Current Events > Biden sparks TERF war on twitter with gender discrimination order

(+) Yeah! (+)

Questionmarktarius posted...

Nearly 200 posts, no stripes-of-shame yet.

Sorry about that. I think I cursed the thread.

iPhone_7 posted...

.....you are a bigot.

And you're not intelligent nor objective enough to have a worthwhile opinion on a topic like this.

hockeybub89 posted...

I do think trans men and women should have to prove themselves in some way.

Though I love sports, they're still just sports at the end of the day. I'm not going to overly worry about a handful of scummy real or fake trans people ruining "muh sanctity". I think we can easily iron issues out.

This all really goes back to societal acceptance of the trans community. We all know a lot of the loud voices here are people that simply don't believe transgenderism is real. Painting them as crazy perverts and grifters is what they'll do whether or not the topic is sports.

It's weird that people are doomsaying while also calling the issue nuanced and complicated. The latter implies we have yet to figure out a solution.

I don't really have an opinion on this one way or the other but I don't think it's about the sanctity of the sport as much as the fact that for a lot of women, their ability to excel in sports will have a significant impact on their lives through things like scholarships for example.

Someone getting an unfair advantage and potentially kicking a 3rd place athlete into fourth place (again, not saying I agree with this view) is the difference between a scholarship and an education or a job at McDonalds.

I thought Biden was about unity. His voters are getting what they deserve, discord and division amongst factions that wanted endgames that contradict each other.

---

Unity just means agree with what I say then we'll be united.

---

iPhone_7 posted...

Women should be able to compete in womens sports. Transwomen are women. There is no gray area, there is no nuance, if you disagree you are a bigot and probably altright. This isnt difficult.

so if arnold declared himself as trans in his prime eould ir be ok if he competed with other girls with all his muscles? just asking, im curious about your opinion

---

Bigots posting non-stop and it takes them several NWDs before they get any posts deleted? Sounds about right for the moderation staff's understanding of what is and isn't transphobic.

---

nemu posted...

I don't get why participation in professional sports leagues is seen as like the holy grail of trans equality. There exist spaces in which the biological difference between cis and trans women matter, so to act like it doesn't matter in sports is just silly. We can accept that there is no difference socially in the grand majority of cases, but a space that does not include them does not mean it's discrimination.

This

---

ManicPlumber77 posted...

My ex was intersex, and a transgender woman.
What are your thoughts on that? Could she beat the shit out of any biological woman?
Or what about people with AIS?
Or what about people that started hormonal transition early?
What about people that have been on feminizing hormone therapy for years, like me, who make testosterone in amounts similar to any other woman?
What about people who have orchiectomies?

You're just shoehorning people in with each other in hopes that your pathetic screaming will be noticed.
Get fucked.

Do you realize that intersex is NOT transgenderism? That its biology and not a social construct?

Recon868 posted...

Do you realize that intersex is NOT transgenderism? That its biology and not a social construct?

It's not an -ism, and if you think there's no social construct framework concerning intersex children I don't even

---

Smackems posted...

I ain't touching this shit with a ten foot pole

People are just blindly jumping in to fight. You have to pick your battles. You have to pick when, where and how you fight in order to win. You have to compromise a whole lot so that you have enough allies on your side.

Am I the only one seeing Biden raising multiple controversial issues? Gun control for the working poor is one and this is another.

Topic is a super important issue but sorry stuff like vaccination for all, stimulus package, jobs for all, housing for all, medical care for all has to be prioritized.

I really think Biden knows he will distract people with this stuff.

---

hockeybub89 posted...

Can you stop saying "biological women?" Are trans women and men synthetic or something? There are better ways to reference atypical conditions. This is like comparing people on the autism spectrum to "normal/sane/biological people".

Biology is more than your sex chomosomes.

