Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 329: There's No Debate

(+) Yeah! (+)

Yeah, the problem with Trump is him saying stuff like "you'd be in jail" right to Hillary Clinton's face while in a debate. It's the assumption of guilt without due process from the literal president of the United States that causes all these problems.

---

Prosecute Trump iff the investigations and evidence warrants it. Do not let him walk free of consequences simply because he was president, to let the nation "heal" or whatever other bullshit. Do not normalize the behavior like it was after Nixon, Reagan, and Bush.

Like, when Clinton was impeached by Republicans, it was partisan sure, but it was legitimate because he did, in fact, commit perjury.
---

The self-pardon is an open constitutional question. It's hard for me to imagine SCOTUS literally upholding his ability to do it (because they would then be explicitly saying that the president is above the law), but I could definitely see them refuse to accept that anyone has standing to sue like with the emoluments cases.

---

red13n posted...

It is very unlikely Trump will be prosecuted for anything. People will want to move on more than anything.

The IRS might come after him but that is the best you could hope for.

*cracks knuckles*

---

For the people who are saying that "Democrats" shouldn't be investigating Trump's corruption...who should be prioritizing it? Where does the ball start rolling on it?

Is Biden just supposed to nominate an Attorney General who is completely neutral and has zero opinion on investigating the potential of past crimes in their very department? That doesn't seem right!

---

The ball is already rolling in New York isn't it?

---

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

For the people who are saying that "Democrats" shouldn't be investigating Trump's corruption...who should be prioritizing it? Where does the ball start rolling on it?

Is Biden just supposed to nominate an Attorney General who is completely neutral and has zero opinion on investigating the potential of past crimes in their very department? That doesn't seem right!

It's fine if they have an opinion on it, Biden just shouldn't be discussing with them what that opinion is when he's interviewing potential candidates.

---

23 covid cases have been linked to Trump's Minnesota rallies:

https://twitter.com/thedailybeast/status/1317647865691426816

---

Forceful_Dragon posted...

The ball is already rolling in New York isn't it?

Are you talking about his tax return stuff? If so, that's only skimming the surface. My question is more about how do you go about assessing the damage done at the federal level to the agencies themselves.

---

LordoftheMorons posted...

It's fine if they have an opinion on it, Biden just shouldn't be discussing with them what that opinion is when he's interviewing potential candidates.

I mean not knowing the strategy of the person you're giving the job seems even worse, and also there is no universe where this occurs. They are at least going to have a general idea of what the person they're appointing intends to do. What you are asking for is the appearance of neutrality, or for Biden to make a completely uninformed decision.

like is Biden just going to pretend to be shocked when their AG announces an investigation and you're going to buy it?

---

Youd need something actually solid though, some actual evidence of a federal offense.

You cant just say we are investigating Donald Trump. For crimes.
---

If Trump loses, especially in a landslide, his ensuing hissy fit will be so pathetic that the part of the country that wouldn't want him in jail would be too embarrassed to defend him. That's why I disagree with the notion that the public sentiment would favor simply moving on from this presidency. Public sentiment will want him punished, both for whatever crimes are dug up and for him disgracing the country for the last four years.

---

Jakyl25 posted...

Youd need something actually solid though, some actual evidence of a federal offense.

You cant just say we are investigating Donald Trump. For crimes.

Is there not already enough suspicion to warrant an investigation? Keeping in mind that past investigations have already been hampered by incompetence and corruption. We know this.

---

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I mean not knowing the strategy of the person you're giving the job seems even worse, and also there is no universe where this occurs. They are at least going to have a general idea of what the person they're appointing intends to do. What you are asking for is the appearance of neutrality, or for Biden to make a completely uninformed decision.

like is Biden just going to pretend to be shocked when their AG announces an investigation and you're going to buy it?

It's not a matter of him being shocked or expecting it or whatever. What's important is that Biden is not the one directing it, which would include not factoring in a potential AG's stance on prosecuting Trump into his pick.

---

CaptainOfCrush posted...

If Trump loses, especially in a landslide, his ensuing hissy fit will be so pathetic that the part of the country that wouldn't want him in jail would be too embarrassed to defend him. That's why I disagree with the notion that the public sentiment would favor simply moving on from this presidency. Public sentiment will want him punished, both for whatever crimes are dug up and for him disgracing the country for the last four years.

Honestly Trump already whines about how much of a victim he is more than any person in existence. I'll be very curious to see if him literally being a loser will make people realize he's been acting like one all along!

