Board 8 > POLL: Should transgenders be allowed to participate in women's sports?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Lopen posted...

P sure Corrik was arguing there is a good reason to make that change before you charged at the red bigotry cape.

But there isnt
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Jakyl25 posted...

Lopen posted...

So is Jakyl saying he'd agree with Corrik if divisions were male and female

If there was a good reason to make them male/female instead of men/women, anti-trans people would have already made that change

Sex and Gender are not universally considered different and weren't considered distinct until the 1970s. And, it is widely used interchangeably.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction

I mean, when do you think these rules and divisions were made, and how many knew the distinction in widely interchangeably used terms.

I mean, it is just Men's and women's because it sounds better than male and female. No other reason.

Seriously?
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You say there isn't but haven't made good points against Corrik's post beyond shrieking bigot
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Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik7 posted...

Lopen posted...

So is Jakyl saying he'd agree with Corrik if divisions were male and female

I don't know. They literally are jumping through hurdles. They have to know women's sports is intended for "females" and they weren't trying to dictate it was assigned by "gender" and not "sex" with the wording.

Your own definition of womens sports earlier was basically that it was a pity division for women who cant compete with men right?

My definition for women's sports is that it is to separate the men and women's sports because the average man is biologically predisposed to be stronger, faster, and bigger than women. Which gives them competitive edge on average.

It would be legitimately freaking dangerous to have a man heavyweight fighting a woman heavyweight in boxing.

The entire discussion has been based on the biologies involved. Obviously this is about their sex. Their biological identity.
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Lopen posted...

You say there isn't but haven't made good points against Corrik's post beyond shrieking bigot

Because I cant get even past him calling trans women not actual women to even get to an honest discussion. Because I dont think hes being honest or talking to me in good faith. I believe that he is intentionally winding me up because hes not that ignorant.

Would YOU like to know those points
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Corrik7 posted...

Lopen posted...

So is Jakyl saying he'd agree with Corrik if divisions were male and female

I don't know. They literally are jumping through hurdles. They have to know women's sports is intended for "females" and they weren't trying to dictate it was assigned by "gender" and not "sex" with the wording.

I dont care about the original intent of the division, thats not what this argument is about. Its about what the division should be now.

if youre just arguing about whether or not the people in charge in the 70s (just choosing title IX as a point in time, I dont know when the origin of womens sports as a concept is) would want transwomen in womens sports then yeah, I imagine almost all of them wouldnt. trans acceptance has come a long way since then.
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Its legitimately freaking dangerous to have anyone box anyone. I dont even think there are women heavyweight boxers, but I could be wrong.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Lopen posted...

You say there isn't but haven't made good points against Corrik's post beyond shrieking bigot

Because I cant get even past him calling trans women not actual women to even get to an honest discussion. Because I dont think hes being honest or talking to me in good faith. I believe that he is intentionally winding me up because hes not that ignorant.

Would YOU like to know those points

Maybe you get worked up over dumb things then. Everyone's argument who voted no is the same as mine. The normal person doesn't use women and men to be only indicative as gender alone. They are 99% of the time referring to their sex.

The fact you can't see that is kind of offputting to be frank.

There is no way you sat here and said Everytime Corrik says Women he is referring to gender here.
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Corrik posted...

My definition for women's sports is that it is to separate the men and women's sports because the average man is biologically predisposed to be stronger, faster, and bigger than women. Which gives them competitive edge on average.

So why even give the inferior sex any division at all?
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MoogleKupo141 posted...

Corrik7 posted...

Lopen posted...

So is Jakyl saying he'd agree with Corrik if divisions were male and female

I don't know. They literally are jumping through hurdles. They have to know women's sports is intended for "females" and they weren't trying to dictate it was assigned by "gender" and not "sex" with the wording.

I dont care about the original intent of the division, thats not what this argument is about. Its about what the division should be now.

if youre just arguing about whether or not the people in charge in the 70s (just choosing title IX as a point in time, I dont know when the origin of womens sports as a concept is) would want transwomen in womens sports then yeah, I imagine almost all of them wouldnt. trans acceptance has come a long way since then.

The divisions should be as intended. By sex.
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So you're okay with a transgender man dominating the women's division in wrestling.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik posted...

