Board 8 > The Mercenaries CE build review topic part 2

(+) Yeah! (+)

"Extremely high odds"

20c5 using all permutations of the four suits of 10 Jack Queen King Ace is 15504. Divide into 4 based on all four suits gives us the result of 0.000257997936, or a 0.0003% chance of Royal Flush. Now let's be generous and assume with replacement, you get three of King, Ace, 10 same suit on your first deal, which is still a 0.004% chance of occurring. Replacing this with 15c2 gives us 210 combinations, of which exactly one is valid for a royal flush.

To put it in perspective, a raw Royal Flush has the odds of 0.0001% of occurring.

It is, by far, the least likely trigger.

Yeah, you have to keep in mind that there are four suits to deal with too.
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Considering that has been addressed, let's move one.

Here's Charles Barkley: http://mercsce.pbworks.com/w/page/112506967/Charles%20Barkley

I'm honestly not a fan of characters like this on principle. I firmly believe it would encourage too much joke voting, especially given we'll be working with a new playerbase.

#NOBARKLEYNOPEACE

That build is perfect in every way and I love it

NO CHANGES

(also solid defense of the flush rig kamek, consider my complaints rescinded)
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I would be against it if I didn't actually really like Shut Up And Jam Gaiden as a game. Like I'd agree with you if it was Dikembe Mutombo as he appears in Dikembe Mutombo 4 and 1/2 Weeks To Save the World, but Barkley's legitimately a character just played straight in-game. Basketball is also the most transitive sport other than wrestling or boxing to a mercs environment, and I had thought it would be fun and interesting enough to argue with... honestly probably being easier to work around than waterball.

Dunno, Shut Up And Jam Gaiden is legitimately a game rather than a piece of crap meme and I like Barkley is really my only argument.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

NO CHANGES

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Johnbobb posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

NO CHANGES

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my only worries, having been railroaded by chuck WITH teleports and flying not expressly banned, is that...its basically a match win if it ever resolves

however i do like the idea of a nba rules sidetopic. why not have barkley & vince carter attempt to do a 2v5 match

or something

i dunno, auto win abilities are dumb imo
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Well it's not the event of "he gets the quad city DJ's", it's just "both teams play basketball and one of them is barkley".

Like Mario's got canon NBA basketball experience. It's a far more even playing field.

Yeah

The reason you got stomped is that it was literally Barkley, his Messiah of Slam son, Lebron James' grandson, a cyberdwarf whose very skin is B-Balls and cyborg Vince Carter

Odds are JUST charles doesn't autowin
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Yeah, it's definitely swinging in Barkley's favor, but unless you think his team's strategy is "Just give Ko-- her, Barkley the ball" and that's viable, it's certainly winnable on either side.
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i think it's far too volatile to place the stakes of an entire match on it (yes i know it cant be used in elims etc)

for instance i think it's kinda feasible that charles barkley with 4 other warm bodies wins almost every time aka the little mac effect
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Basketball is a team sport, I don't see it. Like I left flying and tele in specifically for the fact that "Barkley can't dodge that", plus this is post-cyberpocalypse Barkley, so he's nerfed from Peak Barkley due to his knee.

Well, since no one is saying anything should be changed, we can move on regardless.

Here's Charlie http://mercsce.pbworks.com/w/page/107424789/Charlie%20Nash

His abilities are pretty much written to be thematic, so they probably need a fair amount of tweaking.

Second ability needs to have a clause to allow it to trigger during rosters

Otherwise it only works if you go second which absolutely blows
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First ability needs to consider what happens if the merc KOing Charlie isn't rostered.
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Both of the above have been fixed.

Also reworked Bowser Party to be more viable: http://mercsce.pbworks.com/w/page/108755518/Bowser

Reverse Minigame is good to the point of being kinda bullshit if it's ever rolled successfully, especially if it's rolled in an elim match or something and just "oh I won because Bowser says so lol guess you're dead". Much prefer it applying to Bowser's next match where both sides are trying to lose or something. Otherwise it's preferable to its previous form but still very confused in what exactly it wants to be doing. Perhaps add a stip where Bowser will limit it to a pool of three options for additional weeks of recharge?

Yeah, should probably add a line saying Reverse Minigame won't be rolled during elimination or playoff matches.

Reverse Minigame is trash as is, yes, fix to Kamek's idea of 'next match both sides are trying to lose'
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Any more adjustments need to be made to Charlie?

up?

Also, anyone want to try and come up with a alternate version of Reverse Minigame?

Make it so both sides "won" the match?
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To my original proposal:

Reverse Minigame - Bowser gains the following one-use trigger.

Reverse Minigame (Trigger) - If Bowser is rostered, he will change the match into a Reverse Minigame match. Whichever team loses the fight (i.e. receives less votes) will be considered the winner. Forfeiting will not apply toward this and will go through as a normal loss.

Gives Bowser something to work toward and makes it harder to work around, while also being preventable with pre-battles. Instantly turns Bowser into something of a Big or Annie where taking him out with pre-battles is actually useful. Potentially give him the option to turn it on and off.

