Current Events > Biden sparks TERF war on twitter with gender discrimination order

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TommyG663513 posted...

Can transgender women give birth once they identify as women? Are there biological differences or aren't there?

Of course they can give birth to a child. If you deny otherwise then you are just being bigoted. Trans women are women after all. Why would you think that a woman wouldn't be able to give birth?

This is a life of Brian scene


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https://youtu.be/3NPg9RkVTEA

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shockthemonkey posted...

None of these people actually care. They dont like trans people and this is one of the last socially acceptable ways to attack people for being trans. Its why cis men who have never once talked about womens sports outside of this context are so fired up about it. They want trans people to be othered and theyre happy they still have a way of doing it.

Then how come no one in this topic has attacked transgender men competing in sports?

or has any issue with trans women competing in non segregated leagues or creating their own?

They complete ignore it the same way you ignore every point everyone has raised

Funny that , its almost like they're not just going after transgenders at all and are specifically talking about womens sports

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CyricZ posted...

Hey now there's no need for such incivility.

If only you would argue more civilly.

I guess he just needs us to be more understanding and teach him the basics of civility. After all, it's important that everyone gets a voice in these discussions. And I feel that I'll use my voice to say that he doesn't deserve one because he's uncivil in his discussions.

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TommyG663513 posted...

Ok bad faith poster. Now you're just mimicking me to try and ridicule me. Yup you sure are proving me wrong lol.

Pointing out alleged fallacies isn't actually making an argument or expanding upon previous ones.

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shockthemonkey posted...

None of these people actually care. They dont like trans people and this is one of the last socially acceptable ways to attack people for being trans. Its why cis men who have never once talked about womens sports outside of this context are so fired up about it. They want trans people to be othered and theyre happy they still have a way of doing it.

Or maybe the reality is more complicated than you are giving it credit for?

Also, you can't observe that the posters you are referring to don't at all care about female athletics.

Are you still making an observation or are you willing to call it an argument now?

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TommyG663513 posted...

Ok bad faith poster. Now you're just mimicking me to try and ridicule me. Yup you sure are proving me wrong lol.

Careful everyone. We have to be nice to him or he'll turn to fascism.

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shockthemonkey posted...

None of these people actually care. They dont like trans people and this is one of the last socially acceptable ways to attack people for being trans. Its why cis men who have never once talked about womens sports outside of this context are so fired up about it. They want trans people to be othered and theyre happy they still have a way of doing it.

A little reductive in my case but I can't speak for anyone else


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shockthemonkey posted...

None of these people actually care. They dont like trans people and this is one of the last socially acceptable ways to attack people for being trans. Its why cis men who have never once talked about womens sports outside of this context are so fired up about it. They want trans people to be othered and theyre happy they still have a way of doing it.

Yep. Just look at how hard they simp for generic unfunny comedian #1578 doing a comedy special with tape over their mouth and a title like "things you can't say anymore" or whatever.

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looked posted...

Its still a bad example because Arnold wasnt an elite athlete, his physique wouldnt guarantee that he would dominate womens sports. Even if if you look at his brief powerlifting career, his numbers were that impressive, and wouldnt be good enough to win womens competitions.

Dude, what? Arnold was an elite athlete, he just used his for a beauty pageant

His powerlifting and weightlifting numbers would set records (dude bench 315 for reps)

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gunplagirl posted...

Pointing out alleged fallacies isn't actually making an argument or expanding upon previous ones.

Ok cool

Is it possible that MtFs could have an unfair advantage over cis females in sports?

Keep in mind, my stance throughout this whole topic has been to just allow MtFs to compete in female divisions and only possibly change it after it theoretically "ruins" competition. I'd way rather lean towards inclusivity and possibly experience negative effects than lean exclusive for negative effects that may never happen.

Can you explain to me what part of my argument you have an issue with?

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So cis women have no say anymore?

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SquirtleSkwad posted...