My definition for women's sports is that it is to separate the men and women's sports because the average man is biologically predisposed to be stronger, faster, and bigger than women. Which gives them competitive edge on average.

So why even give the inferior sex any division at all?

They aren't an inferior sex. Women are very equal to men as a sex They have inferior biological structure in regards to a competitive nature that involves strength, speed, and size.

The reason the women's divisions began is because it was so women wouldn't get hurt against men and so they could compete and actually play.

If there was no women's basketball, women would almost never get to play. The point is to allow them to play.
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Corrik posted...

There is no way you sat here and said Everytime Corrik says Women he is referring to gender here.

If you were being honest about you respecting how trans people want the language of sex and gender to be used, you would be using that way.

But youre clearly not honest about that, because when I told you what the distinction is, you didnt care to correct your language
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TheRock1525 posted...

So you're okay with a transgender man dominating the women's division in wrestling.

They would be banned for illegal substances. It is why I said it doesn't work either way unfortunately.
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I would like to read relevant counterpoints please
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Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik posted...

There is no way you sat here and said Everytime Corrik says Women he is referring to gender here.

If you were being honest about you respecting how trans people want the language of sex and gender to be used, you would be using that way.

But youre clearly not honest about that, because when I told you what the distinction is, you didnt care to correct your language

I am not "correcting" my language from what the widely accepted usage is for the vast majority of the populace.

I will refer to anyone as they wish to be referred. That is common decency. I will treat people as they wish to be treated. That is common decency.

That can be easily seen on this very forum itself already if you kept your eyes open.
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Common decency is treating people how they want to be treated but when they aren't around you say they aren't real women, apparently.
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Common decency is treating people how they want to be treated but when they aren't around you say they aren't real women, apparently.

You can frame it however you want to act morally superior. The fact is, I treat people with decency.

If a person said, hey no shit do you legally or biologically think I am a woman? I would say no. But, I will treat you as a woman socially as long as it is not a detriment to others, which is what the entire purpose of their transgender situation is.
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Lopen posted...

I would like to read relevant counterpoints please

Okay, at its core, what is the purpose of sports? Entertainment for the masses. Personal accomplishment. Team building and cameraderie.

The reason different leagues/divisions exist is because of representation. Pure and simple. Even Corrik just admitted that the only reason Womens sports exist is so theyd get to play, despite being on average biologically inferior in speed, strength, and size.

Trans women are women. Trans men are men. Let them be represented in the leagues they belong in. No one is harmed by it, but trans people are absolutely harmed by being forced to compete in the wrong league for their gender or by being excluded at all.
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I will treat people as they wish to be treated

if a person said hey do you legally think I am a woman, I would say no

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Jakyl25 posted...

I will treat people as they wish to be treated

if a person said hey do you legally think I am a woman, I would say no

If the law says you are not, are you saying I should lie to you? Lol? What?
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Trans women are legally women dude
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This is a topic with no easy answer. Natural born women may feel like they are being screwed over if MtF transgender athletes are dominant and MtF transgender athletes may feel like they are being screwed over if they are not allowed to compete in the leagues that coincide with the gender they believe they are. It is a topic that is never going to be solved in a way that makes everything fair or keeps everyone happy. I can honestly say, I dont have the answers and I doubt anyone out there does at the moment.
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Corrik7 posted...

The reason the women's divisions began is because it was so women wouldn't get hurt against men and so they could compete and actually play.

(This is to Jakyl) If it's actually just about representing men and women that's fine. What is your counterpoint to that, though?

One could argue that preserving a competitive environment is also paramount. Do you think that trans women being the new meta for women's division dominance is okay? What about the biological females that also want to compete?
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Problem is that people don't just seem to be satisfied with being socially accepted and treated decently. They are crusading for going too far. And, I think it honestly hurts the transgender rights movement a lot.

I know a transgender person on resetera got banned for saying the above and saying it was annoying that it wasn't even actual transgender people who were doing the crusading, which made it frustrating due to actually being the person they are supposedly crusading for.

Are you helping transgender people by trying to take up their cause without even being one and fighting for extreme lengths? Transgender people want to be accepted. I wonder how many people who fight in their name are actually fighting for transgender acceptance or are trying to one-up fight for their own moral smugness.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Trans women are legally women dude

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_rights_in_the_United_States

Consult the map under Identity Documents for further reference about this, if anyones interested
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Jakyl25 posted...