A trans woman is still male, not female. Male and female are biological realities that are out of our control. You are born with one and that's that. None of us have a choice.Don't underestimate the impact of sex chromosomes. They play a big part of our biological make up and functions. This is why males are by far more stronger and athletic on average than females.

Of course trans people are not synthetic. They are human like everyone else. We should be compassionate to all humans. But athletic sports are based not on identity but biology. A trans woman has a huge advantage over a female woman. That is why it's unfair. It's no one's fault, its not something anyone should feel ashamed of but rather its a biological reality we all have to accept. We don't choose our sex.

gunplagirl posted...

It's not an -ism, and if you think there's no social construct framework concerning intersex children I don't even

What? Intersex people lack a definitive sex, transgenders do have a definite sex. Intersex and transgenderism are two different things.

CobraGT posted...

People are just blindly jumping in to fight. You have to pick your battles. You have to pick when, where and how you fight in order to win. You have to compromise a whole lot so that you have enough allies on your side.

Am I the only one seeing Biden raising multiple controversial issues? Gun control for the working poor is one and this is another.

Topic is a super important issue but sorry stuff like vaccination for all, stimulus package, jobs for all, housing for all, medical care for all has to be prioritized.

I really think Biden knows he will distract people with this stuff.

We need to compromise? Okay. I'll have to compromise with the opposition, congratulations, you (cobragt) are no longer recognized as a human being and are hereby stripped of all rights that entails, including citizenship and the like.

Don't compromise human rights. And this isn't even a sweeping improvement, it's basically just a reaffirmation of the Obama administration's policy on trans rights. Which is to say, something that the Trump administration STRIPPED from us.

And addressing multiple injustices from the start of the Biden administration is a wonderful move, saying he could only do a few things at once shows you don't even have a thorough grasp on how large a grasp on policies the administration at large has. It's not like Biden did this this week, most of these were prepared weeks or even months in advance.

---

Conflict posted...

^ Guys don't even respond to it. Just mark the post it made and keep it moving

Fantastic, a warning, goodie

---

Oh, that's... great, Joe. Speaking of sports, can you do something far more important, like write an EO or get to work crafting a law to allow collegiate athletes on scholarships to get paid so they're not literal slaves?

Biden: *crickets*

Uh-huh.
---

The volume of adult female lungs is typically 1012% smaller than that of males who have the same height and age. In this study, we investigated how this volume difference is distributed between the rib cage and the diaphragm abdomen compartments

MALE BONES ARE BIGGER AND STRONGER, in both size and density. Peak male bone mass is around 50% more than women's, and women lose bone faster as we age.

Just facts.

---

DoubleDare posted...

The volume of adult female lungs is typically 1012% smaller than that of males who have the same height and age. In this study, we investigated how this volume difference is distributed between the rib cage and the diaphragm abdomen compartments

MALE BONES ARE BIGGER AND STRONGER, in both size and density. Peak male bone mass is around 50% more than women's, and women lose bone faster as we age.

Just facts.

Okay, now where's the links. And where's the studies for trans women and their lung capacity?

---

gunplagirl posted...

Okay, now where's the links. And where's the studies for trans women and their lung capacity?

Trans women are born as males, their lung capacity would not change, nor their bones too much,

https://fairplayforwomen.com/biological-sex-differences/

Its just science and dna.

---

Recon868 posted...

A trans woman is still male, not female. Male and female are biological realities that are out of our control. You are born with one and that's that. None of us have a choice.Don't underestimate the impact of sex chromosomes. They play a big part of our biological make up and functions. This is why males are by far more stronger and athletic on average than females.

Of course trans people are not synthetic. They are human like everyone else. We should be compassionate to all humans. But athletic sports are based not on identity but biology. A trans woman has a huge advantage over a female woman. That is why it's unfair. It's no one's fault, its not something anyone should feel ashamed of but rather its a biological reality we all have to accept. We don't choose our sex.