So cis women have no say anymore?

What's the "say"?

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TommyG663513 posted...

Keep in mind, my stance throughout this whole topic has been to just allow MtFs to compete in female divisions and only possibly change it after it theoretically "ruins" competition. I'

That's literally already happened

Mary Gregory had to have her records revoked because she destroyed the whole competition with ease

And she was a barely above average weight lifter pre transition

Dont be like Shock and Gunplay and ignore her accomplishment in complete disrespect to trans women just because its inconvenient for what you want to be true

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SquirtleSkwad posted...

So cis women have no say anymore?

Feminism isnt progressive anymore, society has moved on to more pressing issues, I guess

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CyricZ posted...

What's the "say"?

"Well we need to let white women have a say in if we allow black women to be integrated into our historic whites only school" some lady circa 1960s

Or whatever

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CyricZ posted...

What's the "say"?

Their opinions on gendered public spaces that concern them.

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gunplagirl posted...

"Well we need to let white women have a say in if we allow black women to be integrated into our historic whites only school" some lady circa 1960s

Or whatever

Comparing race to transgenderism never goes well, but that wont stop you


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TommyG663513 posted...

Is it possible that MtFs could have an unfair advantage over cis females in sports?

I think this argument boils down to what you'd classify as unfair, anyway. Even if you categorically showed an advantage (and there's good rationale for why there might be, but little evidence, maybe because data) - you'd end up with the same problem anyway. Why are some advantages considered fair and other unfair? Ultimately it's an arbitrary line in the sand for why we want certain classes of people to have their own competition.

To me the problem is more like this: if we draw a category distinction based on sex on the basis that "sex = performance difference", then how can we allow gender to be the actual means for determining placement of athletes into these particular categories? Like...it just doesn't follow. Either we say the categories are about sex OR gender, but not both.

And if we say that it should be gender only, why even bother having it as a category? Like I don't even understand what the point of having the distinction is anymore at that point.

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SquirtleSkwad posted...

Their opinions on gendered public spaces that concern them.

Do you have an example of these opinions?

We have a cis woman in this topic in support of the EO.

You can ask her her opinion.

EDIT: Sorry, two!

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UnfairRepresent posted...

That's literally already happened

Mary Gregory had to have her records revoked because she destroyed the write competition with ease

And she was a barely above average weight lifter pre transition

Dont be like Shock and Gunplay and ignore her accomplishment in complete disrespect to trans women just because its inconvenient for what you want to be true

Yeah I'd say it is perfectly valid to use your example to exclude trans women from female divisions in weight lifting. I mean, I would certainly like to see more evidence than a single very strong anecdote though.

I don't know how much we can generalize that to all sports. I would argue that the advantages MtFs face could vary widely by sport and even position in that sport.

Not every single aspect of playing sports amounts to physical prowess. Some of it is sport specific intelligence and general decision making.

Which isn't to deny physical advantages, but sometimes those aren't quite as advantageous.

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CyricZ posted...

Do you have an example of these opinions?

We have a cis woman in this topic in support of the EO.

You can ask her her opinion.

I'm not doing this roundabout way of discussion where you just ask leading questions.

I can also just as easily ask my cis wife or cis mother what they think about this. I don't have to ask gunplagirl.

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TommyG663513 posted...

Yeah I'd say it is perfectly valid to use your example to exclude trans women from female divisions in weight lifting. I mean, I would certainly like to see more evidence than a single very strong anecdote though.

its been presented and ignored a dozen times v_V

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SquirtleSkwad posted...

I'm not doing this roundabout way of discussion where you just ask leading questions.

You opened with a roundabout message.

And then you responded with a roundabout message.

What do you want from us.

EDIT: Also I wasn't referring to gunplagirl. FlameTurtle and CalypsoDoom have posted in this topic.

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TommyG663513 posted...

Not every single aspect of playing sports amounts to physical prowess. Some of it is sport specific intelligence and general decision making.