Trans women are legally women dude

If that is true, then I would say so. I think we are again referring to gender here and not sex though. But, if you are right, then so be it!
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Lopen posted...

Corrik7 posted...

The reason the women's divisions began is because it was so women wouldn't get hurt against men and so they could compete and actually play.

(This is to Jakyl) If it's actually just about representing men and women that's fine. What is your counterpoint to that, though?

One could argue that preserving a competitive environment is also paramount. Do you think that trans women being the new meta for women's division dominance is okay? What about the biological females that also want to compete?

I feel thats a moot point, since it happens so rarely that a trans athlete dominates amongst the thousands of them participating in sports that you cannot logically say that its due to their biology

In some hypothetical universe where trans women dominated biological females, there would probably be enough trans women to start a different league
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Jakyl25 posted...

Lopen posted...

Corrik7 posted...

The reason the women's divisions began is because it was so women wouldn't get hurt against men and so they could compete and actually play.

(This is to Jakyl) If it's actually just about representing men and women that's fine. What is your counterpoint to that, though?

One could argue that preserving a competitive environment is also paramount. Do you think that trans women being the new meta for women's division dominance is okay? What about the biological females that also want to compete?

I feel thats a moot point, since it happens so rarely that a trans athlete dominates amongst the thousands of them participating in sports that you cannot logically say that its due to their biology

In some hypothetical universe where trans women dominated biological females, there would probably be enough trans women to start a different league

How many transgender athletes are failing to dominate in women's sports?

Because you talk like you know this happens rarely. I want numbers.
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It is funny you made this huge argument about gender/sex divisions, yet I don't think I see you crusading that states shouldn't be allowing transgender people to change their birth certificates' sex because they are changing their gender not sex.

Why aren't you arguing this?
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That is interesting though. It seems they are legally considered women. Thus, I will amend my statements to you are legally considered a woman if ever asked! (Unless otherwise proven).
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Corrik7 posted...

It is funny you made this huge argument about gender/sex divisions, yet I don't think I see you crusading that states shouldn't be allowing transgender people to change their birth certificates' sex because they are changing their gender not sex.

Why aren't you arguing this?

Because sex on a birth certificate is used to signify both sex and gender because birth certificates were created back in the old days when people used sex and gender indiscriminately, as you have referenced earlier.

It IS a problem that you have to legally change your gender by altering the sex on your birth certificate. Its just not high up on the priority list
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(And also because newborns dont have gender identity yet)
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Corrik7 posted...

I know a transgender person on resetera got banned for saying the above and saying it was annoying that it wasn't even actual transgender people who were doing the crusading, which made it frustrating due to actually being the person they are supposedly crusading for.

youve cited articles with trans people playing in their genders division so obviously there are actual trans people who care about this. If random resetera trans person doesnt care thats fine but then theyre not effected by the argument either way.

Problem is that people don't just seem to be satisfied with being socially accepted and treated decently. They are crusading for going too far. And, I think it honestly hurts the transgender rights movement a lot.

this sounds like some why arent black people satisfied with sitting at the back of the bus, at least were decent enough to let them on the bus at all stuff. who are you to say what amount of rights they should be satisfied with?

and its not like theyve even really reached the socially accepted and treated decently level everywhere in this country. Theres still a substantial percentage of people who dont want them using the right bathroom.
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Jakyl25 posted...

(And also because newborns dont have gender identity yet)

So why should gender be on any birth certificate and not just the sex?

So, again, why are we changing sex on birth certificates after the fact?
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oh also I found this while looking up bathroom stuff on Wikipedia

May 2016, the United States Department of Justice and the United States Department of Education released a joint guidance on the application of Title IX protections to transgender students.[15] The guidance stated that for the purpose of Title IX, the Department of Justice and the Department of Education treat a student's gender identity as their sex. The guidance was followed by a formal "Dear Colleague" letter on May 13.[1

so, i think based on this, legally trans people are allowed on the team they identify as

and corrik you love the law so that must be the right answer
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MoogleKupo141 posted...

oh also I found this while looking up bathroom stuff on Wikipedia

May 2016, the United States Department of Justice and the United States Department of Education released a joint guidance on the application of Title IX protections to transgender students.[15] The guidance stated that for the purpose of Title IX, the Department of Justice and the Department of Education treat a student's gender identity as their sex. The guidance was followed by a formal "Dear Colleague" letter on May 13.[1

so, i think based on this, legally trans people are allowed on the team they identify as

and corrik you love the law so that must be the right answer

"should"

Obviously they can now in many states. The question is should they?

