Board 8 > Game of Thrones Season 7 - The lone wolf dies... (SPOILERS)

(+) Yeah! (+)

I assume they didn't introduce Spoiler because they wanted returning from the dead to be more special and rare.
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What is the azor ahai?
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xp1337 posted...

...Sam? Unless the extent of his role really was to tell Jon that Dragonstone has a bunch of dragonglass.

Sam is clearly slated to become Gandalf from The Return of the King. You know the scene I mean. He's safe until he does that, if nothing else.

And don't worry about being the "the books are better" guy; I'm in that camp, too, and we have plenty of company.

....Where the hell has Quaithe been?
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GANON1025 posted...

What is the azor ahai?

the prince who was promised.

More usefully, it's the Jesus guy in the Lord of Light's cult. Mellisandre was convinced Stannis was him, which was why she followed/supported him.
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GANON1025 posted...

What is the azor ahai?

I... actually forget if the show ever even mentioned it.

tl;dr: It's the "hero" that Melisandre was looking for. She thought it was Stannis and that's why she was helping him. There's a bunch of prophecy/story around it but again, not sure if the show ever covered that.
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dowolf posted...

....Where the hell has Quaithe been?

in asshai with gendry
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I think it was old biases acting up with Dolorous Edd - he's still suspicious. Bran kind of reminds him, "It doesn't matter who I am."
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I'm cool with them cutting Spoiler because that character is fucking stupid and way too on the nose
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Spoilers made sense in the books because spoilers was the strongest anti-war character there, and then Spoilers broke. Spoilers is the fallout of that.

The anti-war themes have never been as strong in the show, though Ed Sheeran's scene makes me think that's changing? It'd be nice, anyways.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

i presume you're talking about theon's chapter, where stannis telling justin massey to put shireen on the iron throne, right? but he does that at zero cost to himself - the books have not put stannis in a position where he has to choose between the throne and shireen.

incidentally it's very likely he's doing this for strategic and political reasons

massey is emotional and untrustworthy, and this is the most valuable way to get rid of the guy while still making use of him. if stannis is "defeated" in the blizzard and people hear rumors that one of his knights is gathering sellswords across the narrow sea in order to put his daughter on the throne they are very likely to believe that stannis is dead. the reason is because we've historically seen this kind of behavior in the past when kings were killed.

massey might be important for any plot stannis has moving forward where he fakes his own death. but having him around is NOT important. because all he does is start shit between the two stannis factions, complain about how much he wants to marry asha, and fail spectacularly at keeping plans close to the chest. this is why stannis largely only shares intel with a few select guys and you'll note that massey is NOT among them.

giving the contents of the pink letter (regardless of who wrote it), it seems very likely that stannis wants the world to believe that he is dead at the moment.
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The book had anti-war themes? I never would've guessed at all from the show. Even this past episode had the good guys rallying to give little girls swords to go fight.
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yeah this is the biggest divide between the books and the show

the books are incredibly anti-war

the show glorifies violence
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only good part of the episode was Sam in the library
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I have a serious feeling that I admit I base on very little that the library is going to get destroyed somehow and all of the knowledge lost.
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why did we need a like 50 second shit montage is what I want to know

13 episodes left and that was worth keeping in the final cut
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you might remember something called
The Battle of the Blackwater
an invasion of king's landing
by sea
which stannis mounted
FROM DRAGONSTONE
I guess cersei did not think it was important to secure this undefended castle
when she knew Dany was going there
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

anyway starting from roughly the beginning
arya/frey stuff is a logistical nightmare and just feels like pointless fanservice, yeah
white walkers ominously marching was fine
northern politics was a good but not great scene
I think Jon and Sansa both had flaws in their way of thinking
and it was cool to showcase a situation where neither character was fully right
but
Jon was right about Sansa undermining him in front of others
they could have just talked about the situation in private and come to a decision
and secondly
the thing about girls fighting or whatever was just written really slopily
the idea is actually great, the execution was god awful
literally all they needed to do was say something simple like
'no I don't want your grand daughter to have to fight. but when the fucking gates are smashed down would you rather have her defenseless or holding a spear and knowing how to use it'
the end
Littlefinger just sitting there soaking it all in
was glorious
I love Littlefinger so much