Alternatively, turn Bowser into something more offensive with something like this:

Bowser Space (Peacetime) - Once every other week, Bowser may place a Bowser Space on a pre-selected terrain. While a Bowser Space is on a terrain, Bowser will be able to use the terrain as his own. If the terrain is used, the Bowser Space is removed, but Bowser will visit the mercenary it is attached to, causing one of the following effects

<Bowser Party Roulette>

If a Bowser Space remains on a terrain for five weeks, Bowser will permanently "kidnap" the terrain from the mercenary, making it unusable for them for the remainder of the game and available to Bowser for the remainder of the game. Optionally, a merc leader may negotiate a sum of up to 15 GP to be paid to Bowser's merc leader for the terrain to be given back during Peacetime. There is no limit to the amount of Bowser Spaces that can be placed on terrains.

Makes it a far more targeted effect, decidedly econ focused, and still allows Bowser to be a dick. Again these are just rough drafts but ideas to pass around.

Well, if no one else has anything to say about Charlie, let's move on to Charizard:

http://mercsce.pbworks.com/w/page/111868363/Charizard

I think a good standard for Pokemon would be "as they appear in Pokken Tournament", since that's a real-time non-crossover game, and I doubt any Pokemon will be used that AREN'T in Pokken.

I feel that's a general disservice to their durability and versatility, but I agree that Pokken should be the base in most cases, or at least included.

The problem is as we've seen with M4, trying to translate anything from the base Pokemon games themselves is not worth the effort. Need I remind you the whole "Pikachu = Golem in special attack" thing?

Also, versatility can be made up with with a character upgrade giving stat-boosting or different type moves from the main games, ones that have very concrete effects.

I feel like the change to Bowser Party is a sign that none of the feedback is even being listened to here-- what was even changed on that one week of recharge? (and the dumb reverse minigame option)
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Lopen posted...

I feel like the change to Bowser Party is a sign that none of the feedback is even being listened to here-- what was even changed on that one week of recharge?

I buffed several of the options, removed the pointless ones?

Buffing the options doesn't really make the ability good unless you overbuff them-- better to just nerf them and reduce the recharge to like nothing if you do that.

The problem has always been that optimal situation for each of the options to be rolled are all different. You didn't actually change that.
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One option would be to make it hte primary ability and give it an upgrade that lets you choose the target after the result is rolled.

The best part of the ability right now to me is "at least it's an upgrade you can just ignore" so not sure that's an improvement.

Not sure why you're so against Bowser Shell. The amount of improvement this ability needs to even get on par with that (in terms of strength and also being balanced) doesn't seem worth the effort. Like even now your approach to buffing it is rather strange-- reverse minigame is like broken. Putting a broken option on it is kind of a weird way to fix it. Kamek's fix doesn't really help as it hinges the whole match on a roster selection mindgame if they don't remove Bowser as they can either choose to roster a single character that loses to Bowser in hopes you roster Bowser, or roster a normal team that'd beat yours and hope you don't roster him. Not as broken but just as degenerate.

I think Kamek's other idea of placing it on a terrain is closer to the right idea for fixing it. Like... place it on an enemy terrain in secret, if the terrain is chosen, it does something. But then when doing it actually make it do something relevant to the match like screw with the roster or an ability use or I dunno-- maybe ALSO do some random results thing if the space is landed on at that point since it's just gravy, but the point is the base ability must have some degree of consistency in what you're meaning to achieve when using it, and it just doesn't have that right now.
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Let's see uh, a crack at it.

Bowser Space (Pre-Battle, Recharge 1) - Once every other week, Bowser may place one of his Bowser Spaces on a pre-selected enemy mercenary's terrain, chosen in secret. This Bowser Space will remain for the rest of the game until its terrain is chosen, giving the target mercenary a copy of the following Trigger which is lost upon Triggering:

Bowser Event (Trigger) - After rosters are revealed, if this mercenary's terrain was chosen, they and every rostered member of their team will show up to the battle 30 seconds late and fatigued, having just competed in a grueling Bowser minigame. This will not cause them to miss Start of Battle Effects, and the enemy team will be aware of this.

Bowser Party (Results) - Bowser never lets anyone get away from one of his Bowser Spaces without paying up. If any team Triggered a Bowser Event this Wartime and did not lose to Bowser's team, you may use this ability against them. Roll one of the following options:

RANDOM SET OF THINGS FROM ORIGINAL ABILITY MINUS THE DEGENERATE REVERSE THING

This ability may be used any number of times per Results, may be used even if Bowser is KOed Possessed or otherwise unable to use abilities for any reason, and if Bowser was rostered this Wartime you may pre-select the option instead.

Just as a start maybe tweak things a bit I haven't thought about recharges or any of that too much, and the effect may be a bit strong. Maybe make the Bowser space expire after some amount of time? But this is what I mean by needing a consistent element to the ability. Maybe give it an upgrade to let him get an effect even if the target's terrain isn't chosen if Bowser is rostered I don't know.
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I like that version, but I don't see a need to have the separate trigger ability for the delayed effect. Anyway, further balancing can come later.

