Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 315: Defund the Po...

(+) Yeah! (+)

I'm pretty sure the modern use of "neoliberal" came about because some dumbasses heard "neoconservative" and thought "hey that sounds cool, let's steal it"

I will not be convinced otherwise, even in the face of proof

I admit I have heard the term a lot and understand it contextually but it may in fact not make sense.

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Neoliberals, like neoconservatives, love the military industrial complex instead of wanting to dismantle it like proper libertarians or progressives
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NFUN posted...

i still don't understand the popular usage of "neoliberal" because as far as I understand it, the "liberalism" it calls back to is classical liberalism which is basically what libertarianism evolved from

Yes, this is correct. It referred back to a return of classical liberalism and what we would presently refer to as (economic) libertarianism - free market capitalism, privatization, deregulation, austerity, etc.

It was a contrast to the Keynesian approach to economics which had taken hold in the post-Great Depression-and-WWII era. Like it was originally applied to Thatcher and Reagan.

The extent to which you could/would call the modern Democratic party "neoliberal" in the actual meaning of the term would be its general (certainly not universal, you can see divides within the party like Sherrod Brown) support towards free trade/globalization like with NAFTA or the Clinton administration's willingness to pass welfare reform and repeal key regulations like Glass-Steagal.

So while some tendencies certainly exist within the Demcoratic party there, in reality I'd say it's the Republican Party that neoliberalism better describes. They also have the neocons as well (which is defined in its hawkish military/spread democracy/"peace through strength" stuff and its fervent anti-communism) of course.

But I don't think most people think of it like that and just throw the term around and to be honest I'm not sure what is meant by it other than "people I disagree with" like NFUN said.

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Jakyl25 posted...

Neoliberals, like neoconservatives, love the military industrial complex instead of wanting to dismantle it like proper libertarians or progressives

Yeah to put it simply (and reductively), neoliberals and neoconservatives think the system is fine at its core, but they differ on various limits.

Like the person whose tweet was shared here that was like I just need Joe to win so I can stop worrying about politics and can enjoy the simple pleasures of a sunrise again.

They think the system is fine, theyre just afraid its going to be used against them.

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Everything I don't like is neoliberal, and the more I don't like it the more neoliberal it is...!

The people who call themselves neolibs online are not really neoliberals in the classical sense (which would be like Thatcher and Reagan), but instead are basically people who are reclaiming the term since it is used at as a catchall criticism of anything to the right of socialism nowadays, regardless of whether that makes sense. These are the people Suprak is talking about, who are generally pretty left socially, and are center-left economically (basically they think that both governments and the free market play an important role). I generally agree with most of what they typically believe.

Or, to put it another way: taco trucks on every corner.

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I am genuinely baffled by the confusion over the terms neoliberal, neoconservative, and reactionary in this topic. They are all clearly defined terms that mean exactly what they mean. The Republicans are not more neoliberal than the Democrats, the Democratic establishment is basically a textbook example of neoliberals and has been since the Clinton administration at least. The idea that people do not know what the term means would be like claiming that roads are socialism...oh wait...yeah, nevermind, nobody has any idea what any term means.

I'd certainly be willing to say that the Third Way/Clinton-era Democratic party turned to neoliberalism in the wake of the party getting blown out by Reagan in the 80s. Because Reagan was among the leading politicians implementing neoliberalism so they figured that must be what the voters want if he's winning 500 electoral votes with it.

Post-Great Recession with Obama and now Biden I think that's a lot less true. The tendencies remain - both by incumbents literally from those days or genuine belief in some cases - and certainly the Obama administration has passed or supported policies that would qualify as neoliberal (the sequester, though it should be noted that was basically forced upon us by an obstructionist Republican Party and was never meant to be what actually happened) or, say, the TPP.

But on the whole policies like the stimulus and trying to put back some of the regulations on the financial sector was literally the opposite of neoliberalism.

When you think of privatization, deregulation, and austerity which party comes to mind first as the ones pushing for it? I rest my case. That is - A G A I N - not to say there are no members of the Democratic party who don't hold neoliberal positions, there absolutely are but let's be real now. The term has been distorted in the past decade or so to include people pushing for policies that move away from the ideals of neoliberalism when compared to the actual status quo simply because they don't go far enough. That's kinda silly.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Everything I don't like is neoliberal, and the more I don't like it the more neoliberal it is...!

The people who call themselves neolibs online are not really neoliberals in the classical sense (which would be like Thatcher and Reagan), but instead are basically people who are reclaiming the term since it is used at as a catchall criticism of anything to the right of socialism nowadays, regardless of whether that makes sense. These are the people Suprak is talking about, who are generally pretty left socially, and are center-left economically (basically they think that both governments and the free market play an important role). I generally agree with most of what they typically believe.

