Board 8 > The Mercenaries CE build review topic part 2

(+) Yeah! (+)

Builds that still need to be revisited:

Abyss Watchers (general concept)
Adam Jensen (finish writeup and loadout)
Wesker (upgrade ability)
Alucard (plan options)
Akuma (ability upgrade to be determined after buy-down rules are finalized)
Asura (general concept)
Bandana Waddle Dee (I still think a lower recharge with 10 per neutral instead of 100 is better)
Bayonetta (how 7s should be implemented)
Beatrix (whether or not she should exist without Orders are Orders)

Next up is Blob http://mercsce.pbworks.com/w/page/113183605/Blob

This... build seems really bad. I don't think it was finished.

Nah, it looks decent to me. The only thing is that the Blanc/Papa Blanc upgrade needs to be baked into Monochromatic Morons. It's really good on big terrains if you have the right merc to combo with it. Niche, obviously, but when it shines it really shines. Make it 'strength and damage dealt' instead of just strength if you wanna buff it, that way ranged attackers and casters still benefit from it.
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Also, reposting the Bayonetta nerf passive draft, because it's way too good to just be forgotten

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Also, better nerf passive for Bayonetta, actually delivering on that theorycrafting I did earlier

"When you cherish something, never lose it." (Passive): Somehow, Bayonetta always finds herself taking care of cute children inbetween bouts of nonstop climax action. Whenever Bayonetta is rostered, she will be accompanied by little Cereza as a free assist who is immune and untargetable by all abilities. Bayonetta will prioritize Cereza's safety above all else, even her own life, and should Cereza die, she will leave the fight immediately. This passive cannot be disabled or cancelled by any means.

-Ability Upgrade: "When you cherish something, never lose it" is replaced with the following passive.

"That makes two of us. And it'll take two of us, won't it, love?" (Passive): Whenever Bayonetta is rostered, she will be accompanied by Loki, as seen in Bayonetta 2 (though with no access to his shapeshifting powers nor God of Chaos reality warping), as a free assist. He is considered a Heroic Male Otherworldly of 5/week upkeep for ability purposes, and is susceptible to abilities as normal, existing before rosters as though he were a permanent mercenary. If Bayonetta is defeated, Loki will leave the battle, and viceversa (and Bayonetta cannot be rostered if Loki is affected by any sort of removal). Each will prioritize the safety of the other above all else.

If somebody could port it over to her wiki page that'd be good. God knows the current one is such hot garbage there is zero reason not to swap it.
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Still need a new ability for the Anor Londo Archers too.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Nah, it looks decent to me. The only thing is that the Blanc/Papa Blanc upgrade needs to be baked into Monochromatic Morons. It's really good on big terrains if you have the right merc to combo with it. Niche, obviously, but when it shines it really shines. Make it 'strength and damage dealt' instead of just strength if you wanna buff it, that way ranged attackers and casters still benefit from it.

I think I'm completely missing the point of the first ability. How is it helpful? What does it even do?

I think I'm completely missing the point of the first ability. How is it helpful? What does it even do?

Merc paints terrain

As terrain gets painted, music grows louder and they get a strength parameter boost

In big terrains the merc paints a lot and gets like a 500% stronkness boost and mashes dudes, thus forcing the opponent to bid on an unfavorable cage match to avoid +Parameters from leading to solos votes

that's it
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Oh, I somehow completely missed the strength increase part. I blame the fact that I should have been asleep two hours ago.

However, the fact that it only increases the strength of music-having mercs makes it way too niche. Unless the first ability is changed somehow, I don't see it making the cut.

Skyridge87 posted...

Oh, I somehow completely missed the strength increase part. I blame the fact that I should have been asleep two hours ago.

However, the fact that it only increases the strength of music-having mercs makes it way too niche. Unless the first ability is changed somehow, I don't see it making the cut.

that's why I suggested making it 'strength and damage'. That way it's useful for any merc, just moreso melee duders due to the easy synergy with it for setting up damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't situations.
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bayonetta's upgrade is way too strong

if you arent removing her to begin with then you're getting a 2 in 1 basically
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greengravy294 posted...

