Current Events > Biden sparks TERF war on twitter with gender discrimination order

(+) Yeah! (+)

Frolex posted...

We separate sports leagues by gender, not sex, otherwise we would be calling them "female's sports". So yes, you are telling one group of women they cannot exist women's sports.

This is disingenuous. We used the terms women sports and men sports decades before. Back then, sex and gender was commonly interchangeable as terms so using that as a 2021 representation of intent is disingenuous


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And OnlyTheTruth is suspended for the topic he made last night.

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CyricZ posted...

And OnlyTheTruth is suspended for the topic he made last night.

which one was that


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Flauros posted...

which one was that

The transphobic one (which is why I bring it up here).

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skermac posted...

so if arnold declared himself as trans in his prime eould ir be ok if he competed with other girls with all his muscles? just asking, im curious about your opinion

This probably wouldnt go the way you think. Bodybuilding isnt an athletic competition, its basically a beauty pageant based on the subjective opinion of judges. He would have the most muscle mass, but that doesnt mean he would be considered the most aesthetic female body. Mass is only one factor. Even as male he is considered probably the best of all time, but terms of muscle at 220lbs hes quite a bit smaller than the 275-300 bodybuilders of today.

For something a little more relevant, look up Janae Marie Kroc, who held powerlifting world records as a male, and is now looking to return to competing against men as a trans woman.

Her story overall is really interesting.

UnfairRepresent posted...

"male" sports aren't seperated. They are only male because women cannot compete in them. There is nothing in the NFL. NBA etc that says women can't compete. Many have tried. They are just physically inferior.

"male sports" don't exist. Well, maybe some leagues do somewhere, but the rest of the world is playing men's sports.

UnfairRepresent posted...

excluding transwomen's existence from one area of society.

hey, you're actually quoting me now instead of you're imaginary friend, gj

UnfairRepresent posted...

Several people have done so over and over in this topic. You ignore them all.

Your link compares sports performance between males and females. not between transwomen and ciswomen.

UnfairRepresent posted...

you literally ignored the part of my post about Mary Gregory just to go "Prove it!"

saying "I posted one name!" is not data about the average performance differences between transwomen and ciswomen

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Arnold won over Lou Ferrigno at the time who was actually much more massive than him.

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oh lord you didnt even look at it

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pinky0926 posted...

Yes but it's also insanely reductive and unhelpful for people to take a "if you have any point of contention on this issue you're a terf and a bigot and there's no room for discussion". This is a topic sports scientists, legal experts and sports governing body aren't anywhere near agreed on but somehow social academics have a clearcut answer that requires no further consideration? That should be a clue to anyone that maybe it's not as simple as "you're a bigot or you're not a bigot".

The group screaming "bigot" is exceptionally small. No changes will happen in the foreseeable future.

When they eventually do happen it won't be long before the difference in athletic performance between transwomen and cis women is seen as different. Then sporting regulation will quickly swoop in to rectify the failed experiment.

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UnfairRepresent posted...

oh lord you didnt even look at it

We both know I did, because if I didn't you would have posted the section that compared achievements of transwomen in sports with those of ciswomen instead of shitposting

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looked posted...

This probably wouldnt go the way you think. Bodybuilding isnt an athletic competition, its basically a beauty pageant based on the subjective opinion of judges. He would have the most muscle mass, but that doesnt mean he would be considered the most aesthetic female body. Mass is only one factor. Even as male he is considered probably the best of all time, but terms of muscle at 220lbs hes quite a bit smaller than the 275-300 bodybuilders of today.

I didn't get the feeling he was meaning bodybuilding, but sports in general

Tyranthraxus posted...

Arnold won over Lou Ferrigno at the time who was actually much more massive than him.

I think Arnold and Serge honestly had better physiques than Lou did, though Arnold did bully Lou which messed with his head during the competition

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Arnold intentionally gave Lou some bad advice that probably contributed in some way to him winning.

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People using made up hypotheticals of what would happen based on the fact they feel trans women are actually men? Yep. But hey, if they cared about being right they'd have already put in the work to not be bigots

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gunplagirl posted...

People using made up hypotheticals of what would happen based on the fact they feel trans women are actually men? Yep. But hey, if they cared about being right they'd have already put in the work to not be bigots

You have zero place in this discussion. Your only aim is to attack other users and this is consistently all you do on this message board. You clearly have zero clue what you are talking about and just scream bigot at people.

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TommyG663513 posted...

You have zero place in this discussion. Your only aim is to attack other users and this is consistently all you do on this message board. You clearly have zero clue what you are talking about and just scream bigot at people.