Like, should they allow illegal immigrants to fill out the census. They can if allowed by law. The question is, should they be allowed to though?

This is an opinion question.
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Corrik7 posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Lopen posted...

Corrik7 posted...

The reason the women's divisions began is because it was so women wouldn't get hurt against men and so they could compete and actually play.

(This is to Jakyl) If it's actually just about representing men and women that's fine. What is your counterpoint to that, though?

One could argue that preserving a competitive environment is also paramount. Do you think that trans women being the new meta for women's division dominance is okay? What about the biological females that also want to compete?

I feel thats a moot point, since it happens so rarely that a trans athlete dominates amongst the thousands of them participating in sports that you cannot logically say that its due to their biology

In some hypothetical universe where trans women dominated biological females, there would probably be enough trans women to start a different league

How many transgender athletes are failing to dominate in women's sports?

Because you talk like you know this happens rarely. I want numbers.

To be honest no one knows, because trans athletes being out of the closet is relatively new.

But the few that are out really dont dominate. Fallon Fox was not a championship level fighter. Renee Richards never won a tennis major. Hannah Mounceys team doesnt win World Handball Championships. Theres a list of more on Wikipedia I can sift through

Heres the IOC guidelines for the Olympics

The new guidelines require only that trans woman athletes declare their gender and not change that assertion for four years, and demonstrate a testosterone level of less than 10 nanomoles/liter for at least one year prior to competition and throughout the period of eligibility. Athletes who transitioned from female to male were allowed to compete without restriction. These guidelines were in effect for the 2016 Rio Olympics, although no openly transgender athletes competed.[9]

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yeah but the law says they should and you cant disagree with the law
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MoogleKupo141 posted...

yeah but the law says they should and you cant disagree with the law

I disagree with the law all the time. It is to be followed though or at least accept the consequences when you fail to follow it.
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Corrik7 posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

(And also because newborns dont have gender identity yet)

So why should gender be on any birth certificate and not just the sex?

So, again, why are we changing sex on birth certificates after the fact?

Precisely because gender isnt on a birth certificate but we need some legal way to change gender and thats the best we have come up with

We should come up with something better, I agree!
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Lopen, how did I do?
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Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik7 posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

(And also because newborns dont have gender identity yet)

So why should gender be on any birth certificate and not just the sex?

So, again, why are we changing sex on birth certificates after the fact?

Precisely because gender isnt on a birth certificate but we need some legal way to change gender and thats the best we have come up with

We should come up with something better, I agree!

Simplest answer is to just have an ID card / drivers license that if your sex and Gender do not match that it enters a gender designation on the card also to account for it. Otherwise it doesn't list gender at all.

Basically, the entire system needs rehauled in regards to it. And, sitting here knowing that and arguing women's and men's sports is supposed to be dictating gender and not sex as intended is silly.

The divisions are separated to allow opportunities, fairer competition, and for safety.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Lopen, how did I do?

I mean, you made a single counter argument and when countered just said all counters are moot basically.

I'd say not swell, by Lopen's standards!
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Corrik, what are your thoughts on women in NASCAR?
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The ironic part, Lopen, is that if it wasn't so socially unacceptable by most, you would probably have Russia or someone fielded almost entirely transgender women teams in the Olympics. Some countries have no shame in going to whatever lengths to win.

That said, the social unacceptance is the major barrier stopping that.
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Dude I just posted the IOC guidelines
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Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik, what are your thoughts on women in NASCAR?

I don't have a problem with women competing with men in any sports that the consensus is that it is fair and not biologically dangerous. However, if there are distinct divisions, they are they're likely for a reason.

For example, women can join the NBA. Yet none are there. Why? They competitively can't compete.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Dude I just posted the IOC guidelines

I know what the guidelines are.
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Yes and the reason for the divisions is representation
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