSamus saying "Black Widow was bad because it tried too hard to tie-in with the MCU". And it just really didn't, lol

Despite the lie, I do want to share my probably poorly explained comic book approach to the movies again.

Lopen, you didn't even finish the movie. And not that it stops your complete misunderstanding of the top of the movie apparently from being valid, but it certainly invalidates my need to think your position has any more merit than Joe Blow on the street because no one explained the Civil War in Lincoln for the casual observer. And believe you me, there are hundreds of countries filled with people who don't know shit about the American Civil War. The history of the MCU is equally as ingrained to the nature of the MCU as American history is to Lincoln. Or a more niche discussion would be this - El Camino REQUIRES viewership of Breaking Bad.

You continue to equate the Sokovia Accords to things like Dr. Strange. You're right that knowing who Doctor Strange isn't required in No Way Home. But that's not a fair equivocation. Because Dr. Strange isn't complex in any presentation, and you witness who he is by virtue of the film. A better relationship is El Camino piggybacking off of Breaking Bad without explanation. The intent is not to cater to an audience of Lopens, but an audience of hardcore fans of the products which came before. Again, this is a comic book universe.

Sure, you could say, "That's not the target audience," but you're also not the target audience. The target audience of X-Men #117 is not a new reader. It's the reader of X-Men #116, 115, 114. Earlier, you made some cockamamie argument about how a TV show should enjoyable to a new viewer, no matter what, and I disagree completely. Their are different modes of television presentation, and Game of Thrones Season 3 might demonstrate strong fundamentals, but it certainly doesn't hold your hand in explanation of what came before. It asks its viewers to be attentive in the content that came before.

I think ultimately, my argument about Black Widow that I was trying to make is that as time has gone on, Black Widow, like every MCU movie, doesn't stand on its own anymore BECAUSE it's like reading and issue of a comic book. For me, I can't get as worked up about. This happened to me with Stars Wars Episode IX once Mandalorian and Boba Fett began, because it just feels like one piece in a larger sea of a greater property - and as such, its impact becomes less and less. I think that goes both ways, in that rewatching Episode IV recently, I was shocked at how much less it meant in terms of what I loved about it - I just knew it was a piece of one thing movie forward. I've started to think of Star Wars as "Star Wars", and all of its various individual pieces don't carry the same emotional attachment anymore, much like in a comic book universe. I just don't care about Amazing Fantasy #15. I care about Spider-Man. What's interesting is that you start to paint your own picture of a character of the years, and the bad Spider-Man stories you just excise from your mind, the more you have. Clone Saga, One More Day, anything that was drawn by Todd McFarlane (because the writing was never good).

Anyways, I'll just drop this steaming pile of shit here and move on, and I'll let Lasa lambast me for it because I've got some work to do.

scarletspeed7 posted...

Black Widow, like every MCU movie, doesn't stand on its own anymore BECAUSE it's like reading and issue of a comic book

It isn't. My entire point is it isn't

And it's all in the significance of the details in driving what's going on

You cannot or will not understand that, and that's fine. You comparing them to "an issue of a comic book" is incorrect. You'd be closer to accurate if you compared them to a trade-- I've read my share of trades and they tend to be fairly easy to follow in stand alone form as compared to comics because the start and end are chosen well-- much like an MCU movie

UltimaterializerX posted...

The MCU stopped caring about first time viewers a long time ago. I feel this is a poor point to bring up at all.

I strongly disagree with this, theyre definitely still working on trying to get first time viewers or rehook older watchers. They wouldnt be working to build a more diverse group of heroes (Shang-Chi/Eternals/Ms. Marvel) trying more mature characters (I feel like Moon Knight will be there? These shows are pretty mature theme wise too in all honesty) or making new ones otherwise. I doubt they are comfortable with barely breaking a 22 year old box office record that doesnt even adjust for inflation otherwise.

Also on a side note I felt Shang-Chi was easy to understand and you dont need to watch other MCU for it (but you can watch Iron Man 3 and Doctor Strange to appreciate all the characters anyway)

or decade old lol I forgot about Avatar

nevermind my previous post, i think gamefaqs was glitching and not showing posts for me or something

I would never block you! As much as I sometime give you grief, you have really insightful analyses sometimes. And I appreciate someone like you challenging my opinion. My first encounter with you was just a bad first step, and I was pretty defensive of Gauntlet Crew back in the day. It's certainly not how I feel now.

