Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 315: Defund the Po...

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Jakyl25
08/13/20 12:02:37 PM
#1:


...st Office?
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DoomTheGyarados
08/13/20 12:07:50 PM
#2:


pyresword posted...
Well the point I was trying to make is that statistically it seems that most people who share both my political affiliation and my demographic have supported gay people for as long as they've been alive, so to see other people try to lump me in on the opposite side of what is probably the political issue I am most passionate about feels very insulting.

Or, possibly, we're talking about politicians with a lifetime of record to reflect on and how many of them made laws hurting that community. Don't presume just because you self-identify that is who we are talking about.

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Reg
08/13/20 12:09:07 PM
#3:


...liticians
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Peace___Frog
08/13/20 12:10:58 PM
#4:


I found this article on Kushner to be very interesting and learned a number of things about him that I hadn't known before.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/08/how-jared-kushner-became-trumps-most-dangerous-enabler/615169/

A particularly intriguing snippet:

In a White House where everything eventually leaks, there are no known accounts of Kushner disparaging the president. To create such distance would be inimical to him. At the very center of his identity, Kushner is a Good Son. Hes run the country in a spirit of filial devotion to an implacable father. Its a role that he thrives at playing, because hes spent his whole life rehearsing for it.

Theres one significant instance of Jared Kushner staking his own path, a moment when he set out to bend the White House and the Republican Party to his own desires. He devoted himself to the passage of the First Step Act, a bill reforming the federal criminal-justice system. He willed the bill into existence despite the reluctance of Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and the objections of other Senate Republicans, who said it was too lenient on violent criminals. It was a process that required him to assuage the anxieties of Trump, who, more than a year after the bills passage, still grumbles about having acceded to his son-in-laws passion project.

His father spent 14 months in jail for... tax evasion, witness tampering, and making illegal campaign donations.

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Reg
08/13/20 12:11:19 PM
#5:


(no but seriously get money the everloving fuck out of politics)
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HeroDelTiempo17
08/13/20 12:16:58 PM
#6:


This whole discussion is silly because moderates don't even really exist.

How Can Moderates Be Real If Our Eyes Aren't Real

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FFDragon
08/13/20 12:25:07 PM
#7:


HeroDelTiempo17 posted...
How Can Moderates Be Real If Our Eyes Aren't Real

You need to realize these real lies with real eyes.

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Inviso
08/13/20 12:30:51 PM
#8:


I want to add to my previous statement an agreement with HDT. If you are in a solidly blue area, no, you should not have to settle for a moderate. Getting more people like AOC into congress is important, if only to start a conversation about the benefits of progressivism and make it more mainstream, rather than some radical ideology. But on a national level, or even in areas that are more purple than red or blue, there needs to be some work on messaging if you want progressives to succeed.

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Inviso
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DoomTheGyarados
08/13/20 12:34:59 PM
#9:


My issue is not so much certain people feeling certain ways, but when democrats throw money behind republicans or moderates to try to unseat popular progressives it is a little gross when that money could be better spent elsewhere.

Also the media is a joke for this, as well.

I recognize that there are certain house races you can't have a progressive due to demos, that's just life.

Not sure which voter demographic loves that people take money from big business though...!

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Inviso
08/13/20 12:48:03 PM
#10:


Fair enough on the first point. I'm assuming this is a thing that happened recently with like, Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar?

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Inviso
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DoomTheGyarados
08/13/20 1:07:55 PM
#11:


Yeah Omar's opponent raised 4 million and everyone democrat Tlaib beat in 2018 backed her opponent lol

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paperwarior
08/13/20 1:11:43 PM
#12:


...or
You know, like, more so.

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HeroDelTiempo17
08/13/20 1:15:15 PM
#13:


Inviso posted...
I want to add to my previous statement an agreement with HDT. If you are in a solidly blue area, no, you should not have to settle for a moderate. Getting more people like AOC into congress is important, if only to start a conversation about the benefits of progressivism and make it more mainstream, rather than some radical ideology. But on a national level, or even in areas that are more purple than red or blue, there needs to be some work on messaging if you want progressives to succeed.