Any discussion on Charizard? My proposed rewrite for it's writeup would be something like "Charizard is as he/she appears in Pokken Tournament (though the standard Pokemon type weaknesses/resistances still apply to him/her). He/she is capable of strategically fighting and using synergy burst without a trainer.", with a character upgrade giving it access to Dragon Dance, Sunny Day, Tailwind, and Smokescreen from Sun/Moon.

Trigger is needed just to make the ability cleaner imo. Otherwise you'd run into all this timing nonsense and it's less clean to word the Results ability.
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As for Charizard I don't really think Rage is a very good ability as damage output has never really been Charizard's problem

But I don't really have any ideas that are better either.
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Yeah, I don't think Rage is that good either. Maybe First Edition can come back in some better, actually useful form. Maybe it could be the "the character is as they appear at the start of their game in their first appearance" ability.

up?

@Kamekguy please help

I felt like Rage was a decent ability that gave Charizard lategame longevity as a panic button, especially since, as I recall, the 'zard's durability came into question, so giving him a great one shot would significantly increase his worth, especially with changes to his battle model wherein he gets actually useful attacks other than "fire" and "more fire". I also greatly prefer it to have its natural learnset because it prevents shit like "well it doesn't have fly in Pokken so it can't fly like in the anime" or "well it has no feats in Pokken just its moveset so stuff like it being able to use Strength is non applicable". Feel like the games make for a more versatile 'Zard, even if I do agree that Pokken should absolutely be the base for demonstrations of mobility and whatnot. Personally I see it like saying a Persona character is as they appear in Arena rather than one of the RPG's - limits their utility and actual purpose in a party rather drastically.

Not of the opinion that much should change, but if we're looking for alternatives to Rage, just some ideas:

-Something to do with its tail burning out killing it, i.e. sharing the same weakness with an enemy. Kinda gimmicky but effective.

-Something involving Blaze kicking in. Translate it to a buff to itself/an allied mercenary if an ally is KO'd or hit by an ability post-rosters.

-USE SEISMIC TOSS so Charizard super dizzies an enemy before battle.

-Base it entirely on his first Pokemon card. Starts by setting two enemies on fire, can turn other abilities into "sets an additional target on fire", adds one week of recharge if they're weekly abilities.

-Bring in Pokemon Trainer Red, who can swap Charizard for another member of the GSC crew (that being Pikachu, Espeon, Snorlax, Venusaur, Blastoise), or allow three of them one at a time or something, or let him have access to potions and shit to heal Pokemon.

Well, we've wasted enough time on Charizard for now. We'll come back later.

How about Chromie http://mercsce.pbworks.com/w/page/111363445/Chromie

Chromie I made entirely because 1.) she muh gurl and 2.) I thought the ability would be interesting. More just want opinions on the ability.

I like the ability quite a bit, especially the injury risk. Can't say much about the character herself.
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Kamekguy posted...

Base it entirely on his first Pokemon card. Starts by setting two enemies on fire, can turn other abilities into "sets an additional target on fire", adds one week of recharge if they're weekly abilities.

This is my favorite use this one please.
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yesssss, go with that one

Also re: Chromie, I'm unsure about letting her go full bronze dragon. Those dudes have potent timehax and total immunity to magic. I feel like it's gonna be a major interp nightmare or make her massively OP because hey, time traveler who's tanky and thus doesn't have the issues of someone like The Prince or Ekko. Rest looks aight though
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Specified WC3 Bronze Dragon for that specific purpose because those are entirely quantifiable creeps who do get the magic immunity but no timey wimey

For Chromie, I'd advise against making her writeup "as she appears in Heroes of the Storm". That's like making a Mario build and saying "as he appears in Smash Bros.". She can still get the Heroes of the Storm abilities, but make her writeup base whatever her source game is.

She really only has HotS as a base for combat. I designed her with HotS in mind. It'd be like saying "Rosalina is as she appears in Mario Galaxy" or "ROB is as he appears in Stack Up". I feel like her HotS abilities on their own give her an interesting and enjoyable contribution as a battle merc.

What Kamek said, you really don't want 'as she appears in her source game' Chromie, 'cause well...

Chronormu is a female bronze dragon. As a member of the bronze dragonflight, Chronormu seeks to maintain and restore various timelines of importance in Azeroth's recent history.

yeah.

Kamekguy posted...

Specified WC3 Bronze Dragon for that specific purpose because those are entirely quantifiable creeps who do get the magic immunity but no timey wimey

My main worry is people giving her canon feats nonetheless. You could say 'as seen in the gameplay', I suppose, but then she doesn't really need such a big XP cost on her upgrade. It's just a big dragon with no gimmicks, every 5/week and up would thrash her.
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"big dragon with no gimmicks" would presumably shred in a low pool, which is where I would assume such an ability would be used and was the intent.