This is exactly with what I just said in the post before.

and the bolded part is funny because I almost named you as a textbook example. You like left wing social things, but generally speaking you are against any structural change such as Universal Healthcare and free college that would require a realignment of our economy.

Not to belabor the point and I know youve reneged on support, but Bolivia is a great example of it! You were all in on the OAS report and coup in Bolivia because the experts told you it was the right thing to do, nevermind the fact that it was literally just an (obvious) ploy to undermine a successful socialist government.

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it's particularly confusing for me because in dutch, "liberal" is still only used in the classical sense (i.e. economic liberalism). the word "leftists" can mean social democrats, socialists, communists. but never liberals.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

This is exactly with what I just said in the post before.

and the bolded part is funny because I almost named you as a textbook example. You like left wing social things, but generally speaking you are against any structural change such as Universal Healthcare and free college that would require a realignment of our economy.

Not to belabor the point and I know youve reneged on support, but Bolivia is a great example of it! You were all in on the OAS report and coup in Bolivia because the experts told you it was the right thing to do, nevermind the fact that it was literally just an (obvious) ploy to undermine a successful socialist government.

Yeah, I think neoliberal is one of the more useful terms we have. It has a pretty well-defined meaning that doesn't assume a simple left-right axis. LOTM is basically an archetypal neoliberal. I think my views have come to be almost diametrically opposite to neoliberalism.

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

it's particularly confusing for me because in dutch, "liberal" is still only used in the classical sense (i.e. economic liberalism). the word "leftists" can mean social democrats, socialists, communists. but never liberals.

This is literally how far right the US is on the global scale.

Or, I guess to put it another way. The way neoliberal gets tossed around these days tends to assume a false dilemma of "socialism or unfettered capitalism" but ignores mixed economies and lumps their supporters in with unregulated capitalism.

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Reg posted...

This is literally how far right the US is on the global scale.

Economically sure. But not socially.

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

it's particularly confusing for me because in dutch, "liberal" is still only used in the classical sense (i.e. economic liberalism). the word "leftists" can mean social democrats, socialists, communists. but never liberals.

That's a much better usage. The US liberal/conservative thing is super arbitrary and confusing. Really, one of the worst things about the US political system is that it's imposed a left/right axis on our language to the extent that people have trouble even imagining a reality beyond that described by the axis.


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red sox 777 posted...

That's a much better usage. The US liberal/conservative thing is super arbitrary and confusing. Really, one of the worst things about the US political system is that it's imposed a left/right axis on our language to the extent that people have trouble even imagining a reality beyond that described by the axis.

Chomsky in Manufacturing Consent covers this very well. The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum

https://www.newsweek.com/kamala-harris-healthcare-medicare-all-bernie-sanders-1455106

But to piggyback on an earlier discussion, this is the kind of reason that arguments like "her record is very progressive" or "voted with Bernie 93% of the time" do not hold weight with some people. Someone without conviction will always be easily compromised into betraying ideals in favor of the path the leads them to power, which is serving power.

More "saying the quiet part out loud" honesty: https://twitter.com/JStein_WaPo/status/1293905571561734144

"So much of the Democratic asks are really liberal left wishlists we don't want to have -- voting rights, and aid to aliens, and so forth. That's not our game."

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Oh, remember our newest almost-certain-to-go-to-the-House Q believer? Add "9/11 truther" to her resume: https://twitter.com/ehananoki/status/1293951126950285318

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And LotM mentioned it but of course the birtherism president hops on the Kamala Harris birtherism lie.

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wow I didn't know I never wanted to hear mike pence say the words "well I've got some red meat for you"

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https://www.inquirer.com/politics/election/pennsylvania-mail-voting-deadlines-post-office-lawsuit-20200813.html

Welp

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Not to take away from it but it's telling I saw this from Woj (an NBA reporter)

like damn he's dropping USPS news now

But yes, holy shit that is extremely alarming.

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Edit: This is hardly enough but it's at least slightly positive PA news but I expect Trump/GOP will challenge this somehow: https://twitter.com/marceelias/status/1294075325727543304

PA agrees in a court filing to enjoin its "received by" deadline for mail-in ballots and will now count any ballot postmarked by Election Day and received by the third day following the election.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

https://www.inquirer.com/politics/election/pennsylvania-mail-voting-deadlines-post-office-lawsuit-20200813.html

Welp

If I was more of a betting man, I might put some money on Trump winning right now.

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GentlemanGamer posted...

But to piggyback on an earlier discussion, this is the kind of reason that arguments like "her record is very progressive" or "voted with Bernie 93% of the time" do not hold weight with some people. Someone without conviction will always be easily compromised into betraying ideals in favor of the path the leads them to power, which is serving power.

this dilemma goes away if the people take power into their own hands via direct action, forcing those without conviction to serve them!