---

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Is there not already enough suspicion to warrant an investigation? Keeping in mind that past investigations have already been hampered by incompetence and corruption. We know this.

It would probably have to be another independent counsel at that point.

Coming in 2022, the Holder Report
---

LordoftheMorons posted...

It's not a matter of him being shocked or expecting it or whatever. What's important is that Biden is not the one directing it, which would include not factoring in a potential AG's stance on prosecuting Trump into his pick.

It is impossible for Biden to be this neutral when he makes his pick and I'm sorry but it just seems naive to think otherwise

---

Jakyl25 posted...

It would probably have to be another independent counsel at that point.

Coming in 2022, the Holder Report

First of all, the Mueller Report came about because Democrats called for it.

Second of all, it wasn't actually independent and we saw how the AG was still able to influence it.

This stuff doesn't spring fully-formed from a vaccuum!

---

Aaron Coleman update: the little fucker is now threatening to caucus with the GOP

https://amp.kansascity.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/melinda-henneberger/article246494440.html

---

LordoftheMorons posted...

Aaron Coleman update: the little fucker is now threatening to caucus with the GOP

https://amp.kansascity.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/melinda-henneberger/article246494440.html

His district is entitled to a representative of their choice. Democrat, Republican, Communist, whatever. If they wanted to vote in Joseph Stalin they would have the right to do it. The Republican Party respects the people's right to choose their representation and I would expect them to honor the results of the election.

---

Regarding this thing about the President not getting involved in law enforcement - that really shouldn't be the way things work unless we amend the Constitution. All federal law enforcement is done under the President's authority. The Presidential election is the only means the People have to hold the Department of Justice responsible. If you don't want the President to do his job of overseeing law enforcement, we need to have some other mechanism to make the DOJ accountable to the People.

---

LordoftheMorons posted...

The self-pardon is an open constitutional question. It's hard for me to imagine SCOTUS literally upholding his ability to do it (because they would then be explicitly saying that the president is above the law), but I could definitely see them refuse to accept that anyone has standing to sue like with the emoluments cases.

If there's a criminal case brought notwithstanding the pardon, there should be no question that the parties (the United States and President Trump) have the standing to get a ruling on whether the case can proceed. If there isn't a criminal case brought and someone just wants SCOTUS to answer a hypothetical, yeah, they aren't going to do that. It's not their job and probably beyond their jurisdiction, per their own precedent.

---

Expanding on this a bit further, I think President Ford handled it right. If there actually is evidence of criminal acts on Trump's part, then it is Biden's duty to appoint an AG who will investigate and prosecute that. In his capacity as the nation's chief law enforcement officer, he must not give Trump special treatment because of politics.

But, in his capacity as the dispenser of mercy - a duty modeled after the equivalent pardon power held by the King - Biden may pardon Trump for political reasons. And he probably should.

---

MalcolmMasher posted...

Edit: And with regard to pardons for offenses that have not yet been charged or committed, I think that's the kind of issue which a 6-3 conservative court headed by Roberts will have a powerful desire to avoid reaching a conclusion on.

May have missed this being addressed but this has already been done.

Ford's pardon of Nixon was for "all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9, 1974."

Unless you specifically meant could such a thing be successfully challenged legally.

---

I get the feeling the people who actually go around saying "Trump 2020" and things like that are a vocal minority but who knows.

---

Btw two A-rated polls have come back in North Carolina with Cunningham only up +4 and +1, officially moving the race down to the second closest in 538s model (only Iowa is closer).

Good job, you fucking jackass.

---

TheRock1525 posted...

Btw two A-rated polls have come back in North Carolina with Cunningham only up +4 and +1, officially moving the race down to the second closest in 538s model (only Iowa is closer).

Good job, you fucking jackass.

You have a lot of hostility. Take a breath. This isn't resetera. They don't exist for your goals.

---

The last Siena poll was only +5 so that probably didnt make too much of a difference, it would be the +1 doing the heavy lifting. FWIW its the same projected margin as Georgia and Maine and slightly better chances than the latter so its not too bad (though I maintain that Maine has likely been overfit).

---

Reg posted...

Prosecute Trump iff the investigations and evidence warrants it. Do not let him walk free of consequences simply because he was president, to let the nation "heal" or whatever other bullshit. Do not normalize the behavior like it was after Nixon, Reagan, and Bush.

This nation can't heal. It's just not possible at this point. Trump cultists are just too far gone. They're never going to turn around and say "Well, without Trump in office I guess we don't have to hate liberals for wanting things like same sex couples having the right to get married and college education and healthcare not putting anyone in lifetime debt." They're not going to suddenly wake up, turn around and try to embrace our differences. And we shouldn't embrace theirs, especially while they include racism, homophobia, xenophobia, sexism, and so much more detestable bullshit.

