Current Events > Biden sparks TERF war on twitter with gender discrimination order

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CyricZ posted...

Hey I'm not makin' the topics.

That was a genuine compliment

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Fuck TERFs.

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Just get rid of gendered sports altogether. Let the best of the best rise to the top.


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ManicPlumber77 posted...

My ex was intersex, and a transgender woman.
What are your thoughts on that?

I dont have any

Could she beat the shit out of any biological woman?

Any? doubt it. But she would have an advantage

Or what about people with AIS?
Or what about people that started hormonal transition early?
What about people that have been on feminizing hormone therapy for years, like me, who make testosterone in amounts similar to any other woman?
What about people who have orchiectomies?

They should be treated equally in law and business

But they should be excluded from female born sports and they should immediately understand the reason why

You're just shoehorning people in with each other in hopes that your pathetic screaming will be noticed.

Wut

How is Pointing out frankly obvious undeniable facts "pathetic screaming "

The NFL, NBA, Soccer, MLB all have 0 rules barring women from competing in the male league , some have even had tryouts

but in every single sport the top female athletes in their primes are worse than the weakest, least talented male players.

That Sucks but it is a fact

Men are taller, bigger , stronger, faster. Have different bone density, have different hormones, have less pain receptors

That sucks but it is a fact

socially I'm 100% with you.

But I can't join in this train of denying blatantly indisputable facts of physical biology just because you wish they were true.

it makes me think of that life of Brian scene


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pogo_rabid posted...

Just get rid of gendered sports altogether. Let the best of the best rise to the top.

It'll be only men though.

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pogo_rabid posted...

Just get rid of gendered sports altogether. Let the best of the best rise to the top.

None of the "male" sports ban women from competing

Women just can't make the cut due to biology. Only female leagues are segregated

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ManicPlumber77 posted...

Lol, hormone therapy makes you lose muscle mass at a rapid rate, Get a basic understanding of biochem, noob.

Hormone therapy doesn't negate the drastically larger and denser bones, the years of putting on muscle as a man which even after atrophy still results in a much higher net muscle mass, and the fact that you do not have to undergo hormone therapy to identify as a woman.

A light weight man that could fit women's UFC weight range merely needs to identify as a woman to compete as a woman.

Saying that a trans person needs hormone therapy to identify as their desired gender is actually elitist and transphobic, you terrible bigot, you.

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ManicPlumber77 posted...

Again,

*citation needed*

Stop pulling garbage out of your ass and throwing it onto a message board.

Are you legitimately saying women and men are physically and athletically equal to each other ?

UnfairRepresent posted...

None of the "male" sports ban women from competing

Women just can't make the cut due to biology. Only female leagues are segregated

Too bad so sad, you're either born with it or you're not.

I'm under 6ft and you don't see me whining about them not making "Manlet NBA" a thing.

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Oh look, bigots coming in to agree with TERFs. So hey I have an idea, log off and never sign in again to anything until you're ready to join the civilized word.

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kage_53 posted...

Are you legitimately saying women and men are physically and athletically equal to each other ?

Try showing them that South Park episode.

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gunplagirl posted...

Oh look, bigots coming in to agree with TERFs. So hey I have an idea, log off and never sign in again to anything until you're ready to join the civilized word.

You would agree my solution is the best, right?

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shockthemonkey posted...

Also, fuck the misogynistic transphobes who dont actually give a shit about women but still use this issue to attack trans women.

So most of them? this fucking subject is only brought up by people that don't care and never cared about sports period but when its about trans people they go fucking insane

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ManicPlumber77 posted...

Lol, hormone therapy makes you lose muscle mass at a rapid rate, Get a basic understanding of biochem, noob.

This. There's also the fact that most major sports already have guidelines in terms of effectively allowing transgender athletes in sports.

Most of this debate is just people who don't know what they're talking about throwing shade to each other, its no wonder this topic gets so toxic.

shockthemonkey posted...

Also, fuck the misogynistic transphobes who dont actually give a shit about women but still use this issue to attack trans women.

who is attacking trans women? is acknowledging that trans women have a biological advantage over cis women when it comes to physical ability an attack on trans women?

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pogo_rabid posted...

Just get rid of gendered sports altogether. Let the best of the best rise to the top.

That would make women's s teams worthless

Who cares.

Women's sports are a gimmick anyway.

Lebronwon posted...