Even then, males have better CNS efficiency than women do even trained as in a woman can't catch up if she trains

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[derp, read it wrong.]

Whether or not you are CIS , or woke or an athlete has no bearing on anything z_Z

We're talking about basic biology..
.

Why are you pretending it's a bigger issue than that?

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WashYourHands posted...

Comparing race to transgenderism never goes well, but that wont stop you

Transgender isn't an ism

And the parallels run extremely deep, but being cute isn't exactly going to help your case.

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pinky0926 posted...

I think this argument boils down to what you'd classify as unfair, anyway. Even if you categorically showed an advantage (and there's good rationale for why there might be, but little evidence, maybe because data) - you'd end up with the same problem anyway. Why are some advantages considered fair and other unfair? Ultimately it's an arbitrary line in the sand for why we want certain classes of people to have their own competition.

To me the problem is more like this: if we draw a category distinction based on sex on the basis that "sex = performance difference", then how can we allow gender to be the actual means for determining placement of athletes into these particular categories? Like...it just doesn't follow. Either we say the categories are about sex OR gender, but not both.

And if we say that it should be gender only, why even bother having it as a category? Like I don't even understand what the point of having the distinction is anymore at that point.

Sex is a super significant factor in determining athletic ability. It involves damn near everything including size, strength, speed, etc.

There is no true fairness, but we do seem to draw a line with hormone treatments. No performance enhancing drugs basically.

It doesn't seem to make sense to segregate sports on the basis of a social construct like gender. Seems like sex makes way more sense due to the consistency of the concept. Or should I say more consistent than gender.

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Conflict posted...

Gunplagirl isn't cis tho

Did you just say I'm cis? That's a slur.

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gunplagirl posted...

Did you just say I'm cis? That's a slur.

Jesus Christ, get his ass!

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Anyway, I'm now just posting in this topic to get it to 500.

For it is literally the only way the discussion of trans people in sports ends on CE. At 500.

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CyricZ posted...

For it is literally the only way the discussion of trans people in sports ends on CE. At 500.

There's about half a dozen spin-off threads, though.

TommyG663513 posted...

Sex is a super significant factor in determining athletic ability. It involves damn near everything including size, strength, speed, etc.

There is no true fairness, but we do seem to draw a line with hormone treatments. No performance enhancing drugs basically.

It doesn't seem to make sense to segregate sports on the basis of a social construct like gender. Seems like sex makes way more sense due to the consistency of the concept. Or should I say more consistent than gender.

I just mean that there's no simple and obvious place to drop the pin to distinguish these categories other than the classical distinction of XX / XY, which clearly doesn't work anymore.

And yes sex is a super significant factor, but in terms of arguing that point its still a fairly arbitrary quantity. Like, if a tall basketball player has say, 3% more performance than an otherwise equal short player (pulling fake numbers out of a hat here), but a male athlete has a 10% advantage over a female one, why is one important and the other not? Like are we simply arguing that there's presumably a threshold somewhere where we draw the line?

That's my problem with it. Categorising on male/female is beautifully simple but also excludes an already marginalised population, but attempting to include this population causes all kinds of problems in identifying where to drop the pin, so to speak.

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CyricZ posted...

Anyway, I'm now just posting in this topic to get it to 500.

For it is literally the only way the discussion of trans people in sports ends on CE. At 500.

there's already been like 3 spin off topics

and there will be a part 2

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gunplagirl posted...

Transgender isn't an ism

And the parallels run extremely deep, but being cute isn't exactly going to help your case.

What term should I have used in that sentence? Im being serious

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with representatives like gunplagirl who needs detractors!

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MildlyIrkedOwl posted...

with representatives like gunplagirl who needs detractors!

Really must upset you to get you to dust off an account with 0 active posts just to dedicate one to me.

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pinky0926 posted...