yeah the show is definitely going to kill him
in a stupid way
I'm already prepared for it
so I won't be that butthurt
I learned my lesson with stannis
seriously though
he actually saved the north
like 100% he saved the north
and everyone there is acting like they don't want him there
"WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE"
like he saved your asses
I can't believe how ungrateful they are

arya with the soldiers was god damn brilliant
I was actually tense the entire time
because I was worrieed they were going to turn it into some awful scene of her killing all the soldiers for no reason
or even worse all of the soldiers just turn into evil rapists
and she is forced to kill them all
but actually showing there are humans and decent people on both sides
and it's not a completely black and white world

especially for Arya who just murdered EVERY SINGLE FREY
similar to Sansa undermining Jon
I felt like this followed that theme
with Arya's earlier decision being undermined
when she sees there are good people on the enemy side too
and ones that she could relate to and talk with and stuff
the hound stuff was awesome as well
especially with it being the father and daughter he stole gold from in the previous season
which presumably led to them starving to death

cersei and jaime stuff was a lot better than I was expecting in particular
especially with how poor they've been handled the last two seasons
it felt cool to have them participating in real conversations
talking about managing the realm
etc. etc.
and also the complicated feelings between them
were handled decently
a lot of stuff was unsaid but you could still infer what was going on there
particularly the scene with euron felt very reminscent of season 1 at times, with jaime trying to intentionally antagonize people and them discussing old war stories
and I feel like euron played right into cersei's hand which was pretty well done
basically euron goes and does something for her in order to deliver a 'gift' so that she'll marry him
for cersei this is a lot better than just marrying him and then hoping he lives up to his end of the deal
and if she chooses later she can just go back on her end of the deal
so she put herself in a really strong position with that play

oh the sam cleaning shit pots montage
might actually be the worst scene
in the history of the show

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can you imagine any system of logic aside from television writing
where this makes a shred of sense
stannis is like
YOU KILLED A WHITE WALKER, DIDN'T YOU
SAM THE SLAYER
sam is like y-y-y- you kn-know wwhat dragonglass is don't ye
and stannis goes
I KNOW WHAT IT IS
WE HAVE IT ON DRAGONSTONE
A WHOLE MOUNTAIN OF IT
KEEP READIN YER BOOKS, SAM THE SLAYER
WE NEED TO KNOW HOW TO DEFEAT THESE THINGS
and sam goes
y-y-yess sir
I will oh boy
sam then immediately forgets about the mountain of dragonglass
and goes to talk to jon about how he's been fucking gilly and how awesome he is for breaking his vows
and jon, the lord commander, is all like
bro dude
you got laid my man
broooo
awesome!!

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MariaTaylor posted...

can you imagine any system of logic aside from television writing
where this makes a shred of sense
stannis is like
YOU KILLED A WHITE WALKER, DIDN'T YOU
SAM THE SLAYER
sam is like y-y-y- you kn-know wwhat dragonglass is don't ye
and stannis goes
I KNOW WHAT IT IS
WE HAVE IT ON DRAGONSTONE
A WHOLE MOUNTAIN OF IT
KEEP READIN YER BOOKS, SAM THE SLAYER
WE NEED TO KNOW HOW TO DEFEAT THESE THINGS
and sam goes
y-y-yess sir
I will oh boy
sam then immediately forgets about the mountain of dragonglass
and goes to talk to jon about how he's been fucking gilly and how awesome he is for breaking his vows
and jon, the lord commander, is all like
bro dude
you got laid my man
broooo
awesome!!