Any educational institution that receives federal funding must admit biologically-male athletes to ... womens scholarships

Thats kind of messed up, right? Ive seen so many people game scholarship programs and now a new way just opened up.

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ITT: astroterfing
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FlameTurtle posted...

That was a genuine compliment

Well thank you then :)

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CalosiaTana posted...

That would make women's s teams worthless

There wouldn't be women's teams in the first place. There would just be "teams". You can either competitive or you're not. If you're not the cream that rose to the top, then you should look for another profession.

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Just desegregate all sporting events. Problem solved.

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shockthemonkey posted...

You know that collegiate athletes arent professionals right?

They're modern day slaves. Being a slave isn't a profession.

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The obvious solution is to have all sports leagues separated into weight divisions.

shockthemonkey posted...

Its amazing how many people suddenly give a shit about womens sports when it means banning trans people.

I actually like womens MMA

But I dont think "You don't watch womens Rugby, therefore it doesn't matter if we ruin it" is the defense that you think it is

Not everyone is as egotistical as you. The athletes themselves matter whether you personally support the sport or not.

Its such a baffling evasion of basic biological facts

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Topics like these expose users for who they really are. Now if this place would actually ban users who out themselves as terfs,anti trans,bigot,ect that would be great

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JoeDangIt posted...

The obvious solution is to have all sports leagues separated into weight divisions.

SergeantGander posted...

Just desegregate all sporting events. Problem solved.

Again

The "Male" leagues aren't segregated in the rules. Women biologically just can't compete

Only the womens leagues are segregated and they wouldn't exist if they weren't


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RIP women's sports
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shockthemonkey posted...

Wow what a random response that has nothing to do with your own argument

Because we're not going to come to any sort of agreement.

I say makes all sports completely inclusive, all humans invited, if you can make it, great.

Everyone wants to overcomplicate things with bullshit. My solution is simple and straightforward.

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Beefbud posted...

who is attacking trans women? is acknowledging that trans women have a biological advantage over cis women when it comes to physical ability an attack on trans women?

No one will answer these questions.

It's bizarre

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UnfairRepresent posted...

But put her in a cage fight against a natural born girl and she has a unfair huge biological advantage that destroys the sport and competition

hey man, all you gotta do to back that up is link the science saying after transitioning and being on hormones etc for a substantial amount of time where things like muscle mass and bone density change they still have a significant advantage.

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shockthemonkey posted...

Joe Biden saying fuck the TERFs is a good start to his presidency

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Let women athletes vote on it.

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ManicPlumber77 posted...

This. Bodybuilding especially. Given that feminizing HRT makes it so muscle mass degrades considerably, and needs to have twice the work put in that cis competitors would have to put in to achieve the same result, I really don't know why people are so against it. Are we really so inhuman as to be fearful of others, simply because their circumstance is not our own?

a few years back, some woman who competed against fallon fox ( transgender mma fighter) said that she had a significantly stronger grip any other woman she's ever fought. Then you have refs and Joe rogan saying born men naturally have bigger/thicker jaws, hands, bones, joints etc

Iit's a nightmare to police this all in regards to sports, and may take years. I don't know a solution to this, as I believe transgenders deserve to play sports on a professional level. I dunno if putting them their own category tonight against each other is right either, when it comes to transgender women

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pogo_rabid posted...

There wouldn't be women's teams in the first place. There would just be "teams". You can either competitive or you're not. If you're not the cream that rose to the top, then you should look for another profession.

You either:

A. Think top tier athlete women stand a snowballs chance in hell against top tier athlete men, which means you are objectively delusional. They have men who aren't even in top 100 completely crush world class top tier women athletes. Serena Williams got God stomped by a guy who isn't even top 100 and tennis is a sport I'd argue has less physical advantages for men over women than most. Stuff like sprinting, swimming, fighting, tackling, jumping...men dominate.

B. You are completely ok with destroying and dismantling female sports, which means you are ok with completely invalidating millions of female athletes just so a handful of male to female athletes can wreck the respective sport.

Thank God this isn't going to hold true at the Olympic level. If you've seen any documentaries about how far countries like Russia and others are willing to go to create a world class Olympic level athlete, you can bet your bottom dollar convincing an athlete to identify as a different gender so they can break world records is one of them.

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TERF turf wars

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pogo_rabid posted...

Too bad so sad, you're either born with it or you're not.