---

Corrik7 posted...

You have a lot of hostility. Take a breath. This isn't resetera. They don't exist for your goals.

What are you even on about?

---

Germany healed eventually. I think it can be done, but it definitely won't be immediate.

---

red sox 777 posted...

Regarding this thing about the President not getting involved in law enforcement - that really shouldn't be the way things work unless we amend the Constitution. All federal law enforcement is done under the President's authority.

there's no trias politica in the US?

---

Germany got demolished and was forced to rebuild though, and the literal divisions it caused are still healing today. It is important to remember also that Hitlers rise to power was not a straight upwards trajectory. He suffered defeats and setbacks, but still got there in the end. Thats why this really needs to be a crushing blow to the Republicans or someone competent if not Trump himself will just come back and seize power later.

---

Peace___Frog posted...

Germany healed eventually. I think it can be done, but it definitely won't be immediate.

Germany healed by publicly acknowledging what they had done under Nazi rule and taking distinct legislative steps to help ensure it wouldn't happen again. Somehow I don't see that happening in this case.

---

This philosophy is sometimes discussed in these topics - I completely agree that "national healing" can be aided/expedited by progressive policies that actually care for people.

Yeah, Medicare for All would be great, but fuck, you can start healing the nation by expanding Medicare to cover people age 60+ (roll it forward five years, basically) and by offering reduced Social Security benefits at age 60 instead of 62.

35% of people already decide to take the reduced SS benefits at age 62 anyway. If you knock it down to age 60 and couple it with Medicare, we'd have most people retiring at age 60. They'd be healthier, more financially secure, and thus less likely to throw their lot in with someone like Trump. And they'd be fucking retired so their positions could actually be opened up to all the 30-somethings that have been hammered in the job market since they entered it.

I don't think these are some crazy-ambitious goals, either - the fact that they feel fucking impossible is what's truly sad.

---

Fwiw i agree with you both. I'm just trying to remain optimistic.

We could also point to the "healing" after our own Civil War but we all know that it wasn't a true healing, only patching over some of the obvious wounds. That lack of ballsiness from the north during reconstruction is directly responsible for a lot of the shit we find ourselves in today.

---

Peace___Frog posted...

Germany healed eventually. I think it can be done, but it definitely won't be immediate.

...Germany healed because the Nazis were publicly tied and executed for their crimes so they weren't around anymore. Or fled the country to go into hiding. That won't happen in this case.

When did politics get to the point where both Republicans and Democrats see the whole thing in good vs. evil terms?

---

My guess would be it started whenever the right began to effectively politicize Christianity - the Reagan era? Things back then weren't nearly as polarized, but I assume the seeds were sowed then.

---

Peace___Frog posted...

We could also point to the "healing" after our own Civil War but we all know that it wasn't a true healing, only patching over some of the obvious wounds. That lack of ballsiness from the north during reconstruction is directly responsible for a lot of the shit we find ourselves in today.

It wasn't just a "lack of ballsiness" but a concerted effort by both the North and South to ignore the problem in order to retain political power and capital. So keep that in mind...

---

LinkMarioSamus posted...

When did politics get to the point where both Republicans and Democrats see the whole thing in good vs. evil terms?

When a black man was elected president and racists lost their minds.

---

Can you guys believe that the son of a white woman from Kansas caused all that?!

---

Not_an_Owl posted...

Germany healed by publicly acknowledging what they had done under Nazi rule and taking distinct legislative steps to help ensure it wouldn't happen again. Somehow I don't see that happening in this case.

Even then, the country was ripped in two for 40+ more years

---

When one side defined itself entirely by racism, regressive me-first thinking, tribalism, supporting the class divide, science-phobia, corporate power, staunch out-dated religious laws, authoritarianism, theocracy, and basically everything that anyone with half a lick of sense would consider bad things and the other side could just be like at least we arent that bad! Without actually having to define themselves at all.

When both parties told the working class to go fuck themselves tbh

---

DoomTheGyarados posted...

When both parties told the working class to go fuck themselves tbh

That happened back in 1776 but they used to call them just slaves back then.

---

Well that's not wrong. But 200 years later they decided to do it again.

---

Its not like they ever stopped doing it.

Well they were forced to for a bit when unions became strong and actually got a lot accomplished.

But then the worst president in history, Ronald Reagan, ushered in things that are still impacting us today.

---