Board 8 > POLL: Should transgenders be allowed to participate in women's sports?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Up.
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down
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Halfway up.

Now it's neither up nor down.

(If we're gonna go all Grand Old Duke of York About this)
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down x2
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Any other votes?
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Up.
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Dude you're not gonna get the result you want by bumping over and over. Just accept that this poll was a bust and move on.
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no u

I'm just going for 100+ votes. :)
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82 votes is already enough for a statistically significant sample of society. The people have spoken and you can't change that.
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It appears that looking at the result time and again is all too painful for you.
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Oh I love the result lol. What's painful is watching a grown man who can't accept the truth of a gfaqs poll.
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foolm0r0n posted...

Oh I love the result

Oh cool. Then you won't mind looking at it for a few more days. :)
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lmao @ you letting this go after just a few more days. You're gonna be bumping this for a long, long, sad time.
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Of course not, trans men should compete in men's sports.

No
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Quick comment to the results: good to see the vast majority of the board support keeping sports fair.
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I think it's unfair that LeBron James is allowed to play basketball, thus giving me no shot at competing at an NBA level.
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Also, you put "transgenders" (which isn't a word). Try redoing the poll with "transgender women" and see how it works out.
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Looks like 107 people had no trouble understanding it. But feel free to make your own poll.
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idc

Vlado posted...

Looks like 107 people had no trouble understanding it. But feel free to make your own poll.

fun fcat pelope can "useadntnrd" eevn if you colplemtey sarlmbce the mdidle ltertes of evrey wrod but taht deos not mkae the serlbabcd lteters itno rael wdros eiethr
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GuessMyUserName posted...

Vlado posted...

Looks like 107 people had no trouble understanding it. But feel free to make your own poll.

fun fcat pelope can "useadntnrd" eevn if you colplemtey sarlmbce the mdidle ltertes of evrey wrod but taht deos not mkae the serlbabcd lteters itno rael wdros eiethr

I had trouble with scramble(d) both times there.
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it's the double impact of scrambled on scrambled
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Sure, in a no-holds-barred-all-steroids-are-legal league
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The answer is no and this should be explained to those who have this issue and wish to do a gender change. It is their body, and they can do as they please. However society will not change for them and there is consequences. Not being able to participate in sports based on sex is one of them.

I feel suicide is so high in the transgender community because they aren't properly explained everything that can come with that decision.
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Corrik7 posted...

I feel suicide is so high in the transgender community because they aren't properly explained everything that can come with that decision.

yeah I'm sure suicide occurs because the dumb trans people just don't understand the totality and severity of society's biases against them and not because of those pressures actually acting on people
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Corrik7 posted...

I feel

*I think
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corrik it really isn't hard to shut your mouth on shit you don't have the slightest bit of understanding on, transitioning isn't something that people just start up under their first inkling of curiosity - not only regarding their own personal road to accepting themselves, but also after that the process it takes to receiving treatment (and even grander, having to come out to everyone in your life)

"they aren't properly explained everything that can come with that decision" is the dumbest fucking claim engulfed in total cluelessness
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

yeah I'm sure suicide occurs because the dumb trans people just don't understand the totality and severity of society's biases against them and not because of those pressures actually acting on people

I mean, being realistic about it, it's probably a bit of both. We're at a dangerous point where the perception of trans people seems more 'accepting' on the surface level due to some loud voices supporting the movement, but society as a whole isn't quite there yet, so I imagine it can be a shock to some who go through with it, even if they're not taking the decision lightly. It's a big decision that is probably being a bit sugar coated right now relative to how accepting society actually is. Might be a necessary evil (said evil being increased suicide rates) because you need those loud voices for progress, but I'm not sure Corrik is totally off base there.

I'm not saying trans people are taking their decision lightly per se, but there is a difference between a perceived understanding of something, and actually living something. That's true of anything, though, and I'm not really sure how it's terribly relevant to this discussion anyway.
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Has nothing to do with their intelligence.

Has to do with usually unrealistically high expectations.

I mean, I can relate, when I was a teen and in my 20s, I thought I was bulletproof and the world revolves around me. It is a common thought process in young adults.