I was talking purely about wording here. Trans women are not biologically men. They are biologically trans women. That is how they are born. Obviously, chromosomes are factually a vital part in the composition of a human being, but every immutable aspect within our body is biological. There is an othering at play when you start throwing around words like "biological" and "normal" to define groups of people. It belittles and dehumanizes out-groups. It tells them their physical and mental experiences are wrong and/or illegitimate.

No one would like it if a stranger walked up to a friend or family member and called them abnormal or non-biological due to some condition, so they should pay it forward and extend that courtesy to others.

---

DoubleDare posted...

Trans women are born as males, their lung capacity would not change, nor their bones too much,

https://fairplayforwomen.com/biological-sex-differences/

Its just science and dna.

No, it really isn't, you're making sweeping assumptions to are very transphobic... And also telling total lies. Yes, lung capacity can change even without any size difference. Someone gets sick or becomes old? Congratulations, it's probably lowered.

And bone density stuff is also a classic excuse that was used in previous centuries to justify why black people are soooo perfect for physical labor. Like slavery. Congratulations, you've just espoused an argument that's literally eugenics.

---

gunplagirl posted...

No, it really isn't, you're making sweeping assumptions to are very transphobic... And also telling total lies. Yes, lung capacity can change even without any size difference. Someone gets sick or becomes old? Congratulations, it's probably lowered.

And bone density stuff is also a classic excuse that was used in previous centuries to justify why black people are soooo perfect for physical labor. Like slavery. Congratulations, you've just espoused an argument that's literally eugenics.

You didn't refute anything that he said or cited.

Your last point...wow. I really wouldn't go there if I were you. Substantial biological differences between sex are real. To compare that to racist ideas like you mentioned is both offensive and insulting .

Recon868 posted...

You didn't refute anything that he said or cited.

Your last point...wow. I really wouldn't go there if I were you. Substantial biological differences between sex are real. To compare that to racist ideas like you mentioned is both offensive and insulting .

If it doesn't relate to trans women it's irrelevant. I don't need to refute blatantly false statements.

And cry more, it's literally the same argument.

---

hockeybub89 posted...

I was talking purely about wording here. Trans women are not biologically men. They are biologically trans women. That is how they are born. Obviously, chromosomes are factually a vital part in the composition of a human being, but every immutable aspect within our body is biological. There is an othering at play when you start throwing around words like "biological" and "normal" to define groups of people. It belittles and dehumanizes out-groups. It tells them their physical and mental experiences are wrong and/or illegitimate.

No one would like it if a stranger walked up to a friend or family member and called them abnormal or non-biological due to some condition, so they should pay it forward and extend that courtesy to others.

You can't say gender is a social construct and then say it is biological. Going by modern definitions, the term "woman" is a societal construct, not a biological one. That womanhood is independent of sex and biology. Therefore there is no such thing as a biological trans woman.

We should always be compassionate towards all humans, but terms like "biological" are important especially in topics like these where biology matters.

Jesus and some of these people identify as "progressive", yet still openly discriminate against Trans individuals.

---

FlameTurtle posted...

I wonder how many times UR has been told that "Transgenders" and "biologically male/female" aren't the terms to use

Such a shitty thing to use to troll

He is correct whether you like it or not. In this context, they are appropriate terms because its scientific since biological women and trans gender women are compared in sports. How would you differentiate them then?

Doctors even use it. Why? Because biological males are more at risk for certain diseases than biological women and the reverse holds true as well.

If you have issues with the terms, you should complain to the entire science field tbh.

gunplagirl posted...

If it doesn't relate to trans women it's irrelevant. I don't need to refute blatantly false statements.

And cry more, it's literally the same argument.

You are making excuses. You asked for citation you got it and now choose to ignore it because you don't like it. You don't understand how biological sex works and how development of our bodies are impacted by our sex chromosomes.

It's literally the same argument? No, one is reality that has been observed and proven by science, the other is a disproven theory feuled by racism.

Recon868 posted...