XFD yeah. This would be similar to the 3-month rule in wrestling, where old plotlines are never brought up again.
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Wait, Stannis already told Sam about dragonglass at Dragonstone?

lmao what
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shit montage was fucking awesome, fuck you all for hating on it
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The fact that the montage went on for waaaaay too long was amazing
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I did laugh when it started quick-cutting between the shit and the slop, but mostly because with like 7 episodes left in the entire show and they're spending half an episode showing literal shit.
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MariaTaylor posted...

you might remember something called
The Battle of the Blackwater
an invasion of king's landing
by sea
which stannis mounted
FROM DRAGONSTONE
I guess cersei did not think it was important to secure this undefended castle
when she knew Dany was going there
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

i don't know if the lannisters knew that dragonstone was abandoned. it's plausible that stannis left a garrison, and it only deserted sometime between stannis's death and cersei's ascent to the crown. does king's landing even still have a navy since the battle of the blackwater and the breakup with the tyrells?

arya/frey stuff is a logistical nightmare and just feels like pointless fanservice, yeah

baking lothar and black walder into a pie was a logistical nightmare. killing everyone with wine seems faaaar more plausible imo

arya/frey stuff is a logistical nightmare and just feels like pointless fanservice, yeah
white walkers ominously marching was fine
northern politics was a good but not great scene
I think Jon and Sansa both had flaws in their way of thinking
and it was cool to showcase a situation where neither character was fully right
but
Jon was right about Sansa undermining him in front of others
they could have just talked about the situation in private and come to a decision
and secondly
the thing about girls fighting or whatever was just written really slopily
the idea is actually great, the execution was god awful
literally all they needed to do was say something simple like
'no I don't want your grand daughter to have to fight. but when the fucking gates are smashed down would you rather have her defenseless or holding a spear and knowing how to use it'
the end

agreed with everything line by line here - just want to add that i did like that jon actually talked logistics about EWbtS and how to staff it. also: davos should know that dragonstone has obsidian under it. whoops.

Littlefinger just sitting there soaking it all in
was glorious
I love Littlefinger so much

yeah the show is definitely going to kill him
in a stupid way
I'm already prepared for it
so I won't be that butthurt
I learned my lesson with stannis
seriously though
he actually saved the north
like 100% he saved the north
and everyone there is acting like they don't want him there
"WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE"
like he saved your asses
I can't believe how ungrateful they are

lmao

arya with the soldiers was god damn brilliant
I was actually tense the entire time
because I was worrieed they were going to turn it into some awful scene of her killing all the soldiers for no reason
or even worse all of the soldiers just turn into evil rapists
and she is forced to kill them all
but actually showing there are humans and decent people on both sides
and it's not a completely black and white world

especially for Arya who just murdered EVERY SINGLE FREY
similar to Sansa undermining Jon
I felt like this followed that theme
with Arya's earlier decision being undermined
when she sees there are good people on the enemy side too
and ones that she could relate to and talk with and stuff
the hound stuff was awesome as well
especially with it being the father and daughter he stole gold from in the previous season
which presumably led to them starving to death

i agree with every one of these words
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I think the writers gave up on trying to make travel times make sense.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

agreed with everything line by line here - just want to add that i did like that jon actually talked logistics about EWbtS and how to staff it. also: davos should know that dragonstone has obsidian under it. whoops.

yeah. also since these are just my running thoughts I copied over from a discord chat I had the other day, I didn't bother to do an official write up. but I do feel the need to expand on what I said about jon and sansa both being "right" to some extent. aside from the fact that we see people on the internet arguing both pro-jon and pro-sansa stances (which shows that the directors at least intended for the audience to be split over this, a wise directing choice).

so it is true that sansa undermined jon by starting an argument between two of the top leaders in the north during the middle a huge meeting between all of the northern lords. yes, it would be better for them to discuss the issue in private. HOWEVER. this is a clear indication that jon NEVER brought the issue up previously or asked sansa or anyone else in private how they felt about it. he essentially just made his own decision and decided to wait to reveal it until he was in a position to dole out orders. not cool at all.