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You're never gonna guess how Donald Trump is voting this year

https://twitter.com/jimsciutto/status/1294083174436417541

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https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1294038486455062529

She literally said concerns.

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"I have concerns, Mr. Postmaster. And they're concerning. Yep. Real concerning concerns. Okay, have a nice day!"

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https://twitter.com/TheSimpsons/status/1294287342144872449?s=19

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David,

Kamala Harris is the meanest, most horrible, most disrespectful, MOST LIBERAL of anyone in the U.S. Senate, and I cannot believe that Joe Biden would pick her as his running mate.

Everything were fighting for is on the line right now, David.

These two corrupt career politicians have made it clear that they want to protect sanctuary cities, protect criminals, take away your Second Amendment rights, and DESTROY America.

Im calling on my best supporters to step up to the front lines and FIGHT BACK. This is SO important that Ive upped the stakes.

FOR ONE HOUR ONLY: ALL GIFTS WILL BE 700%-MATCHED.

This offer is only available for the NEXT HOUR, David. After that, your personalized 700%-MATCH link will no longer be valid.

Ever since the beginning of July I went from receiving maybe 1 Trump Email a week to TEN trump emails a DAY and they have become increasingly unhinged.

I also don't understand how campaign donations are supposedly being "700% matched". Matched by who? If I decided to donate $100 do they expect me to believe there is someone who is just WAITING to donate $700, but ONLY if a donation is first received from me specifically?

I also love how the emails themselves contradict themselves from e-mail to email. Every once in awhile they will call me out and say "we notice that we have a lifetime of $0 support from you, Trump needs your help!". And then the next e-mail will say "Trump knows that you are one of his best and most devoted supporters and so he is extending this one of a lifetime opportunity to you".

Really? I'm one of the best and most devoted supporters but you just said an hour ago that you noticed that i've never submitted a donation? \

The bottom line is that I recommend everyone sign up for the trump e-mails because they are borderline comedy gold.

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man i'm impressed that biden is capable of all these feats from his basement

hurting god, destroying america

Forceful_Dragon posted...

Really? I'm one of the best and most devoted supporters but you just said an hour ago that you noticed that i've never submitted a donation?

they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

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huh Marge Simpson is trending #1 on twitter what's this about

https://twitter.com/TheSimpsons/status/1294287342144872449

... well okay I guess
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...do you have Snrkiko ignored for some reason?

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dammit

I only posted it since I was in the middle of watching an episode of the Simpsons while I came across it and I didn't think anyone else would care enough to post so I didn't check first

and weaku never posts here!
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https://twitter.com/LessIsMoh/status/1294325413724827653?s=19

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xp1337 posted...

More "saying the quiet part out loud" honesty: https://twitter.com/JStein_WaPo/status/1293905571561734144

"So much of the Democratic asks are really liberal left wishlists we don't want to have -- voting rights, and aid to aliens, and so forth. That's not our game."

~~~

Oh, remember our newest almost-certain-to-go-to-the-House Q believer? Add "9/11 truther" to her resume: https://twitter.com/ehananoki/status/1293951126950285318

~~~

And LotM mentioned it but of course the birtherism president hops on the Kamala Harris birtherism lie.

She denies being QAnon saying she left that line of thinking when she found things that didn't add up. That she wanted to run for office after realizing that. Fwiw.

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Can't decide who is the bigger pieces of shit in our government.

So, exhibit A. We have the President.

Makes a dog and pony show executive orders which were only intended to be done to get sued in return to look good and make the Democrats look bad by suing. Or to be covered up by a new Congress deal which would not allow his dog and pony show to be exposed.

Exhibit B. We have the Democrats.

Democrats know that the President ran a dog and pony show. They know that the executive orders cannot help Americans substantially. However, because they want to make him look bad politically when it is finally exposed, they are willing to not sue him for his executive orders nor are they willing to make a deal for likely up to 6 weeks when the fund runs out to try and make Trump fall on his face. More willing to let Americans suffer to try and make Trump look bad than to help.

Then lastly Exhibit C. We have the Republicans.

Who are not so much evil as incompetent. Literally in an election year are trying to run themselves into the ground and lose all branches of government.

And that is our government. Total trash all around.


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https://twitter.com/waltshaub/status/1294332343197499394?s=21

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Yeah its a real shit show all around. What the hell can we even do when you know everyone in government is evil or incompetent and the next five people in line are also. We just have to put up with this?

Corrik7 posted...

Can't decide who is the bigger pieces of shit in our government.

So, exhibit A. We have the President.

Makes a dog and pony show executive orders which were only intended to be done to get sued in return to look good and make the Democrats look bad by suing. Or to be covered up by a new Congress deal which would not allow his dog and pony show to be exposed.

Exhibit B. We have the Democrats.