You are making excuses. You asked for citation you got it and now choose to ignore it because you don't like it. You don't understand how biological sex works and how development of our bodies are impacted by our sex chromosomes.

It's literally the same argument? No, one is reality that has been observed and proven by science, the other is a disproven theory feuled by racism.

"Biological sex" is a misnomer and MASSIVELY overlooks the deep intricacies of sex. Please read a medical textbook instead of repeating what you remember from the first day of sex ed in 6th grade.

---

Recon868 posted...

You can't say gender is a social construct and then say it is biological. Going by modern definitions, the term "woman" is a societal construct, not a biological one. That womanhood is independent of sex and biology. Therefore there is no such thing as a biological trans woman.

We should always be compassionate towards all humans, but terms like "biological" are important especially in topics like these where biology matters.

Gender might be a social construct, but trans people are objectively feeling something from within the confines of their body. I'm not getting into some gotcha contest. Calling it non-biological and abnormal is the opposite of compassion. A doctor can call your cancerous cyst abnormal at your appointment, but you shouldn't walk to a person and say they are non-biological and weird because they are outside the norm. "Biological" is a nonsensical word in this instance.

We are a sum of all of our parts. The brain is the most important organ in our entire body, and yet we don't treat every signal it fires out with the same respect. If someone's arm hurts, that's "real", but mental issues are "all in their head" and "not true". Using certain terminology reinforces this misguided view.

Now this is where I would expect some snarky comment about Tom Brady saying he's a woman or something about attack helicopters and all that does is reinforce my point on the lack of respect for half of the goddamn function of our brains.

---

gunplagirl posted...

We need to compromise? Okay. I'll have to compromise with the opposition, congratulations, you (cobragt) are no longer recognized as a human being and are hereby stripped of all rights that entails, including citizenship and the like.

Don't compromise human rights. And this isn't even a sweeping improvement, it's basically just a reaffirmation of the Obama administration's policy on trans rights. Which is to say, something that the Trump administration STRIPPED from us.

And addressing multiple injustices from the start of the Biden administration is a wonderful move, saying he could only do a few things at once shows you don't even have a thorough grasp on how large a grasp on policies the administration at large has. It's not like Biden did this this week, most of these were prepared weeks or even months in advance.

@gunplagirl Chill. I see one person bringing up making compromises with the enemy. YOU !!!!

I said make compromises. For instance Intergen. There is a teaching video using intergen as an example. Young people who want to go to college join with seniors whose social security is threatened. Intergen, an inter-generational and multi-racial activist alliance.

I am saying to ally with people who want to immigrate from Central and South America.

---

Here is the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG0JuRkKrEE

---

looks like it's the terfs that sparked the terf war

Trans women and cis women on average have very different bodies. How do people in good faith deny this?

---

Can I get a tl;dr on what the hell is going on ITT?

---

SPE posted...

Can I get a tl;dr on what the hell is going on ITT?

Biden says Trans People can compete I sports.
some people believe transwomen will have advantage over biological women due to having been through male puberty.
Some people don't believe that.

Think that's a bout it.

edit: the conversation about this often leaves out transmen, i apologise for doing so. I don't know if transmen would have a disadvantage over Cis Men.

---

DravenRainrix posted...

Biden says Trans People can compete I sports.
some people believe transwomen will have advantage over biological women due to having been through male puberty.
Some people don't believe that.

Think that's a bout it.

edit: the conversation about this often leaves out transmen, i apologise for doing so. I don't know if transmen would have a disadvantage over Cis Men.

thanks :)


---

Galliumtheone posted...

Supporting equality and being against exclusion are one and the same. Don't say someone born with a dick should be allowed to shit in a woman's restroom and out of the other side of your mouth, say they shouldn't be allowed to compete in women's sports.