Are you trans? Do these policies affect you at all? Are you actually interested in women's athletics? Do you have any idea what the fuck you're talking about? Do the policies negatively impact you or those close to you? They don't. But they do benefit a minority group that you have zero understanding of, and you espouse opinions not based on facts or else extrapolate based on bad faith arguments (the "what if LeBron said he was a woman" hypotheticals that ignore the fact that no cis men are doing this), etc.

Basically? Your opposition to trans rights based on fictional scenarios isn't a coincidence.

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gunplagirl posted...

People using made up hypotheticals of what would happen based on the fact they feel trans women are actually men? Yep. But hey, if they cared about being right they'd have already put in the work to not be bigots

It has nothing to do with "feelings"

Just cold hard biology. What they "are" is a social question

their physical bodies are an empirical fact

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gunplagirl posted...

Are you trans? Do these policies affect you at all? Are you actually interested in women's athletics? Do you have any idea what the fuck you're talking about? Do the policies negatively impact you or those close to you? They don't. But they do benefit a minority group that you have zero understanding of, and you espouse opinions not based on facts or else extrapolate based on bad faith arguments (the "what if LeBron said he was a woman" hypotheticals that ignore the fact that no cis men are doing this), etc.

Basically? Your opposition to trans rights based on fictional scenarios isn't a coincidence.

So basically you've boiled your argument down to ad hominem and straw man tactics?

I never once said any of the arguments you said I did. Not even close. I'm honestly very open to the idea of just letting MtFs compete in female divisions and letting the experiment play out. I just think it is silly to act like the is zero way a MtF would ever have an advantage over a cis female. As advanced as hormone therapy is it can't account for absolutely everything that a cis female would go through.

You need to calm down. All you do is spit vitriol in every single trans topic you ever step into and it's just sad to see. You are by far the least civil person in these topics and there is no reason for it.

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Oh, and feel free to Ctrl+f all my posts on that archive site, I've not called any users on this board a bigot in 6+ months.

Saying their logic is steeped in bigotry because it is not based on facts is wholly separate from calling someone a bigot, btw. But you understand how that works, at least I'm assuming you're sharp enough to understand that much.

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gunplagirl posted...

Oh, and feel free to Ctrl+f all my posts on that archive site, I've not called any users on this board a bigot in 6+ months.

Saying their logic is steeped in bigotry because it is not based on facts is wholly separate from calling someone a bigot, btw. But you understand how that works, at least I'm assuming you're sharp enough to understand that much.

Yeah you need to work on being more civil. Can you conduct an argument without resorting to insults?

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Frolex posted...

Your link compares sports performance between males and females. not between transwomen and ciswomen.

It does. Well more specifically, it says people who go through puberty as men maintain an advantage over people who didn't even after they transition.

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Tyranthraxus posted...

Arnold intentionally gave Lou some bad advice that probably contributed in some way to him winning.

I can see the bad advice making Lou win 2nd, but he was 3rd place. Pumping Iron was biased in not giving the man who got 2nd place much screen time

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shockthemonkey posted...

Itll never stop being weird that cis men who dont care about womens sports always dominate these conversations.

So an ad hominem argument?

How do you know they're cis men and how do you know they don't care about women's sports?

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ManicPlumber77 posted...

LGBTQIAP++

What's the P for? There are two pluses now?!

TommyG663513 posted...

So basically you've boiled your argument down to ad hominem and straw man tactics?

I never once said any of the arguments you said I did. Not even close. I'm honestly very open to the idea of just letting MtFs compete in female divisions and letting the experiment play out. I just think it is silly to act like the is zero way a MtF would ever have an advantage over a cis female. As advanced as hormone therapy is it can't account for absolutely everything that a cis female would go through.

You need to calm down. All you do is spit vitriol in every single trans topic you ever step into and it's just sad to see. You are by far the least civil person in these topics and there is no reason for it.

Wah wah wahhhhh

I'm not doing strawman arguments, it's the people unironically saying that LeBron could just put on a dress and compete in the WNBA that are using those.

I'm not doing ad hominem. If a guy's calling black people some sort of hominid species, then calling him a racist isn't an attack, it's ascribing a description to an observed truth.

Basically, get dunked on and maybe don't insult trans people by saying they have no place in calling out transphobia. Shutting down the voices of the oppressed IS a form of oppression, to which I can say you most certainly are guilty of attempting. Again, not an attack. It's an observable truth that you are shutting down the only active trans voice on a trans issue.