But Truffaut's Law will never not be a little funny to me.

scarletspeed7 posted...

I would never block you! As much as I sometime give you grief, you have really insightful analyses sometimes. And I appreciate someone like you challenging my opinion.

thanks for the kind words.

But Truffaut's Law will never not be a little funny to me.

i will always keep defending that post!!

oh i get it now, ulti (who does have me blocked) showed up and scarlet responded to one of his posts.

LiquidOshawott posted...

I strongly disagree with this, theyre definitely still working on trying to get first time viewers or rehook older watchers. They wouldnt be working to build a more diverse group of heroes (Shang-Chi/Eternals/Ms. Marvel) trying more mature characters (I feel like Moon Knight will be there? These shows are pretty mature theme wise too in all honesty) or making new ones otherwise. I doubt they are comfortable with barely breaking a 22 year old box office record that doesnt even adjust for inflation otherwise.

Also on a side note I felt Shang-Chi was easy to understand and you dont need to watch other MCU for it (but you can watch Iron Man 3 and Doctor Strange to appreciate all the characters anyway)

Shang-Chi was good and did manage to set itself up as an independent film. Just like NWH was a film that did well where the viewer was asked to have familiarity, or at least passing knowledge, with 3 different eras of Spider-Man films.
Thing is, Shang-Chi will be a part of the MCU moving forward, so though it starts from a place of relative neutrality, it will likely be firmly intertwined moving forward. It already sort of is, from end credits scene.

Black Widow was always in a weird place as a movie because it had to be a midquel. I mean, they could have gone further into the past and done the Budapest stuff with Clint (which likely would've been a much better movie), but then they'd not have gotten to achieve their primary goal - introduce Yelena. But also, since it was a midquel, nothing they did in the movie could really have any effect on any film already made, so it just ended up being a relative dud.

No, I did and was just stating MCU was still trying to get new viewers

I'm not sure what that "No, I did" is directly in response to, but you make a fair point.

I think it might be more accurate to say that they aren't primarily targeting new viewers, and don't care about hand-holding new viewers, since unfamiliarity with the franchise as a whole is a reason for people to subscribe to D+. If Shang-Chi pulls in new viewers, then the post-credits scene, use of Wong and Banner, etc, are reasons for people to get more involved in the franchise as a whole.

But even still, all of the TV shows thus far have been targeted at people already invested in the franchise.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

I'm not sure what that "No, I did" is directly in response to, but you make a fair point.

I think it might be more accurate to say that they aren't primarily targeting new viewers, and don't care about hand-holding new viewers, since unfamiliarity with the franchise as a whole is a reason for people to subscribe to D+. If Shang-Chi pulls in new viewers, then the post-credits scene, use of Wong and Banner, etc, are reasons for people to get more involved in the franchise as a whole.

But even still, all of the TV shows thus far have been targeted at people already invested in the franchise.

Oh I was talking to Lasa asking if scarlet quoted Ulti.

anyway to respond I feel like Black Widow is still ok, I can think of 5 MCU films that are worse and even those are watchable. I feel like the timing probably hurt because it was kinda a lame duck since we knew so much about her to begin with but as a action movie its fine

I think the shows are mostly targeted towards slightly older audiences, could just be the TV-14 nature or the themes involved (Wandavisions adaption to loss, Falcons racial relations in the US). And at the very least you have some luxury in being able to easily access old resources to reacquaint yourself with the material (AOU was constantly recommended after Wandavision, for example)

I think the biggest issue with Black Widow is its release date. I don't think it would be viewed as flawed as it is if it had just come out after Civil War like it was clearly meant to be.

LiquidOshawott posted...

No, I did and was just stating MCU was still trying to get new viewers

both of you guys did. scarlet responded to ulti in post #344, you did in #359.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

I think the biggest issue with Black Widow is its release date. I don't think it would be viewed as flawed as it is if it had just come out after Civil War like it was clearly meant to be.

If you do a Black Widow movie in that timeframe, then you probably actually relate it more to Civil War, rather than inventing a problem just to wipe it away.

But I think it would have done a lot better for characterizing Widow leading into Endgame. At that point, her being the one Avenger still trying to avenge is then bolstered by the motivation of trying to get her family back, and her sacrifice then parallels Clint's would-be sacrifice more. I think that also makes Clint's guilt more justifiable, in that case.