@Galliumtheone
The key difference here is that sports has always been discriminatory. It's discrimination when two sexes compete in different categories. It's discrimination when big athletes compete against small athletes. It's discrimination when a person with one particular disability cannot compete against someone with a very similar disability in the paralympics.

Discrimination in sport is defended on the basis of allowing fairer competition for protected classes. Fairer because we recognise that these protected classes are at a physical disadvantage in one way or another.

This is why we talk about sports in an entirely different way to bathroom laws. There's no conceivable reason a person can actually defend as to why someone needs a certain set of genitals to use one bathroom or another. But it does no good simply to point out that sports is being discriminatory. of course it is! The better question is - is the discrimination necessary?

So if you want to say that no it's not necessary, and make a "it's all or nothing" argument, then I defer to my earlier statement: do away with sex discrimination in sports altogether, because putting women in a separate category than men on the basis that males (without DSDs) have an unfair physiological advantage and then at the same time allowing transwomen into the women category and disregarding their sex altogether makes zero sense.

Just be consistent. Is it sex or gender that we're discriminating on here in sport? Why are we discriminating on either of those things? Because you cannot use sex as the reason for discrimination and then allow gender to be the criteria that people use to discriminate with.

By the way, I have the same view of bathrooms as I do for sport. Do away with drawings of skirts and trousers on bathrooms altogether. Gender neutral bathrooms are where it should be at.

---

SPE posted...

thanks :)

Also, some people argue that even if the advantage exists, its immaterial anyway because discrimination is discrimination and this advantage should be treated with the same quality as having any another uncategorised sports advantage, like faster twitch muscles or a greater VO2 max

---

Recon868 posted...

You didn't refute anything that he said or cited.

none of them have or can

---

shockthemonkey posted...

Transgenders is never going to be correct, UR has been saying it for years despite being corrected because he likes making transphobic posts for attention. And you can say AMAB instead of biological males if you want to be accurate.

Your attempt to shift the topic a stupid on about semantic terms is pathetic

You've ignored every single point made about basic factual indisputable biology, ignored all the evidence and facts presented

and now are desperately trying to change the subject its embarrassing

Hell literally claiming transgenders are offended by the word transgender because it's so offensive to be transgender is so stupid. You're like the Latinx people.

Use any semantics you want, the simple fact that someone born into a male body will have a physical advantage over a female one

regardless of their gender, it would be unfair for them to compete in sports against biological female bodies

That's unpleasant hard science

You will never ever respond to this

---

You're born male or female, you aren't assigned either one. This "assigned at birth" is more nonsense than the "zim/zer" shit.

---

shnangyboos posted...

You're born male or female, you aren't assigned either one. This "assigned at birth" is more nonsense than the "zim/zer" shit.

Biologically I agree

Gender I'm with the SJWs. That's a social construct

If a someone born in a biologically male body believes that they are a woman trapped in a male body, I don't see what's wrong with that and they deserve equal rights in law and business and employment and insurance etc.

But the fact remains they have a biologically male body, even if they are a transgender woman. No hormone therapy is going to change that they have an unfair biological advantage

The fact people with a straight face keep pointing out how few transgenders there are while handwaving how many casually squash female sporting records with ease is also textbook doublethink

---

It's sad watching Unfair and all else getting called a bigot for simply calling out biological differences. Even calling for banning them? Wtf.

Stuff like this is what will give rise to another right wing president who'll trample all over trans rights.


---

I think another thing not added in the discussion (along with menstrual cycles), it is incredibly easy to dupe a doping test. Not fool proof, but it is well known people who take extra androgens continue to compete as naturals in sports

---

CARRRNE_ASADA posted...

It's sad watching Unfair and all else getting called a bigot for simply calling out biological differences. Even calling for banning them? Wtf.

Stuff like this is what will give rise to another right wing president who'll trample all over trans rights.

This is literal extortion. "Be nice to us or we'll elect another fascist. Be a shame if something happened to your democracy."

---

Oh no, not the sports balls

---