Like, why do you think so many people are saddled with college debt right now? Is it because they are morons?

Unrealistic expectations.

We are not properly informing people of actual expectations at that age. I would expect suicide for the transgender community probably falls mostly into the under 30 crowd, as well.
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I'm guessing Corriks actual argument here isnt meant to be as daft as it's coming across, I think what he's saying is that for example

Someone is very obese. Sure we slightly accommodate them but you're still buying 2 airplane seats cause being fat was a choice

Now obviously gender dysmorphia is not a choice but it's also not something where you need medical attention or have a shorter life span if left alone.

We have trans people who just expect the world to change for them - and it has quite a bit.

We have arguments and news stories and government policy change about who can use what bathroom, if after all these years we now have to allow trans kids to compete in children's sports with cis kids when really none of it is necessary.

No one says anything about teams should let the fat kids play cause they just couldn't compete. Now we have people saying kids can compete in whatever gendered sport they want and we just have to accept it? Because... its somehow hatred to not?

It's nothing like gay marriage where that is absolutely necessary because we all deserve the exact same rights. The thing that rubs some people the wrong way and maybe this is corriks issue, is that what trans people often demand is above what everyone else is entitled to. You made a choice to transition which is absolutely fine, but now you shouldn't be upset if everyone doesnt go above and beyond the way they would treat anyone and everyone - the same.
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I can tell you: Corrik is totally off-base.

The idea that transitioning is so widely accepted that people are excited to jump in without any (long, loooong) introspection or research, or without hyperfocusing on trans persecution among the media and within their in-crowd and thinking about how it will affect them is crazy talk. Sugar coated by relatives are you kidding me? Even among massively liberal families that isn't at all the case, your family has known you for who you've been in life to that point, people are often "accepting" to those outside of their home but when it comes to your own son/daughter/brother/sister will be all the more skeptical and resistant to change, and some of it to be fair will be exactly for reasons of concern about how "sure" they are because of the outlook of making a "mistake". Even if they're outwardly trying to be supportive, it's much more complex than [comes out to family] -> [family cheers and congratulates their courage], and that is only the beginning with a large window for reversal.
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You're dumbing down the point and focusing on sugar coating because it's an easier thing to attack. I'm not saying (and in fact, specifically said I wasn't saying that, but words are only useful if they're read) it's being treated lightly. I'm more saying that every hard decision in life is "sugar coated" to a degree and no amount of research/introspection is going to fully prepare you for a life changing decision like that.

You probably got a more accurate idea of what you were in for when it was treated as total taboo, as far as the hardships you were going to have to go through. Granted you'd also have to go through more of said hardships, but yeah. I think right now the gulf between perception and reality is the highest it's ever been, which is dangerous.
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No one says anything about teams should let the fat kids play cause they just couldn't compete. N

what where are fat kids not allowed to play sports

obviously if theres try outs they may not make it, but no is forbidding them from attempting to compete. Seems like a totally different situation
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Lopen posted...

I mean, being realistic about it, it's probably a bit of both. We're at a dangerous point where the perception of trans people seems more 'accepting' on the surface level due to some loud voices supporting the movement, but society as a whole isn't quite there yet, so I imagine it can be a shock to some who go through with it, even if they're not taking the decision lightly. It's a big decision that is probably being a bit sugar coated right now relative to how accepting society actually is. Might be a necessary evil (said evil being increased suicide rates) because you need those loud voices for progress, but I'm not sure Corrik is totally off base there.

This is some top tier enlightened centrism bullshit.

Part of the acceptance movement that is being portrayed as "dangerous" and "misleading" is increasing awareness of trans issues and supporting those who have gone through them. Yes, this also includes reinforcement for being trans. I don't really see it as going around saying that being trans is so easy and you shouldn't have a care about it, as you and Corrik seem to.

You seem to mainly be criticizing liberal "safe spaces" and saying that they present an unhelpfully positive view of things. But that's not the intent. The term "safe space" implies other areas are unsafe and it these support areas aren't "sugarcoating" that reality at all.