This reminds me of those pictures of women's rights panels where all the members in the meeting are white bald guys and maybe one black guy. You know, diversity and definitely inclusive of the voices of people who are affected by the outcome of the panel's policies.

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TommyG663513 posted...

So basically you've boiled your argument down to ad hominem and straw man tactics?

Sums up the whole topic really

"Here's done scientific facts "
"You suck! What you're saying is no different than RACISM! Bigot!"

for 350 posts...

People flat out ignore every point made and stone cold refuse to say what they want to be true has no bearing on what is true

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gunplagirl posted...

Wah wah wahhhhh

I'm not doing strawman arguments, it's the people unironically saying that LeBron could just put on a dress and compete in the WNBA that are using those.

I'm not doing ad hominem. If a guy's calling black people some sort of hominid species, then calling him a racist isn't an attack, it's ascribing a description to an observed truth.

Basically, get dunked on and maybe don't insult trans people by saying they have no place in calling out transphobia. Shutting down the voices of the oppressed IS a form of oppression, to which I can say you most certainly are guilty of attempting. Again, not an attack. It's an observable truth that you are shutting down the only active trans voice on a trans issue.

This reminds me of those pictures of women's rights panels where all the members in the meeting are white bald guys and maybe one black guy. You know, diversity and definitely inclusive of the voices of people who are affected by the outcome of the panel's policies.

You started your post with "Wah wah wahhhhh"

I stopped reading after that, because that is such an incredibly disrespectful way to engage with someone and I'm not going to take the time to read your argument and respond to it if you can't be civil on a very basic level.

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TommyG663513 posted...

Yeah you need to work on being more civil. Can you conduct an argument without resorting to insults?

Sir, please calm down. You're getting far too emotional, you're starting to sound like the boss from Grandma's Boy when he went all robot mode at the end.

TommyG663513 posted...

So an ad hominem argument?

How do you know they're cis men and how do you know they don't care about women's sports?

That's not ad hominem, you can't just shout ad hominem as though it is some fucking Exodia trump card that automatically wins.

And if you think anyone believes that you asked "well how do you know they're cis?!" as a genuine question, just. Stop it.

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Man, it must really suck to be disrespected in a topic like this. I cant imagine how hard that must be for you

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shockthemonkey posted...

Do you think that was an argument or an observation?

Do you think people don't totally understand what you are doing?

Your observation is an argument. How do you know people commenting are cis males AND that they don't care about female athletics?

You don't know that and you are just labeling others a certain way, because it makes you feel better and let's you avoid confronting the reality of their argument.

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TommyG663513 posted...

You started your post with "Wah wah wahhhhh"

I stopped reading after that, because that is such an incredibly disrespectful way to engage with someone and I'm not going to take the time to read your argument and respond to it if you can't be civil on a very basic level.

"You aren't licking the boots of your oppressors, how rude"

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gunplagirl posted...

Sir, please calm down. You're getting far too emotional, you're starting to sound like the boss from Grandma's Boy when he went all robot mode at the end.

That's not ad hominem, you can't just shout ad hominem as though it is some fucking Exodia trump card that automatically wins.

And if you think anyone believes that you asked "well how do you know they're cis?!" as a genuine question, just. Stop it.

Yeah you need to try and understand the concept of civility

I've watched you have countless meltdowns in these topics. I hope you get the help that you need to keep yourself more calm.

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shockthemonkey posted...

Its really funny watching you claim that an observation is an argument. It makes it very obvious that youre not engaging anything in good faith.

Lol just no dude. Observations aren't objective fact. It'd be more accurate to label it your perception.

What is your stance here? Should we allow MtFs in female divisions in Athletics? Is it possible there could be an unfair advantage in favor of MtFs?

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TommyG663513 posted...

You have zero place in this discussion.

TommyG663513 posted...

You clearly have zero clue what you are talking about

I don't know who said it, but someone in this topic said the following:

Yeah you need to try and understand the concept of civility

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gunplagirl posted...

"You aren't licking the boots of your oppressors, how rude"

There's a big difference between asking you to not make crying noises at someone and them asking you to lick their boots.

You are an incredibly dramatic person.

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TommyG663513 posted...

You are an incredibly dramatic person.

Hey let's be civil.

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Dathrowed1 posted...

I didn't get the feeling he was meaning bodybuilding, but sports in general

Its still a bad example because Arnold wasnt an elite athlete, his physique wouldnt guarantee that he would dominate womens sports. Even if if you look at his brief powerlifting career, his numbers were that impressive, and wouldnt be good enough to win womens competitions.

shockthemonkey posted...