Sure! And the point I was trying to make is that in these solid blue areas, they would probably identify as "mainstream Democrat" but still manage to elect progressives into office. It's much harder on a national level but I think the potential is definitely there. It's just not being framed that way because the Democratic party is not a monolith and a lot of Democrat politicians are opposed to the progressive side of the party. I don't think this holds as true for the voters, but voters are easily convinced by them.

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TheRock1525
08/13/20 1:43:27 PM
#14:


https://twitter.com/cameron_easley/status/1293945350059962369?s=19

It would suggest reading this entire thread, but that last number really sticks with me:

51% favorability with the 65+ group.

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CaptainOfCrush
08/13/20 1:51:54 PM
#15:


TheRock1525 posted...
51% favorability with the 65+ group.

That number will dip as Trump really ramps up the nasty black woman whistles (I won't call them "dog" whistles anymore, they're just whistles at this point).


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xp1337
08/13/20 1:53:35 PM
#16:


Inviso posted...
Fair enough on the first point. I'm assuming this is a thing that happened recently with like, Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar?
To also be fair, it's not like ~the establishment~ was behind this.

Pelosi endorsed The Squad! But yeah there was a bunch of money being thrown at primary challengers to Tlaib and Omar (And AOC). A lot of it came from Rs as well. But if you combine their primaries together The Squad defeated their challengers 2-to-1 so lol.

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DoomTheGyarados
08/13/20 1:56:49 PM
#17:


Pelosi backs all incumbents which is its own problem <_<

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TheRock1525
08/13/20 1:57:27 PM
#18:


CaptainOfCrush posted...
That number will dip as Trump really ramps up the nasty black woman whistles (I won't call them "dog" whistles anymore, they're just whistles at this point).
Right but it's starting at an unusually high number. Like Biden is also high in that category but he also reminds them of old blue dog Democrats. Harris should be the scary bi-racial progressive that's gonna ruin America and so far it hasn't worked.

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xp1337
08/13/20 2:04:07 PM
#19:


DoomTheGyarados posted...
Pelosi backs all incumbents which is its own problem <_<
I don't really think it's a problem, per se. These are her co-workers, if she's going to work together with them and maybe have to whip them to make tough votes at some point it would be counter-productive for her to act against them.

Though I will say that if doesn't count for Pelosi for endorsing progressives because they're incumbents I don't think anyone should get on her case when she endorses conservative Democrats for the same reason. Doesn't mean you have to agree with her (and absolutely I think conservative Dems in deep blue districts should be primaried) though, obviously.

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DoomTheGyarados
08/13/20 2:07:33 PM
#20:


xp1337 posted...
I don't really think it's a problem, per se. These are her co-workers, if she's going to work together with them and maybe have to whip them to make tough votes at some point it would be counter-productive for her to act against them.

Though I will say that if doesn't count for Pelosi for endorsing progressives because they're incumbents I don't think anyone should get on her case when she endorses conservative Democrats for the same reason. Doesn't mean you have to agree with her (and absolutely I think conservative Dems in deep blue districts should be primaried) though, obviously.

It's a simple numbers game of which side of the party this policy benefits more, though. Also her positions on progressive policies and her attitude towards AOC these past two years says a lot as well, to put further context.

I don't expect anything different from her I just know it is not good in my view.

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HeroDelTiempo17
08/13/20 2:27:56 PM
#21:


DoomTheGyarados posted...


It's a simple numbers game of which side of the party this policy benefits more, though. Also her positions on progressive policies and her attitude towards AOC these past two years says a lot as well, to put further context.

I don't expect anything different from her I just know it is not good in my view.

So is the ideal for the party as a whole to stay out of primaries and endorse whoever wins for the general or for them to be more selective with endorsements?