Finally it's just ludicrous to me that if a person has knowledge that they can expect to be harrassed, targeted by hate crimes, and oppressed that they'll suddenly be less upset about it. It's just ridiculous blame shifting.
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MoogleKupo141 posted...

No one says anything about teams should let the fat kids play cause they just couldn't compete. N

what where are fat kids not allowed to play sports

obviously if theres try outs they may not make it, but no is forbidding them from attempting to compete. Seems like a totally different situation

If biological gender no longer applies, why should age apply either then? Why not let the 25 year olds compete against the 13 year olds?

Theres a valid reason
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Yao posted...

If biological gender no longer applies, why should age apply either then? Why not let the 25 year olds compete against the 13 year olds?

If you're a 25 year old middle schooler you have bigger problems than sports.
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Oh and of course the main point that I completely forgot is that the idea that trans people dont understand the issues they themselves experience is a galaxy brain take
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It doesn't matter what silly disclaimers you tack on, you're minimizing what is still an incredibly grand action to suggest people are going into it willy-nilly. It is not their fault for going into it too easily because it's still not fucking easy for anyone at all to do so. In the battle between "perception vs reality" the fault is not with perception, but with the "reality" still being far crueler than it should be. Your theory of people's perception/expectation being too positive is insane.
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Yao posted...

It's nothing like gay marriage where that is absolutely necessary because we all deserve the exact same rights. The thing that rubs some people the wrong way and maybe this is corriks issue, is that what trans people often demand is above what everyone else is entitled to. You made a choice to transition which is absolutely fine, but now you shouldn't be upset if everyone doesnt go above and beyond the way they would treat anyone and everyone - the same.

Sorta. Transgender people should be accommodated as much as possible. Why shouldn't we? But, it cannot be done to the extent that it becomes a detriment to others. That has to be understood.
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Yao posted...

MoogleKupo141 posted...

No one says anything about teams should let the fat kids play cause they just couldn't compete. N

what where are fat kids not allowed to play sports

obviously if theres try outs they may not make it, but no is forbidding them from attempting to compete. Seems like a totally different situation

If biological gender no longer applies, why should age apply either then? Why not let the 25 year olds compete against the 13 year olds?

Theres a valid reason

because no one is trans-age

if you find me someone physically 25 who believes them self to be 13, lives their life as a 13 year-old, and is getting surgery to make their body smaller and their facial hair worse we can have this conversation
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

You seem to mainly be criticizing liberal "safe spaces" and saying that they present an unhelpfully positive view of things. But that's not the intent. The term "safe space" implies other areas are unsafe and it these support areas aren't "sugarcoating" that reality at all.

I'm not criticizing them as much as saying I don't believe they present a realistic view of the world and currently are the most dangerous they've been. You are illustrating the danger in this very well in that you are not presenting a realistic view of what I'm saying. Anyone who disagrees with you on anything, even if they agree with you in general, is some sort of bigot and the majority of the world can't possibly be bigots, therefore the disagreeing voice must be wrong because their viewpoint is driven by non-acceptance, and of course they're also in the minority. Even people who are liberal like me are often considered 'the enemy' because they're just not liberal enough.

Again it's probably a necessary evil for progress, but it's kind of a Catch-22 sorta thing at the moment. You need the loud voices of acceptance, but tempering expectations is important too. I think currently society is leaning a bit too hard into the former. It beats leaning too hard into the latter, I suppose.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

the idea that trans people dont understand the issues they themselves experience is a galaxy brain take

I am saying they don't. But here's the thing: Trans people are not special in this regard, just more extreme than most. There are life changing decisions everyone faces, and no one ever fully understands them until they do them. Something as simple as moving to a new place where you don't know anyone can do a number on someone relative to the price they thought they were willing to pay, and can even drive people to suicidal thoughts.
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Yao posted...

Now obviously gender dysmorphia is not a choice but it's also not something where you need medical attention or have a shorter life span if left alone.

Plenty of trans people say that's exactly what it is.
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Lopen posted...