Its really funny watching you claim that an observation is an argument. It makes it very obvious that youre not engaging anything in good faith.

So how about you respond to the not observation based arguments?

UnfairRepresent posted...

No... no we don't.

"male" sports aren't seperated. They are only male because women are not skilled enough to compete in them. There is nothing in the NFL. NBA etc that says women can't compete. Many have tried. They are just physically inferior.

There is nothing that said women can't be Navy Seals, just no girl could do it.

The womens leagues were created so women could still play sports.

Putting biological male bodies in those sports because they identify as a female gender, destroys the sport.

excluding transwomen's existence from one area of society.

You're advocating allowing biological male bodies to compete in womens sports because of what gender they identify as socially.

The same problem still arises.

Several people have done so over and over in this topic. You ignore them all.
you literally ignored the part of my post about Mary Gregory just to go "Prove it!"

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

We have shown that under testosterone suppression regimes typically used in clinical settings, and which comfortably exceed the requirements of sports federations for inclusion of transgender women in female sports categories by reducing testosterone levels to well below the upper tolerated limit, evidence for loss of the male performance advantage, established by testosterone at puberty and translating in elite athletes to a 1050% performance advantage, is lacking.

Rather, the data show that strength, lean body mass, muscle size and bone density are only trivially affected. The reductions observed in muscle mass, size, and strength are very small compared to the baseline differences between males and females in these variables, and thus, there are major performance and safety implications in sports where these attributes are competitively significant.

These data significantly undermine the delivery of fairness and safety presumed by the criteria set out in transgender inclusion policies, particularly given the stated prioritization of fairness as an overriding objective (for the IOC).

If those policies are intended to preserve fairness, inclusion and the safety of biologically female athletes, sporting organizations may need to reassess their policies regarding inclusion of transgender women.

Why do you think not 1 female athlete can make it in the NFL , MLB, NBA etc?

Also as I said niether you nor anyone else on your "side" has the balls to say that whatever you want to be true has no effect on what the truth is.

I'm the only honest person in this topic. My attitude is based on the evidence and facts, not on posturing and finger wagging.

You ran away from all that just to insult people.

You refuse to say that what you want to be true has no bearing on truth and you refuse to acknowledge Mary Gregory exists while yelling at people for not acknowledging transgender womens accomplishments

You're a textbook case of bad faith arguing

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CyricZ posted...

I don't know who said it, but someone in this topic said the following:

CyricZ posted...

Hey let's be civil.

Yes, I wish he would be civil. Instead he's just using ad hominems to deny any dissenting opinions.

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Can transgender women give birth once they identify as women? Are there biological differences or aren't there?

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Seems like a lot of articles are disingenuously singling out the part about athletics, when the executive order did so much more than that. It protects bathroom rights, prison rights, ect as well. Pieces of shit are bringing attention to the sports part in an attempt to attack the whole thing, because that's the only part that's even debatable.

The EO does a lot more good than harm. If you don't like the part about athletics, push for amending it with another EO, not repealing it altogether. Those that do otherwise are trash tier humans.

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gunplagirl posted...

Yes, I wish he would be civil. Instead he's just using ad hominems to deny any dissenting opinions.

So is it me or you who keeps yelling at people and labeling their arguments as bigoted?

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Conflict posted...

This shit didn't get Trump elected. Stop pretending otherwise

I'm all for everyone in this topic to stop pretending obvious things aren't true v_V

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TommyG663513 posted...

So is it me or you who keeps yelling at people and labeling their arguments as bigoted?

Whoa now, you're putting words in my mouth. Strawman! Be civil, don't use fallacies.

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Master Kazuya posted...

Can transgender women give birth once they identify as women? Are there biological differences or aren't there?

Of course they can give birth to a child. If you deny otherwise then you are just being bigoted. Trans women are women after all. Why would you think that a woman wouldn't be able to give birth?

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TommyG663513 posted...

So is it me or you who keeps yelling at people and labeling their arguments as bigoted?

Hey now there's no need for such incivility.

TommyG663513 posted...

Of course they can give birth to a child. If you deny otherwise then you are just being bigoted. Trans women are women after all. Why would you think that a woman wouldn't be able to give birth?

If only you would argue more civilly.

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gunplagirl posted...

Whoa now, you're putting words in my mouth. Strawman! Be civil, don't use fallacies.

Ok bad faith poster. Now you're just mimicking me to try and ridicule me. Yup you sure are proving me wrong lol.

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