what sansa did was not the best way to handle the situation, but her other option was essentially to just wait and not say anything until later on when jon has already gotten his way. I don't think jon did this intentionally either, nor was sansa intentionally trying to undermine him.

anyway littlefinger just lurking there with a smile on his face watching these basic northern politics unfold is like having lebron sitting in the bleachers at a high school basketball game.
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so we know of four major battles:

1. the siege of casterly rock

2. the field of fire (possibly linked to the siege?) - jaime is shown here in the trailer

3. the massive, fiery naval battle - this could take place near dorne, since that's where yara is going

4. the northmen and brotherhood of banners getting smashed by the army of the dead - this will presumably take place at east-watch

when do we see these battles taking place, and to what outcome?
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MariaTaylor posted...

anyway littlefinger just lurking there with a smile on his face watching these basic northern politics unfold is like having lebron sitting in the bleachers at a high school basketball game.

lmfao

There's definitely evidence that Jon hasn't been consulting Sansa. My issue is that the writers have actually given us a reason to sympathize with Jon not asking Sansa's opinion - he asked her point-blank what to do against Ramsay, and she decided not to mention 'I can provide 5K of heavy cavalry as backup.' It was one of the worst moments of writing last season, yet the writers played it off as a major triumph for Sansa, which bothered me.

(but yes, the fault here isn't with either character, necessarily, but in the communication failure)
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4 is what the end the season on, for sure
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east-watch will probably be awesome. if there's one thing the show usually does well it is northern battles.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

he asked her point-blank what to do against Ramsay, and she decided not to mention 'I can provide 5K of heavy cavalry as backup.'

Forgot about that nonsense

Then again the real problem is if the show goes back to taking itself super seriously and losing its head up its own ass. If it keeps the self aware entertaining feel then this kind of stuff is okay, since after all, it's entertaining.
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foolm0r0n posted...

SeabassDebeste posted...

he asked her point-blank what to do against Ramsay, and she decided not to mention 'I can provide 5K of heavy cavalry as backup.'

Forgot about that nonsense

Then again the real problem is if the show goes back to taking itself super seriously and losing its head up its own ass. If it keeps the self aware entertaining feel then this kind of stuff is okay, since after all, it's entertaining.

Well,

1. Littlefinger was never sending his army in when it could accrue losses. His goal was to rout the enemy with no losses and the North accrruing many.

2. She couldn't have known if they would come or not. She could only ask. And the more they delayed the attack, the more their army dwindles.
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foolm0r0n posted...

The book had anti-war themes? I never would've guessed at all from the show. Even this past episode had the good guys rallying to give little girls swords to go fight.

One of my favorite quotes from ASoIaF, said by Jorah to Dany in the very first book:

The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace. They never are.

The show, of course, replaced this with more WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS.
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that line is said in season 1. <_<
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Was it? I literally tried to search for it, and failed.

EDIT: But it is on IMBD, slightly modified. My bad.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKYfSJAGhOI
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I watched the show first, and I remembered the line being said by Jorah. Actually, I thought Jorah was the POV character in Dany's story for the first season. Don't remember when I learned otherwise.
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The show was actually good in S1 so that makes sense
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I'm still willing to chalk up Sansa not telling Jon about the Knights of the Vale as a strategy. Ramsay sees Jon roll up with them and he's holing up in Winterfell for a siege, which will take time that Jon doesn't have. Having the odds in his favor drew Ramsay out and let the cavalry surround him.

That and it kinda fits with Sansa's character of thinking she knows better. It's entirely like her to spite Jon for not listening to her.
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JetJaguar posted...

It's entirely like her to spite Jon for not listening to her.

Not when his and hers and the entire army's life is on the line

There is nothing logical about what she did
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It was not strategy it was just Sansa being a dimwit.

