Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 366: Neeran End to the Tandenic

(+) Yeah! (+)

god who gives a fuck if bernie would have won, what's important now is sticking to the message that any president should be willing to help get people out of poverty. Those who work a full time job should not be in poverty. period.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

https://twitter.com/kylekulinski/status/1365341696029044741?s=21

Honestly the one-two punch of reopening the exact same children-in-cages detainment facility they did photo ops at and bombing Iranians in Syria is just incredible for how indefensible it is.

Add-in no checks, no $15 minimum wage, the outright rejection of wiping away all student debt, etc, and Jesus Christ its an Awful Governance Done Quick speed run.

Someone tell me Im wrong.

Im not saying Trump would be better, Im asking why you were so convinced this is the best we could get, and how exactly do you think they hold control like this???

If the Dem base just lets this go by and doesnt start shouting as loud as the left, were gonna backslide to worse than Trump in no time

I need to look more into this, but the same "kids in cages" thing is not entirely accurate (I don't think at least based on the limited reporting I was reading yesterday). Trump was separating families at the boarder. Biden is specifically for unaccompanied minors. Children that do not cross the boarder with their family and need some place to stay until their families are located or until the US government can find an appropriate guardian. It makes far more sense to detain solo children than it does to pull them apart from families that come with them.

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FWIW, the Biden administration has been searching for the parents that Trump separated from their kids and IIRC they found over 100 in the first month alone.

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I haven't read much on it, so correct my ignorance please if needed. I am just reading the articles that were shared by Jamaal Bowman and others so I'm sure I'm missing important details.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/immigrant-children-camp-texas-biden/2021/02/22/05dfd58c-7533-11eb-8115-9ad5e9c02117_story.html

Government officials say the camp is needed because facilities for migrant children have had to cut capacity by nearly half because of the coronavirus pandemic. At the same time, the number of unaccompanied children crossing the border has been inching up, with January reporting the highest total more than 5,700 apprehensions for that month in recent years.

Last week, he and House Democrats introduced a plan that would provide a path to citizenship for 11 million undocumented immigrants. The administration also reversed some of Trumps expulsion practices by accepting unaccompanied children into the country, a change that also is contributing to an increase of minors in government facilities, officials said.

Like I'm 100% for OPEN BOARDER ANARCHY. I'm about as far left on immigration as you can get. But I also see the logic for holding onto children that come into the country unaccompanied until you can find safe housing for them. The reason they needed to open this facility is specifically because Biden is letting them into the country, unlike Trump who was just kicking them back out again.

Right? Again, please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

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Corrik7 posted...

You are talking out of your ass.

LOL ok

As far as separated children vs unaccompanied children, Trump had to stop separating children unnecessarily in 2018, and the photo ops outside this very same facility Im referring to happened in 2019.

Source: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2021/1/27/22252294/biden-zero-tolerance-family-separation-trump

So what exactly is the difference here? If Trump was holding unaccompanied kids in the exact same facility Biden just reopened to hold unaccompanied kids, is there an actual difference?

I understand the need for more space because of COVID, but whats the difference? Ive yet to see it!

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

LOL ok

As far as separated children vs unaccompanied children, Trump had to stop separating children unnecessarily in 2018, and the photo ops outside this very same facility Im referring to happened in 2019.

Source:

Nothing to do with what you said.

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The LOL ok is your response, the rest is to Suprak

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I mean finding the parents so them being there isn't the forever plan is a nice change.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

The LOL ok is your response, the rest is to Suprak

So you don't intend to defend your stance. Biden barely won, and he was far and away the most popular democratic candidate there was. And, was one of the only ones that could get people like me to vote for him over Trump.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

I mean finding the parents so them being there isn't the forever plan is a nice change.

Sure. Maybe we could go a step further, though, and not treat them like prisoners. And maybe we could not place them with groups like Homestead, which have history of abuses. And certainly not allow people to profit off of it.

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Suprak the Stud posted...

Biden is specifically for unaccompanied minors. Children that do not cross the boarder with their family and need some place to stay until their families are located or until the US government can find an appropriate guardian. It makes far more sense to detain solo children than it does to pull them apart from families that come with them.

I mean, if they're being detained it's still a cage. If you want it to not be a cage the children need to easily be able to leave.