bayonetta's upgrade is way too strong

if you arent removing her to begin with then you're getting a 2 in 1 basically

That's because it's a partial downgrade since Loki doesn't have perfect ability defense. You can use something like Great Aether to nuke him off the face of the planet and take Bayonetta out, when she'd no-sell that if you used it directly on her. You can also do something like pull Loki into your team with a hook ability and smash him and Bayonetta won't travel along with him, meaning it's much easier to take her out. The fact he will sometimes add a bunch of extra combat potential is compensation for making her super duper killable.
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and if you have nothing you may as well just forfeit that week.
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greengravy294 posted...

and if you have nothing you may as well just forfeit that week.

pish posh

Teams managed to beat me when I was dropping eight or nine dudes down, they certainly can handle one extra
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(alternative answer: "That's your fault for letting the strongest possible releasable mercenary hit the field without using any abilities on them, git gud and be less cocky")
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I'm think Blob needs to be reworked without the music stipulation. @Johnbobb can probably do something with it.

Until then, let's talk about the double whammy of Bub and Bob

http://mercsce.pbworks.com/w/page/110249314/Bub
http://mercsce.pbworks.com/w/page/110249479/Bob

Unless someone can come up with more compelling second abilities than the ones they had in M4, I'm fine with leaving the music abilities as unlocks and just making them super cheap, both for gp and exp.

Also, should their terrains be sized up? As it stands, most mercs reasonably can't fit in the terrains as they appear in game.

Removing those abilities is dumb

Bub and Bob had owners who left a mark. Why not honor that? I get it, new audience, but hints as to the long and storied past of Mercenaries generate curiosity, and thus attachment. May as well keep em.
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Possible alternative abilities for Bub and Bob, to capitalize on the co-op nature of the games:

Bub - The Rainbow Islands Connection (Pre-Battle) - Once every three weeks, Bub may provide a massive SYNERGY boost between two mercenaries who featured in the same game. Both mercenaries will gain a 100% parameter increase as long as the other is alive. If Bub and Bob are the targets of this ability, both will be completely invincible, though not required to be defeated.

Bob - THIS IS NOT AN ENDING! TRY AGAIN WITH YOUR FRIEND! (Pre-Battle) - Once every four weeks, Bob may target a random enemy mercenary. They will receive a BAD END, being immediately KO'd. However, if a mercenary from the same series is on the same team as that mercenary, they will miraculously stop the KO using the real superpower of teamwork. This ability will go on recharge as usual regardless of result. If a KO goes through, Bob must be rostered if possible. If Bub is on the enemy team, Bob will prioritize KO'ing him, and this ability will not go on recharge.

The music stipulation is like the whole point

And I think there are enough music Mercs that it's not too niche. Obviously it's someone you want to get if you have a feasible combo.

Plus if I remember Lou right, he gives his attached Merc a music passive, which creates more possibilities
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One of the big reasons I chose Blob and Lou was because we had so many music passives in Mercs 4 and they didn't actually make any sort of difference
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Which is exactly why there aren't going to be nearly as many in MCE. They served no real point.

LESS MUSIC?

http://mercsce.pbworks.com/w/page/115730698/Parappa%20the%20Rapper

I TAKE THAT AS A CHALLENGE

(please feel free to add more)

I saw that 'KICK! PUNCH! IT'S ALL IN THE MIND!' was not the first ability and was about to riot

then I saw the second one and all was good

(have not actually looked at mechanics, it's just that without that ability name Parappa is simply missing pieces of himself.)
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Added Anor Londo Archers to the wiki.

Want to add Big Band but man I feel like crap.
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Any more opinions on Bub and Bob?

up

Bring back general bub
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I think they are fine.
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Gave Bub and Bob back their M4 upgrade abilities.

Next is Boggy B http://mercsce.pbworks.com/w/page/112764916/Boggy%20B

I really like Sudden Death, but I think Shopper might be to similar to Collectathon. An ability that gives the match Worms turn based rules could be interesting.

Build mostly lookin' pretty good

Shopper is legit, but wouldn't be terribly opposed to another abil if it's actually better. Current one's fine tho
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Shopper is cool but thoroughly impractical because it's random. There is no way to quantify what is in each crate unless a mod rolls EVERY crate, which is... hard. It's in the spirit of Worms and I love it, but it's impractical in its current form since if it's combo'd with a large terrain, we have a chance of needing hundreds of crates to be rolled.

Shopper seems too goofy to be a valid ability, because there's some maps that it'd completely make shopper one of the silliest things ever [shakuras anyone?] and some maps where it'd be silly the other way, like boxing ring or dedede's ring, where it's just a bunch of people jumping on each other hoping to be lucky. [The hind-d is scouring the skies in bubbly clouds as we speak!]