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DoomTheGyarados
08/13/20 2:30:08 PM
#22:


I think staying out of primaries and letting the voters decide is the best use of money that they gather from donors. If voters don't vote for the progressive, hey at the end of the day that's democracy but I don't like the party putting their thumb on the scale which they sometimes do.

Let the primaries be, and then endorse and fund for general.

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Sir Chris
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xp1337
08/13/20 2:48:27 PM
#23:


https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1293958681936244736

As if defunding USPS wasn't enough, they're getting rid of their mail sorting machines with literally no explanation or reason given. Aside from just the inconvenience this would cause generally, these are often the same machines that would sort ballots.

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Peace___Frog
08/13/20 2:56:23 PM
#24:


Gotta reduce faith in the institutions by November!

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DoomTheGyarados
08/13/20 2:58:22 PM
#25:


I am glad I finally get to be the small business owner telling the republicans to go fuck themselves <_<

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DeepsPraw
08/13/20 3:46:15 PM
#26:


Has the right-wing crowd here tried to defend Trump's statements about the USPS funding?

Of all the things Trump has done, this one pisses me off the most. I don't see how anybody can claim to support democracy but be okay with this.

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ChaosTonyV4
08/13/20 4:05:16 PM
#27:


On the topic of progressives are viewed as more nasty by my moderate parents.

Its pretty simple.

In the same way sensitive white people feel attacked by BLM, your typical Dem today has convinced themselves that theyve always been on the right side of the fight, and thus, any anger they show is righteous, while these young progressives anger is misplaced and nasty.

A certain crowd of Dems is not used to be attacked from the Left because before social media they could just ignore them, and instead of listening, so many fall into the trap that many attacking them are ACTUALLY on the Right, and the rest are irrelevant because theyre rude.

It doesnt solve the problem, and I suspect the next 4 years will be a roller coaster.

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Inviso
08/13/20 4:19:08 PM
#28:


What doesn't solve the problem?

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Inviso
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Corrik7
08/13/20 5:08:04 PM
#29:


So is this true...

https://www.businessinsider.com/trumps-federal-unemployment-boost-leave-out-low-wage-workers-2020-8

400 a week has been reduced to 300 a week cuz states don't have money and people under $100 a week from state get nothing?

Yay play politics more.

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Corrik7
08/13/20 5:13:10 PM
#30:


https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/republicans-and-democrats-equally-blamed-for-expiration-of-unemployment-benefit-boost-poll

Yeah, yinz all look good.

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Jakyl25
08/13/20 5:40:15 PM
#31:


Corrik7 posted...
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/republicans-and-democrats-equally-blamed-for-expiration-of-unemployment-benefit-boost-poll

Yeah, yinz all look good.


A third of respondents thought that $400 was not enough, while 23% believed it was too much. Roughly a third (31%) thought it was the right amount.


Jeez how is anything supposed to get agreed on when this is the constituency
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Jakyl25
08/13/20 5:45:54 PM
#32:


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FFDragon
08/13/20 5:50:05 PM
#33:


can we get rid of all of them

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Jakyl25
08/13/20 5:56:21 PM
#34:


I mean, with the House, technically yes?
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banananor
08/13/20 6:09:54 PM
#35:


Kenri posted...
This whole discussion is silly because moderates don't even really exist.
I just realized that when people talk about "moderates" they are really talking about people who don't pay that much attention to the news and have knee-jerk reactions

Is that where the communist/disco elysium term 'reactionary' comes from?

We in this topic are all already unusual in that we pay closer attention to politics than the average american

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DoomTheGyarados
08/13/20 6:11:02 PM
#36:


Usually when I am talking about moderates I think about the neo-liberal wing of the democratic party, although the term shifts a bit over the years with changing climate.

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UshiromiyaEva
08/13/20 6:18:48 PM
#37:


To me Moderates are just Coservative Dems who are too afraid to be associated with the word.