I'm not saying they don't need to build shelter. I'm saying that what Biden is doing is not humane shelter, it's not a "good enough" improvement. The people getting the contracts to build these temporary shelters are the same companies who oversaw the tent camps and human rights violations at detention centers, and that is plainly not good enough.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

I mean finding the parents so them being there isn't the forever plan is a nice change.

^

And the underlying policy is different. A lot of the children Trump detained had families and we just cant find them now. Trump was forced to stop in 2018, but a lot of damage was already done by that point and some of these kids are holdovers from then. The new population came here alone and I would think it would be less humanitarian to just let them go and hope they arent the victim of predatory actions for the rest of their journey. Biden isnt just kicking them out like Trump, so either you just let them wander off or you have to find some way to hold them until you can find a safe home for them.

Whats the other solution Im missing here?

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What's the alternative supposed to be? Turn them away? Just have them roam the streets?

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

I mean finding the parents so them being there isn't the forever plan is a nice change.

Chris Im gonna say it to you even though you probably already know this, just to make it clear so I dont have to repeat myself: Joe Biden is objectively better than Donald Trump.

My criticism of Joe is because were supposed to be building back better (sounds a lot like MAGA now that I think about it tbh), and Im holding him to a standard higher than not Trump.

Corrik7 posted...

So you don't intend to defend your stance. Biden barely won, and he was far and away the most popular democratic candidate there was. And, was one of the only ones that could get people like me to vote for him over Trump.

If were talking overall popularity, Bernie has always been above or equal to Joe Biden, actually, so whos talking out of their ass now?

Also tell me this, if Bernie was the candidate, would you have voted for Trump or abstained?

Anyway, I hate arguing Bernie would have won, because its an impossible and pointless exercise. I think its more useful to say hey lets vote for candidates who genuinely want to do good things, because the bare minimum isnt good enough.

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HashtagSEP posted...

What's the alternative supposed to be? Turn them away? Just have them roam the streets?

What was the alternative in 2019? Lets do that.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I mean, if they're being detained it's still a cage. If you want it to not be a cage the children need to easily be able to leave.

I'm not saying they don't need to be shelter. I'm saying that what Biden is doing is not humane shelter, it's not a "good enough" improvement. The people getting the contracts to build these temporary shelters are the same companies who oversaw the tent camps and human rights violations at detention centers, and that is plainly not good enough.

Oh ok I see thanks. I guess I had assumed Biden would have mandated better conditions than Trump but admittedly I have seen no evidence either way so I cannot say that for certain. Either way thanks!

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

What was the alternative in 2019? Lets do that.

Trump sent them back to their home country. That isnt what you want.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

What was the alternative in 2019? Lets do that.

Didn't they just not let them in the country in 2019

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Like theyre coming here for help. What we should be doing is giving them safe shelter until a permanent solution can be found.

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Now if the conditions of said shelter literally have not improved, then yes, that's absolutely a problem. But if they have, then I'm not sure I see a better solution.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

If were talking overall popularity, Bernie has always been above or equal to Joe Biden, actually, so whos talking out of their ass now?

Oh... It was actually Bernie that won the Democratic spot in a landslide. My bad. I was under the impression he lost to your worst candidate in 50 years in Hillary Clinton and then Joe Biden. Thanks for correcting that I was actually wrong on that.

And, no, I wouldn't have voted for Bernie over Trump in 2020. In 2016, yes. Not 2020.

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Suprak the Stud posted...

Trump sent them back to their home country. That isnt what you want.

HashtagSEP posted...

Didn't they just not let them in the country in 2019

No guys, I was saying what were the Democrats saying should be done in 2019, as in, the alternative to kids in cages.

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Suprak the Stud posted...

Oh ok I see thanks. I guess I had assumed Biden would have mandated better conditions than Trump but admittedly I have seen no evidence either way so I cannot say that for certain. Either way thanks!

Well conditions have improved marginally, but the structure is the same. It really is a similar policy (people in here have covered the subtle differences) and a lot of the same contractors are involved. Instead of LITERAL cages it's like, converted trailers, which is good! It's just, a lot of the same abuses are going to occur in a slightly nicer living space. Kids are still being detained past the 72 hour limit. Stuff like that.

It's the equivalent of when prisons improve the quality of their cafeteria food and act like it's a huge step towards prison reform.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

No guys, I was saying what were the Democrats saying should be done in 2019, as in, the alternative to kids in cages.

I'm asking you personally. What do you think is a better solution?