She has a lot to live up to to match her mother's worst mistake though. She hasn't even come close to that, but she's on the right path at this point.
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it's TV logic basically. everything that happens is based in the idea that the audience knows that littlefinger is a villain. even though jon and no one from the north has even met the dude. for some reason sansa has to keep his involvement a secret. this is because we, the viewers, know he is a villain. even though the characters do not and so in-world it makes no sense. since this is TV writing all the characters on the show would just magically know and they'd be like "WE CAN'T TRUST LITTLEFINGER." even though they have no reason to believe this.

same with everyone being super ungrateful to him even though he saved the north with his army at no personal benefit to himself. in the real world people would be kissing the guy's ass. but since we, the audience, know that he is a villain the show runners feel the need to baby us and have everyone act suspicious and cold toward littlefinger.
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There's a decent, if not good, chance that Littlefinger's role in Ned's downfall is known or at least suspected in the North. Or perhaps more likely, his role in securing the Tyrell alliance that saved the Lannisters from Stannis at Blackwater. Neither of which would rate well with the North.

edit: or of course that he gave sansa to the boltons. which is a decision so stupid i forgot it happened
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They probably also realize he's literally a mustache twirling cartoon bad guy
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Aidan Gillen really gets overlooked for his work on the show, Littlefinger is default p cool but not like amazing but Aidan really makes him way more personable and likable.
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Yeah, but he's likable because he's a conspicuous mustache-twirler who talks like a supervillain.

Littlefinger in the books is supposed to be liked and seen as non-menacing. Since I saw the show first and since Aidan Gillen really resembles the physical description of Littlefinger, I'm 100% unable to picture the books' LF the way GRRM meant!
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He was way better in The Wire. The script betrays him here.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

Littlefinger in the books is supposed to be liked and seen as non-menacing. Since I saw the show first and since Aidan Gillen really resembles the physical description of Littlefinger, I'm 100% unable to picture the books' LF the way GRRM meant!

book littlefinger = "wait, THAT GUY was playing everyone?"

show littlefinger = "yeah, that's the guy who tries to play everyone."
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MariaTaylor posted...

book littlefinger = "wait, THAT GUY was playing everyone?"

For real?

lmao why does any book reader tolerate even 1 episode of this show
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foolm0r0n posted...

MariaTaylor posted...

book littlefinger = "wait, THAT GUY was playing everyone?"

For real?

lmao why does any book reader tolerate even 1 episode of this show

yeah it's a pretty huge difference. to be fair, though, LF and Stannis are probably the two characters MOST dramatically and negatively affected by their show representation. so it's only a huge deal if one of these two is your favorite character. although for a lot of book fans (myself included) they definitely easily place within your top characters. so yeah...

I will say I've found it difficult to get hyped about the show, especially over the last few seasons. but it's still decent to watch.

anyway one of the big things about Littlefinger in the books is that he doesn't appear as much nor does he state his intentions outright as often. a lot of scenes involve people seeing him from a very limited point of view and needing to take his words at face value. he almost always puts on a mask of a pretty unassuming guy who is just fairly nice, and is good at his job. some people do know that he's a bit ambitious but because he comes from a very small family and doesn't have much political capital to begin with they find it very difficult to see him as a threat (he uses this to his advantage by overstepping his boundaries and often making huge moves behind the scenes).

he also disappears from the books for large portions of time, during which he's offscreen manipulating events such as the murder of joffrey or other things. I don't think the show did a great job at stressing how important it was the littlefinger actually left king's landing well before the wedding which is a good move to take himself off the list of suspects. it's really not until the later books where he reveals in private how much that he was responsible for that even the reader starts to get an idea of how much he was capable of. this is during the scene where he kills lysa which is wayyyy more awesome in the books.

and there's lots of indication that he has plenty of other insane plans in the works. for example in the books he has been going around collecting wards and buying up debt from houses all over the realm, especially in certain key locations. for this reason many readers speculate he is about to make some sort of HUGE play in which he'll leverage these advantages to force a bunch of people to side with him, and none of them realizing just how powerful he's become until he reveals his full hand.
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