I'm under 6ft and you don't see me whining about them not making "Manlet NBA" a thing.

Yup.
Michael Phelps has a distinct biological advantage in the realm of swimming and instead of banning him from competition, we loaded him down with gold medals.

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ThePopcornKing posted...

hey man, all you gotta do to back that up is link the science saying after transitioning and being on hormones etc for a substantial amount of time where things like muscle mass and bone density change they still have a significant advantage.

Mary Gregory who instantly broke 9 biological female world records in one night with ease

As a male, Mary posted the following numbers pre HRT on her Instagram account

Squat - 408
Bench - 298
Deadlift 507
Total 1213
Bodyweight - 217

9 months after starting HRT. These numbers were what she got at the meet in question

Squat - 314
Bench - 233
Deadlift 424
Total 971
Bodyweight - 179.3

Now that's about a 20% drop in all her lifts after going on HRT, and about a 20% drop in bodyweight. That's to be expected as the body adapts to the new hormone levels. In powerlifting, we use the Wilks coefficient to determine the best lifter across all weight classes. It takes your total, and modifies it based on a mathematical formula to allow you to compare yourself against everyone else. Men and women use different formulas as their physiology is different.

Mary's Wilks score using the male data was 337. After 9 months of HRT, when Mary competed in the female division her score jumped up to 399. That's a 62 point jump (a 20% increase) in her abilities compared to her peers in less than a year. So in nine months, on HRT which reduces testosterone, muscle mass etc, Mary had gains the likes of which are only seen in brand new lifters who are still learning how to powerlift.

When I compared Mary's results to the database in Open Powerlifting, a website dedicated to recording statistics for all powerlifting federations around the world, here's what I got.

In the 40-44 age group, Mary's male ranking was at the 38th percentile. So better than average, but still middle of the pack. Using her numbers as a female, she moved into the 6th percentile. So top 10% in all of women's drug tested powerlifting in that age group. If all things were equal in the HRT process, we should have seen Mary's results put her in the 38th percentile of female lifters, but that clearly did not happen.

Once again, I have to stress that neither I, or my federation wants to ban lifters like Mary from competing. In fact one of our core beliefs is that if you can lift a barbell, and you aren't taking PED's, then you have a place with us. But it's very clear based on the numbers provided that Mary received a performance boost from transitioning from a male to a female lifter compared to her peer group. That's not at all fair to the rest of the lifters in that division.

tl;dr. She had a massive advantage due to biology


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I just hope no one gets seriously hurt and if they do, I hope they sue the ass off the governing bodies.

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shockthemonkey posted...

Its strange how youre just flailing around not saying anything of value because you think you have a universal answer that doesnt help anyone.

So you're bowing out of the discussion because you can't refute the benefits of my solution? Maybe when you're less emotional about it we can revisit the subject.

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shockthemonkey posted...

She lost as soon as she fought real competition and hasnt fought in years, how is she still peoples entire argument?

You've literally ignored every argument anyone made so far, and you have the gall to cherry pick Fallon Fox and claim its the entire argument?

No one Is saying no natural born woman will never beat a transwoman ever, they're saying a transgender woman will have an advantage biologically

and that's an undeniable fact

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The thing about injecting hormones is your levels can change.

I.e. "healthy" testosterone in males is a range of 300-1000 ng/dl.

Be hard pressed to find someone walking around naturally at 1000 ng/dl. Now different sporting authorities check for many substances, but one of the most commonly abused is testosterone.

If I want to beat the system, I can inject enough to be walking around at 1000 ng/dl, or if I'm aware of the testing window I can inject much more, and back it off as testing window nears.

The thing is testoerone levels will drop very quickly if my synthetic injections stop, as my natural production is shutdown. However, muscle mass that I've accumulated while injecting doesn't disappear overnight, let alone for a while. Not to mention, one of the benefits is enhanced recovery time, allowing a user to simply train more intensely, more frequently. Which at high levels of competition can be just as, if not more, beneficial than added size/strength in competition.

All this to say, hormones aren't as straight forward as given levels on a given day. There would have to be decisions made about how long HRT is required, how often hormones are tested. Who decides how long someone has to be "in transition" for before competing? How closely would they be monitored outside of competition?

Im not proposing any of this information to say trans athletes shouldn't be allowed in competition. Just wanted to present some of the issues that might need to be addressed going forward


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