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https://twitter.com/kamalaharris/status/985219590987927552?s=21

These are just...such easy layups theyre just giving away, and for what?

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HashtagSEP posted...

Now if the conditions of said shelter literally have not improved, then yes, that's absolutely a problem. But if they have, then I'm not sure I see a better solution.

I mean this is easy, you build actual shelter and pay trained social workers for quality care instead of building detention centers run by for-profit companies that kids are literally not allowed to leave. Big difference!

Homeless shelters don't function by locking up the homeless, right? Same deal.

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They're children. I'm not sure "just freely let them leave" is a great idea as it would be for adults. Like, if they just let them leave, it's going to turn into "Biden administration doesn't give a shit about kids, losing children every day!"

It's a lot more complicated than just treating them as adults.

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HashtagSEP posted...

I'm asking you personally. What do you think is a better solution?

Setting aside that Im not the one who did photo-ops outside these facilities or ran on kids in cages, my first thought was repurposing kids Summer camps including the activities, also/and allowing the kids to have caretakers/foster families assigned that can let them not be literally locked up.

Literally anything but blatant hypocrisy would be nice.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I mean this is easy, you build actual shelter and pay trained social workers for quality care instead of building detention centers run by for-profit companies that kids are literally not allowed to leave. Big difference!

Homeless shelters don't function by locking up the homeless, right? Same deal.

Yep that makes sense, other than I guess I would be a bit more nuanced on the time limit. Homeless people are free to leave when they want sure, but I do not think the US government should just let children leave as they want until they have found a safe permanent home for them. Otherwise youre going to open them up to predatory actions and risk losing them.

Improve the quality of the shelter and replace guards with social workers 100% though.

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HashtagSEP posted...

They're children. I'm not sure "just freely let them leave" is a great idea as it would be for adults. Like, if they just let them leave, it's going to turn into "Biden administration doesn't give a shit about kids, losing children every day!"

It's a lot more complicated than just treating them as adults.

Ok so...just admit the Democratic politicians complaining about kids in cages who are ok with this are hypocrites and we can move on. Otherwise Im not sure why youre arguing about it.

Noticeably, the squad is not ok with this!

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Ok so...just admit the Democratic politicians complaining about kids in cages who are ok with this are hypocrites and we can move on. Otherwise Im not sure why youre arguing about it.

Noticeably, the squad is not ok with this!

So you're saying it's a good idea to just let children freely come and go as they please?

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I'm literally agreeing with you that cages aren't the answer.

I'm just saying it's a complicated issue, and not just "IT'S SOOOOO EASY! NO CAGES! BOOM, DONE!" like you're trying to imply. Better conditions, 100%. Actual social workers, 100%.

Freely letting children that have no money, no idea where they are, and probably don't even speak the language just freely wander the streets whenever they want? Not a good idea.

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HashtagSEP posted...

So you're saying it's a good idea to just let children freely come and go as they please?

Are you saying people should be able to exploit a loophole easily sending their kids to the border alone? If the child was wandering unaccompanied alone before the border, do you think it is because they just randomly made their way to the border?

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HashtagSEP posted...

They're children. I'm not sure "just freely let them leave" is a great idea as it would be for adults. Like, if they just let them leave, it's going to turn into "Biden administration doesn't give a shit about kids, losing children every day!"

It's a lot more complicated than just treating them as adults.

I mean that's not the ideal. What you want is the quality care I mentioned. But part of being humane is allowing escape from a bad situation if that occurs. It shouldn't happen, but the escape valve should be there.

Another point of clarification - we refer to them as children but this policy applies to all unaccompanied minors. You have people in their late teens being detained too, it's not just completely helpless babies. They've got SOME agency.

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HashtagSEP posted...

So you're saying it's a good idea to just let children freely come and go as they please?

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

allowing the kids to have caretakers/foster families assigned that can let them not be literally locked up.

I dont think Im saying that


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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

I dont think Im saying that

And you think they can just do that instantly as soon as they cross? Like it's the DMV? They just walk up, get their picture taken, and get handed a foster family and an air freshener?

That's literally part of the solution, but it's not something that can happen literally second one of them entering the country. You need to do something until that can happen.

Obviously the answer isn't literal cages, but it's also not just "okay go wander somewhere i guess"

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I mean that's not the ideal. What you want is the quality care I mentioned. But part of being humane is allowing escape from a bad situation if that occurs. It shouldn't happen, but the escape valve should be there.