Democrats know that the President ran a dog and pony show. They know that the executive orders cannot help Americans substantially. However, because they want to make him look bad politically when it is finally exposed, they are willing to not sue him for his executive orders nor are they willing to make a deal for likely up to 6 weeks when the fund runs out to try and make Trump fall on his face. More willing to let Americans suffer to try and make Trump look bad than to help.

Then lastly Exhibit C. We have the Republicans.

Who are not so much evil as incompetent. Literally in an election year are trying to run themselves into the ground and lose all branches of government.

And that is our government. Total trash all around.

Corrik I don't really understand this conclusion. I mean yes democrats suck but Republicans are for sure evil

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Corrik I don't really understand this conclusion. I mean yes democrats suck but Republicans are for sure evil

My conclusion was our government is total trash all around.

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Yup. America is a proto-North Korea. Get used to it or leave, basically, because none of us have any power outside of violent revolution, which will never happen

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The working class has exactly one lever of power, which is collective striking. Unfortunately, the powers that be have done everything they can to turn working people against each other instead of their bosses, so it's a very difficult thing to utilize. In addition, many companies are evolving to utilize contract work or gig economy type situations where employers are far more easily replaced, as well as completely unable to socialize or interact with their coworkers in a way that would be conducive to organizing. It's a pretty bleak situation and nothing really seems to indicate anything will get better anytime soon. We are in an empire in decline, and until it collapses and something else takes its place we can probably just expect everything to get slightly worse than before for our whole lives. And yes, we will have to live through President Logan Paul at some point, and liberals crying about how they miss the respectable republicans like Donald Trump. This is just who America is.

America has always devalued labor and aggrandized ownership. It's been woven into the fabric of our history from the very beginning - land ownership, people ownership, and now business ownership. Any attempt to carve out a meaningful slice for the working class (let's say from WWII to the 1970s) was temporary and has had its course feverishly reversed since.

I've done my own quick research into this, and relative to the minimum wage of the time, the median cost of a home in the U.S. is currently double what it was in the 1960s. The relative cost of education has more than doubled. Sure, TVs, music, and movies may be cheaper, but any investment that may actually grow your wealth/power or improve your lot in life is significantly more expensive today.

And yeah, the gig economy will only hurt things, probably to the extent that I'd wager it's quite unsustainable in the long term. Hell, the growing gig economy may be the eventual powder keg for nationalized healthcare or UBI. People will fight back, eventually. They won't just volunteer to disappear.

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CaptainOfCrush posted...

America has always devalued labor and aggrandized ownership. It's been woven into the fabric of our history from the very beginning - land ownership, people ownership, and now business ownership. Any attempt to carve out a meaningful slice for the working class (let's say from WWII to the 1970s) was temporary and has had its course feverishly reversed since.

I've done my own quick research into this, and relative to the minimum wage of the time, the median cost of a home in the U.S. is currently double what it was in the 1960s. The relative cost of education has more than doubled. Sure, TVs, music, and movies may be cheaper, but any investment that may actually grow your wealth/power or improve your lot in life is significantly more expensive today.

And yeah, the gig economy will only hurt things, probably to the extent that I'd wager it's quite unsustainable in the long term. Hell, the growing gig economy may be the eventual powder keg for nationalized healthcare or UBI. People will fight back, eventually. They won't just volunteer to disappear.

Yes they will. They are called rural Republicans

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https://mobile.twitter.com/TexasTribune/status/1294351399275376641

More than anything thats happened on the last four years, the continued existence of concentration camps in the US is the thing I find the most disgusting. I cannot express how angry it makes me. If it ever sounds like I have no faith in the American population (cause I don't), keeo in kind that there's a huge number of people in the country that support this

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Unsurprised. These detained people are quickly dehumanized. Couple the dehumanization with their lack of rights and power, and and I'd be shocked if sexual abuse wasn't occurring.

US soldiers raped Iraqi women and girls; this is hardly different.

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Never too late to repeat: Abolish ICE.

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GAO: Chad Wolf and Ken Cuccinelli's appointments were unlawful:

https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1294268302739595264

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ICE and DHS are stains upon an already stained security apparatus.

Abolish them both.

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https://twitter.com/erinatthepost/status/1294339569505251330?s=21

If youre planning on voting by mail, make sure you do so at least a week in advance. Better yet use a ballot drop-off box if your state has them, or vote early in-person.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

https://twitter.com/erinatthepost/status/1294339569505251330?s=21

If youre planning on voting by mail, make sure you do so at least a week in advance. Better yet use a ballot drop-off box if your state has them, or vote early in-person.

I'm waiting to receive a letter right now that's supposed to take 3 days, 4 tops. It's been 10 days so far, and no letter.

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At this point it seems extremely foolish to vote by mail right now.

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