I just mean that there's no simple and obvious place to drop the pin to distinguish these categories other than the classical distinction of XX / XY, which clearly doesn't work anymore.

And yes sex is a super significant factor, but in terms of arguing that point its still a fairly arbitrary quantity. Like, if a tall basketball player has say, 3% more performance than an otherwise equal short player (pulling fake numbers out of a hat here), but a male athlete has a 10% advantage over a female one, why is one important and the other not? Like are we simply arguing that there's presumably a threshold somewhere where we draw the line?

That's my problem with it. Categorising on male/female is beautifully simple but also excludes an already marginalised population, but attempting to include this population causes all kinds of problems in identifying where to drop the pin, so to speak.

Yeah I agree with pretty much everything you said. Ultimately, sex divisions in sports continues due to traditionalism though I don't think you'd have much of any female athletes in prominence without sex divided divisions.

I don't know how to handle the issues of trans persons in sport, but I lean towards including them. I'd just rather be wrong trying to be inclusive than correct trying to be exclusive. That's all my stance boils down to honestly.

It also isn't really practical to divide teams based on in your example, height. Though, in reality they are in a sense, especially in basketball where height is much more advantageous than other sports. Height generally gives you an athletic advantage.

I would further argue that athletics should be available from the early youth level all the way up to elderly persons. Ideally with people able to compete in divisions appropriate to their skill level. Of course, the practicality of that is very different from my idealistic viewpoint on it.

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gunplagirl posted...

Really must upset you to get you to dust off an account with 0 active posts just to dedicate one to me.

nah I enjoy this shitposting malarky almost as much as you ;)

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gunplagirl posted...

Really must upset you to get you to dust off an account with 0 active posts just to dedicate one to me.

Hell, driving a troll into suiciding a "banked" account is something to be proud of, actually.

TommyG663513 posted...

Though, in reality they are in a sense, especially in basketball where height is much more advantageous than other sports. Height generally gives you an athletic advantage.

A little trivial, but it's not exactly height but more limb length

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TommyG663513 posted...

Yeah I agree with pretty much everything you said. Ultimately, sex divisions in sports continues due to traditionalism though I don't think you'd have much of any female athletes in prominence without sex divided divisions.

I don't know how to handle the issues of trans persons in sport, but I lean towards including them. I'd just rather be wrong trying to be inclusive than correct trying to be exclusive. That's all my stance boils down to honestly.

It also isn't really practical to divide teams based on in your example, height. Though, in reality they are in a sense, especially in basketball where height is much more advantageous than other sports. Height generally gives you an athletic advantage.

I would further argue that athletics should be available from the early youth level all the way up to elderly persons. Ideally with people able to compete in divisions appropriate to their skill level. Of course, the practicality of that is very different from my idealistic viewpoint on it.

Yeah. I mean you have the para sports doing the opposite approach, where they just keep adding new categories for each conceivable advantage/impairment type, with the overall goal of giving everyone they can a platform to compete.

Para sports are interesting actually because they provide the example for the "but we don't categorise based on so many arbitrary advantages, like muscle mass, or height, or muscle tension etc". Well...they do.

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Conflict posted...

Gunplagirl isn't cis tho

Is she trans?

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pinky0926 posted...

Yeah. I mean you have the para sports doing the opposite approach, where they just keep adding new categories for each conceivable advantage/impairment type, with the overall goal of giving everyone they can a platform to compete.

Para sports are interesting actually because they provide the example for the "but we don't categorise based on so many arbitrary advantages, like muscle mass, or height, or muscle tension etc". Well...they do.

Or, skip the need to be hyper-specific about biomarkers, and just institute promotion and relegation.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/transgender-teens-outrun-track-field-competitors-critics-close/story?id=55856294

Transgender high school sophomores Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood came in first and second place, respectively, in the 100-meter race at the State Open Finals June 4, angering some parents who complained they had a competitive advantage over non-transgender students.

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