Another point of clarification - we refer to them as children but this policy applies to all unaccompanied minors. You have people in their late teens being detained too, it's not just completely helpless babies. They've got SOME agency.

I mean that still way too young to leave them to their own devices. The government also doesnt allow 16 year old Americans to just live on their own.

But I think we agree on the best solution being safe housing until a permanent solution or family in the US can be found so Im really just debating to debate at this point.

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To clarify on "they should be allowed to leave," what I have read and been told on the subject is that while social workers do end up chasing kids down to convince them to stay, the OFFICIAL policy is that they should not do this and the kids should be allowed to leave. So it seems to be something that actually works better than it sounds in practice?

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HashtagSEP posted...

And you think they can just do that instantly as soon as they cross? Like it's the DMV? They just walk up, get their picture taken, and get handed a foster family and an air freshener?

That's literally part of the solution, but it's not something that can happen literally second one of them entering the country. You need to do something until that can happen.

Obviously the answer isn't literal cages, but it's also not just "okay go wander somewhere i guess"

ok so were back to:

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Ok so...just admit the Democratic politicians complaining about kids in cages who are ok with this are hypocrites and we can move on. Otherwise Im not sure why youre arguing about it.

If they didnt have a solution ready day 1, so in the meantime you have to re-do the exact thing you complained about from the last guy, Im sorryyou fucked up!

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

ok so were back to:

If they didnt have a solution ready day 1, so in the meantime you have to re-do the exact thing you complained about from the last guy, Im sorryyou fucked up!

And I'm asking what the alternative is while they prepare a better solution? You're happy to criticize, and more power to you, but you're not actually adding anything to the conversation if that's all you want to do.

If you think they should just "Send the fuckers back!" until then, just say it. If you think they should just "Okay, go loose, you're not our problem," just say it. Say SOMETHING instead of just acting like the answer is easy and obvious.

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I would argue that we shouldn't have to come up with a solution, and that's on the shoulders of those elected, especially after making such a big deal about it, to have a plan or come up with something by now to fix it.

And I don't really have a reason to believe a plan or solution is even being considered for it. Lest we'd hear something about considering options at the very least aside from giving it a more palletable name for it.

Edit: I need to clarify that I don't expect something to have been done immediately since I agree whatever they do will take time, but it just seems like total inaction on this.

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Everything I've seen about the Biden administration holding facilities is that it is just for unaccompanied minors, they are much improved facilities that are actually liveable and that minors are only there for a few days until they can be placed in foster care.

So uh not sure the issue with that.

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

I would argue that we shouldn't have to come up with a solution, and that's on the shoulders of those elected, especially after making such a big deal about it, to have a plan or come up with something by now to fix it.

Obviously it's not on us to have one. We're not saying "Hey Biden, ask ChaosTony for a plan." We're just trying to have a debate, and it's so far been a very one-sided debate. Which is fine. If Tony would rather just complain about stuff and not be challenged on it instead of opening a dialogue, it's perfectly within his rights. There's no incorrect way to B8 unless you're FullThrottle. But if that's the case it's nice to know he's not looking for actual debates.

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I mean, again it's pretty simple. Don't use for-profit detention centers, especially ones that are unlicensed and often don't hire people who have experience dealing with children, and especially children with a history of trauma.

Conditions might have improved, but staff have not. And staffing is just as important.

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HashtagSEP posted...

We're just trying to have a debate, and it's so far been a very one-sided debate. Which is fine. If Tony would rather just complain about stuff and not be challenged on it instead of opening a dialogue, it's perfectly within his rights.

Literally what are you talking about my dude.

Not only did I give my opinion on a better plan, but I also said hey, Democrats complained about this exact facility in 2019, why didnt they have a plan? its not one-sided for me to criticize them for not having a plan??

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I know this paints me in an ignorant light, but I've never even heard of a Senate Parlaimentarian before the past few days. I swear it almost sounds like some made up bullshit to keep the minimum wage depressed.

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Although with how fast multi billionaires quiver when Bernie mentions them maybe we don't need congress to have a spine.

16 an hour at Costco now!

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To be fair, Costco is also the company with the dude in charge who said they would murder someone if they increased the hot dog prices.

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Costco actually has a long reputation of paying and treating their employees well tbh