I didn't mean to say Black Widow is bad because it has to tie into the MCU, I more meant that the movie felt held down by it. I guess you could read those as the same thing but I didn't mean it that way. I think it could have been a solid spy thriller if it wasn't a midquel or ended with a typical Marvel climax. This kind of movie should not need $200 million to make.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

It didn't explain his background with Peter, and the stuff they went through together.

"We saved the world together... Call me Stephen."

FFDragon posted...

"We saved the world together... Call me Stephen."

In terms of details, I would say that's on par with "She's in violation of the Sokovia Accords. She assaulted the King of Wakanda."

HanOfTheNekos posted...

If you do a Black Widow movie in that timeframe, then you probably actually relate it more to Civil War, rather than inventing a problem just to wipe it away.

But I think it would have done a lot better for characterizing Widow leading into Endgame. At that point, her being the one Avenger still trying to avenge is then bolstered by the motivation of trying to get her family back, and her sacrifice then parallels Clint's would-be sacrifice more. I think that also makes Clint's guilt more justifiable, in that case.

And those points would at the very least make it viewed in a more positive light, in my opinion.

Like as far as I am concerned, Black Widow was fine. I was mostly hyped for it because my daughter liked Black Widow and I was excited to take her to a Marvel movie she really wanted to see. So the quality of it didn't bother me as much as the fact that it just felt way too late for a Black Widow solo film.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

In terms of details, I would say that's on par with "She's in violation of the Sokovia Accords. She assaulted the King of Wakanda."

If anything, that line seems more descriptive than the other.

Right theres enough information there for the layman to google King of Wakanda if they wanted to know more about that plot.

I guess my core point is every MCU movie is watchable in a vacuum except Black Widow.

You can follow No Way Home without knowing who Dr Strange is or why he knows Peter. It is completely irrelevant-- the extent of detail provided in the dialogue is sufficient.

Black Widow feels like a string of random chases and fighting if you don't know the events of Civil War. What are the Sokovia Accords, who is The King of Wakanda is and when or why did she assault him. Etc etc. This would be a problem if it was released immediately after Civil War as well, just less glaring. Part of it is just that the reason for her being chased is pretty weak even if you know what they're talking about because it's all offscreen.

It's just bad writing. It's a disingenuous argument to compare the two. The same kind of argument I myself am (wrongly) accused of making designed to get a rise out of people and made in poor faith, which got me pretty angry since hypocrisy is a peeve of mine.

Like if you can't see the difference between Dr Strange's role in NWH and the plot of early movie Black Widow you seriously don't know why the MCU works. Point blank. If they were all structured like this I don't care how many cute quips they had they would have Avengers wouldn't have been the hit it was and the MCU would probably be long past done as a pop culture phenomenon by now. Why the MCU works is you don't need to watch all or even most of the entries to get whats going on. It's why people say "hey give me a list of essential viewing" and people can usually pare it down to like 20% of the titles-- and while Civil War is one of the more significant entires by and large you don't even need that one. Just watch all the Avengers movies and GotG1 and you're good really. That'll give you all the character intros and then you can just figure it out.

Lopen posted...

I guess my core point is every MCU movie is watchable in a vacuum except Black Widow.

You can't make this claim having only seen 20 minutes of the movie.

I don't fault you for stopping watching because you weren't into it, but the movie is not about her being on the run for the events of Civil War. By the 30 minute point, the Sokovia Accords are so far in the rearview mirror because it is firmly about Widow having hold of a MacGuffin and reuniting with her lost family - introduced for the first time at the beginning of the movie.

Lopen posted...

I guess my core point is every MCU movie is watchable in a vacuum except Black Widow.

You can follow No Way Home without knowing who Dr Strange is or why he knows Peter. It is completely irrelevant-- the extent of detail provided in the dialogue is sufficient.

Black Widow feels like a string of random chases and fighting if you don't know the events of Civil War. What are the Sokovia Accords, who is The King of Wakanda is and when or why did she assault him.