You could do something on the idea of "Starting locations? Wherever works." where everyone's starting location [barring one person chosen on (your/each?) side is randomized somewhere on the map. We all know that sometimes locations in worms was completely silly sometimes.

pls no

No randomized locations

We're trying to standardize starter locations so that gets less shitty, any ability that rolls back a gamewide improvement is bad
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Kanzaris, you were the one that said shopping was okay, and that's the same thing except for it being everyone's abilities. If randomized locations is bad, so is no abilities with all the abilities being randomized across the landscape because that is just as bad.

ZeeksFire posted...

Kanzaris, you were the one that said shopping was okay, and that's the same thing except for it being everyone's abilities. If randomized locations is bad, so is no abilities with all the abilities being randomized across the landscape because that is just as bad.

No, it's not the same thing because one of these pertains to what happens once the match gets rolling. The other causes stupid arguments and an inability for the voters to talk to each other about the match before it even begins. Things that make it so you can't even discuss the match with other people are bad and shouldn't be included.
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I still think a possible upgrade ability like this could be cool:

[name, recharge] Boggy B can enforce the gentlewormly combat his games are known for. Each fighter will take individual turns, where they have 20 seconds to move around before performing a single attack, spell, etc. Turns will alternate between teams, with turn order being decided alphabetically and the attacking team going first.

Interp nightmare.

I love it.
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Yeah, I should have specified that more stipulations need to be added.

That seems better skyridge, but have it be that team members can move, but attacks/support/etc is passed back and forth down the line once every 5 seconds, They are instinctively aware when it is "Their turn."

Man, I can't wait for turn-based Divekick B-ball.
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ZeeksFire posted...

That seems better skyridge, but have it be that team members can move, but attacks/support/etc is passed back and forth down the line once every 5 seconds, They are instinctively aware when it is "Their turn."

That's not how Worms works, though.

What other things would need to be added to that ability for it to be more interp friendly?

Skyridge87 posted...

ZeeksFire posted...

That seems better skyridge, but have it be that team members can move, but attacks/support/etc is passed back and forth down the line once every 5 seconds, They are instinctively aware when it is "Their turn."

That's not how Worms works, though.

What other things would need to be added to that ability for it to be more interp friendly?

It might not be how worms works, but it also makes it so aoe/snipers get massive superiority to the point that melee is completely worthless, and team support gets wrecked as well. An ability should not be the be all end all to a fight that completely ruins a fight.

A good starter example on why this ability has issues as written. small terrain, first go rolled to boggy b, boggy b drops a banana bomb in the middle of the enemy team, or napalm strikes the enemy team which murders lots of equivelent targets before they can do anything, due to not being able to take a turn due to how the ability is worded. Or maybe someone just begins with ultima, or the like. Needless to say, an ability can't allow the entire opposing team to be completely vulnerable.

ZeeksFire posted...

An ability should not be the be all end all to a fight that completely ruins a fight.

Have you read Charles Barkley or Uncle Sensei
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no, but that doesn't mean their abilities are that good either.

You should read them. They're fantastic.
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It probably would have helped if I pinged @Johnbobb for the Worms discussion.

it's not his build so I don't think it helps much

(Unless Johnbobb is a huge worms mark in which case forget I said anything)
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

it's not his build so I don't think it helps much

(Unless Johnbobb is a huge worms mark in which case forget I said anything)

He's the last one to have edited it on the wiki.

yes, but it's still not his. It's from Smashnuke: http://z13.invisionfree.com/Merx/index.php?showtopic=31&st=150
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Also if you actually want a backup ability make it so all weapons for everybody are replaced with shotguns

It's a running Worms joke that the old boring shotgun tends to be much better than all the wacky fancy bullshit you have access to, to the point it's a plot point and how one of the games is resolved

When in doubt, KISS
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I didn't make it, just posted it. I am die-hard Worms fan though

What's the question?
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Johnbobb posted...

I didn't make it, just posted it. I am die-hard Worms fan though

What's the question?

Skyridge87 posted...

Gave Bub and Bob back their M4 upgrade abilities.

Next is Boggy B http://mercsce.pbworks.com/w/page/112764916/Boggy%20B

I really like Sudden Death, but I think Shopper might be to similar to Collectathon. An ability that gives the match Worms turn based rules could be interesting.