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HeroicCrono
08/13/20 6:19:47 PM
#38:


There's a lot of neoliberal moderates in both the Democratic and Republican parties. They're used to winning all the elections, so they perceive people like Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders and AOC as existential threats.
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LordoftheMorons
08/13/20 6:25:29 PM
#39:


https://twitter.com/Timodc/status/1294034797946273792

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ChaosTonyV4
08/13/20 6:27:51 PM
#40:


Inviso posted...
What doesn't solve the problem?

Delegating Progressives as "actually Russian" or "particularly nasty trolls" and basically ignoring their desires.

I think two out of three of 2020, 2022, and 2024 are going to be rouuuuuugh.

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red13n
08/13/20 6:29:45 PM
#41:


there is a pretty strong Russian contingent trying to fake being "progressive".

Just a fact, tbh.

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Mr Lasastryke
08/13/20 6:31:27 PM
#42:


LordoftheMorons posted...
https://twitter.com/Timodc/status/1294034797946273792

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/203568571148800001

yeah who could have seen that one coming

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ChaosTonyV4
08/13/20 6:32:50 PM
#43:


red13n posted...
there is a pretty strong Russian contingent trying to fake being "progressive".

Just a fact, tbh.

A fact to what end? This is exactly what I'm talking about. Who is Russian and what do we do about the ones who aren't?

Like we know Russian bots take every position to spread FUD, (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt), so how does the conversation benefit by calling progressives you disagree with Russian trolls?

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red sox 777
08/13/20 6:33:18 PM
#44:


red13n posted...
there is a pretty strong Russian contingent trying to fake being "progressive".

Just a fact, tbh.

The homeland of the Communist Party, faking being progressive? I think they have a much better claim to that word than American Democrats.

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red13n
08/13/20 6:36:24 PM
#45:


ChaosTonyV4 posted...
A fact to what end?

what do you mean a fact to what end?

Its a fact. I'm not sure where you want me to go beyond that.

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DoomTheGyarados
08/13/20 6:36:54 PM
#46:


red13n posted...
what do you mean a fact to what end?

Its a fact. I'm not sure where you want me to go beyond that.

Yeah but they fake being conservative and moderate too, red. That's his point.

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Suprak the Stud
08/13/20 6:37:41 PM
#47:


DoomTheGyarados posted...
Usually when I am talking about moderates I think about the neo-liberal wing of the democratic party, although the term shifts a bit over the years with changing climate.

Neolibs are weird in that I wouldn't say they are exactly moderates. They are more moderate than economic issues, but there are plenty of issues where they are very far to the left and even further to the left than even Bernie in some cases (immigration comes to mind immediately). I wouldn't quite know how to cleanly place them on the spectrum cleanly.

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DoomTheGyarados
08/13/20 6:39:58 PM
#48:


Suprak the Stud posted...
Neolibs are weird in that I wouldn't say they are exactly moderates. They are more moderate than economic issues, but there are plenty of issues where they are very far to the left and even further to the left than even Bernie in some cases (immigration comes to mind immediately). I wouldn't quite know how to cleanly place them on the spectrum cleanly.

I feel like this is assuming every issue is a vacuum, but really Bernie's issues with immigration come from the problems it creates for workers which democrats don't really address very well! It's complicated.

I admit I am mostly concerned with the economic side right now as the country is turning horrible due to the economic problems more than any other.

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Suprak the Stud
08/13/20 6:47:48 PM
#49:


Oh I don't disagree at all (and this is mostly yet another pointless semantic argument because aw yeah why not).

But I don't think neolibs are really "moderate". They tend to be very far to the left on almost every social issue I can think of. I'm not even saying Sanders doesn't have his reasons or that this is an easy issue, but based purely on policy a random neolib is going to be to the left of Sanders on immigration.

But yes, they do tend to be moderate on some big issues, so I can at least understand the desire to put them in that camp. I just think it is slightly more complicated than that.

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NFUN
08/13/20 6:51:17 PM
#50:


i still don't understand the popular usage of "neoliberal" because as far as I understand it, the "liberalism" it calls back to is classical liberalism which is basically what libertarianism evolved from

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