Anyone who disagrees with you on anything, even if they agree with you in general, is some sort of bigot and the majority of the world can't possibly be bigots, therefore the disagreeing voice must be wrong because their viewpoint is driven by non-acceptance, and of course they're also in the minority. Even people who are liberal like me are often considered 'the enemy' because they're just not liberal enough.

I never said you are a bigot, I just think you are uninformed on this issue and are trying to take a nonsensical moderate position. This is ironic, because you are explicitly arguing that people be more informed on trans issues, and that trans people aren't informed enough. You pointed to liberal movements providing unrealistic expectations, and I explained that these support groups do engage in the education you apparently want them to do. This would be obvious if you were informed on the matter.

Lopen posted...

I am saying they don't. But here's the thing: Trans people are not special in this regard, just more extreme than most. There are life changing decisions everyone faces, and no one ever fully understands them until they do them. Something as simple as moving to a new place where you don't know anyone can do a number on someone relative to the price they thought they were willing to pay, and can even drive people to suicidal thoughts.

Here you acknowledge that trans people face "extreme" struggles that "no one ever fully understands until they do them." You argue that being more prepared would reduce suicide risk. I am arguing that not only is this already happening, but the trauma itself is the biggest contributing factor and not the lack of "preparedness" that you yourself have admitted can only go so far.
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tbh I think the suicide risk is going to be higher either way

if you transition, sure, there's a whole lot of things to deal with and I'm not minimizing those

but if you don't transition, and you keep on hating your body, hating yourself every time you look in a mirror or someone says your name, etc. that's gotta be rough too. it's not the big hump of "coming out" but it grinds you down over time.
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Gatarix posted...

tbh I think the suicide risk is going to be higher either way

if you transition, sure, there's a whole lot of things to deal with and I'm not minimizing those

but if you don't transition, and you keep on hating your body, hating yourself every time you look in a mirror or someone says your name, etc. that's gotta be rough too. it's not the big hump of "coming out" but it grinds you down over time.

Bingo.
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The thing that is 'sugar coated' is the interpretation of society as it stands currently. The simple fact is acceptance currently looks at a much higher level than actually it is due to easily accessed support avenues, and a combative mindset among people in these support circles that leads to a lot of holier than thou browbeating, sending people who would normally speak against it, or at least not for it, into a defensive posture. In the long run making these people not speak up will help, I imagine, but in the short term these people aren't actually convinced, so it's just an illusion of acceptance.

It's not really something that you can correct with merely getting THE FACTS without changing the environment you're doing the research in. There's just a lot more to it than crap like harassment and hate crimes like you're saying that informing yourself just can't drive home. What about the people who pretend to accept you, but subtly something just seems off? Hell, what about the people who aren't pretending to accept you, but you can't shake the feeling that they are? And the reaction to this stuff is all going to change from person to person.

It's tough because like, you kinda need support circles and stuff, but yeah-- I just think there's a bit too much fervor and zeal behind the movement right now to the point where it's skewing perceptions of what society currently is. Reserved acceptance of who you are should be the ultimate goal, not actively taking pride in it as part of your identity. Actively taking pride in it facilitates echo chambers, which isn't the real world.
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a bit awkward wording but yeah completely true drak, staying closeted has always been a torturous and internally conflicting affair and transitioning is a major relief to those anxieties as pretty much all testimony will tell you - and the "coming out" hump is exactly that, a hump that's tough to clear but gets much better after you're over it

it just unfortunately brings a lot of new external anxieties from discrimination, persecution, and societal pressures that you could previously keep hidden... but while you were hiding it you're mentally harming yourself quietly
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Of course there is harm to mental well being in being closeted. You're basically picking your poison.

Saying it's exactly the same but just more condensed is probably dumbing it down, though. For some people those external anxieties could easily outweigh the internal torment. For others, the opposite is true. It all depends on personality. How much you care about what other people think about you vs your self worth probably being the two biggest personality traits at work. The latter is probably inherently low for people considering transitioning for obvious reasons, but I imagine the former is going to run a pretty large gamut.
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I like when I respond everyone is up in arms, yet the poll was nearly 78% no. On a forum where I would expect the results to skew closer to yes than actual America would.
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