Yeah, I just don't really agree with this at all. "You broke X Accords by assaulting a King" seems very sufficient for understanding. You don't have to know what those things are, it's a blatant "You did this thing and now you're in trouble." I'd argue that's more sufficient than having no actual context for an entire character who is very important specifically to the plot, even. Neither breaks the movie at all to me, but it seems weird to single out Black Widow and claim it's unwatchable in a vacuum. Said hangup isn't even important for very long before the focus shifts.

You know there has been very little talk of the disastrous opening credits sequence that crawls for like four minutes straight with an equally disastrous cover playing over it.

Let's all come together briefly and bash that.

I think any movie that is junk for the first 40 minutes and explained entirely with offscreen stuff is bad and only the hubris of the MCU tie in let the movie have the audacity to try it is the point.

Make it COMPLETELY disconnected from the MCU and it probably starts a lot better.

Lopen posted...

I think any movie that is junk for the first 40 minutes and explained entirely with offscreen stuff is bad and only the hubris of the MCU tie in let the movie have the audacity to try it is the point.

Make it COMPLETELY disconnected from the MCU and it probably starts a lot better.

Wasn't it already explained to you that it is explained at the beginning and you were lying?

I think it'd be easier to just say you didn't like the movie, and a lot of people would agree with you, instead of stubbornly doubling and tripling and quadrupling down on a rather silly argument.

FFDragon posted...

You know there has been very little talk of the disastrous opening credits sequence that crawls for like four minutes straight with an equally disastrous cover playing over it.

Let's all come together briefly and bash that.

man between this and captain marvel they did Nirvana dirty

scarletspeed7 posted...

Wasn't it already explained to you that it is explained at the beginning and you were lying?

With offscreen stuff

Stop being a gimmick dude

Lopen posted...

With offscreen stuff

Stop being a gimmick dude

Which is almost every MCU movie. It does not stand out from the pack in the manner you're arguing it does.

There are no Marvel movies where the first 10 minutes of the plot is explained with a brief reference to another movie

Much less 40

I haven't read the whole argument but I don't believe you watched 40 minutes of the movie if you think that's the plot focus for that long.

Here, let me show you how it's done:

I think Black Widow is perfectly viewable in a vacuum, and is no more egregious about prior references than most other MCU movies.

But I also think Black Widow is a bad movie.

See? It's not hard.

StealThisSheen posted...

I haven't read the whole argument but I don't believe you watched 40 minutes of the movie if you think that's the plot focus for that long.

I was wondering if he thinks Taskmaster is hunting Widow because of the Accords.

Lopen posted...

There are no Marvel movies where the first 10 minutes of the plot is explained with a brief reference to another movie

Spider-Man Homecoming is pretty much this, considering it's fully just connecting his story to where he previously appeared.

TotallyNotMI posted...

I was wondering if he thinks Taskmaster is hunting Widow because of the Accords.

Maybe.

Like, it's basically window dressing that takes a back seat, kinda like how Ant-man is supposed to be on house arrest and his friends are fugitives for pretty much the same thing in Ant-man 2. It's such a weird thing to get stuck on.

This argument just proves Cap was right

Cap was always right.

FFDragon posted...

You know there has been very little talk of the disastrous opening credits sequence that crawls for like four minutes straight with an equally disastrous cover playing over it.

Let's all come together briefly and bash that.

I don't hate Black Widow but I thought I was going to when I saw that

Genuinely horrific and my #1 issue with the movie

TotallyNotMI posted...

I was wondering if he thinks Taskmaster is hunting Widow because of the Accords.

He may as well be given the amount of explanation the briefcase gets in the part of the movie I watched

I mean listen I'm just saying I got major Mortal Kombat Annihilation vibes from it in the part I watched and asked if the movie gets better, was told no, and was ready to go on my way

Then you have a bunch of people ragging on me saying the intro was the same as every Marvel movie but the movie is still bad somehow

Lopen posted...

Then you have a bunch of people ragging on me saying the intro was the same as every Marvel movie but the movie is still bad somehow

I mean, to be fair, they're not mutually exclusive. The movie can not have the issue you think it does as badly as you think it does, but still be a bad movie for other reasons.

So, who else is looking forward to Moon Knight? I know nothing about the character but based upon the trailer Im pretty hyped up.

Seanchan posted...

So, who else is looking forward to Moon Knight? I know nothing about the character but based upon the trailer Im pretty hyped up.

I'm very excited for it. I know very little about him but I love Oscar Isaac and the premise and ties to ancient Egypt.