Board 8 > The Mercenaries CE build review topic part 2

(+) Yeah! (+)

Kamekguy posted...

Also should be Cool Spot.

Also acceptable if Chexter isn't chosen
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I'm just gonna put up Dan http://mercsce.pbworks.com/w/page/112972744/Dan%20Hibiki

If people still want to talk about Crunchling, whatever.

I'm just gonna echo Lopen's comments about Dan from way back tbqh

-why's taunt random, that's a shitass nerf
-why's it a BRUTAL TAUNT, what is this, Brutal Doom?
-why does it use new and more awkward wording when the original version was super simple and clean?
-Otoko Michi is worse than Little Girls Tie Bows from M4 (http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/102241603/Dan%20Hibiki). Why was it not reused?
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I think some of Kamek's suggestions are fair. Crunchling is definitely a solid 1/week.
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Please don't. Just... don't.
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I think my biggest irk with that build is the obscene Otoko Michi hype. Not only does the ability for it do way more damage than it ever did in any game (well let's just say most I'm sure there's one out there where it does more than it should), but we go so far as to even ban in the combat write-up. You'd think that was Dan's trademark maneuver from that build when the majority of fighting games he's in don't even have the move.

Pretty much any other Dan ability from any other game is better and more fitting than that one-- and this includes the stupid Archer spoof that wouldn't have the Archer reference making any sense without a lot of digging.
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If you want to keep it more in-character, I'd suggest taking inspiration from the UDON comics wherein he uses the move but trips on a backpack - just a zero i-frames super. Make it like a pre-selected KO, but ANY ability that targets him causes the ability to fizzle and go on like three weeks of recharge or something. Helps it act as an ability-styled taunt without actually being another taunt.

Also I believe MVC2 is the game where it actually functions as threatening? Which is a big enough game that I feel he could draw from it? Dunno just trying to work something out if we're going in the other direction, I like Tie Bows as well.

Lopen posted...

I think my biggest irk with that build is the obscene Otoko Michi hype. Not only does the ability for it do way more damage than it ever did in any game (well let's just say most I'm sure there's one out there where it does more than it should), but we go so far as to even ban in the combat write-up. You'd think that was Dan's trademark maneuver from that build when the majority of fighting games he's in don't even have the move.

Pretty much any other Dan ability from any other game is better and more fitting than that one-- and this includes the stupid Archer spoof that wouldn't have the Archer reference making any sense without a lot of digging.

It hits about that hard in MvC2. It's also the ONLY game where it hits that hard, though.
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Yeah I was pretty sure there was one where it was wonky hence parens.

Still though!
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

why's taunt random, that's a shitass nerf
-why's it a BRUTAL TAUNT, what is this, Brutal Doom?
-why does it use new and more awkward wording when the original version was super simple and clean?
-Otoko Michi is worse than Little Girls Tie Bows from M4 (http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/102241603/Dan%20Hibiki). Why was it not reused?

He needed a third upgrade
Yes
I honestly don't remember
Because Dan succumbing to the Satsui no Hado is hilarious. Also, the ability is suppose to reference his confrontation with Sagat.

That's not how the confrontation with Sagat went tho

like

What happens in that fight is Sagat notices Dan is utterly consumed by rage and throws the match, letting him win so he doesn't end up like himself after losing to Ryu

What you want if you want to represent that is that Dan makes an enemy unrosterable/makes them throw so he beats them or something.

(also yeah, make it preselected. Dan doesn't need random nerfs to fit a whackass upgrade scheme. Just make him good out the gate or he won't get bought!)
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Just make the recharge reduction two separate upgrades with different EXP costs. Keeps the every week version staggered while fitting the clean three system.

Dan's upgrade fixed. The upgrade ability itself can be decided later since it's an either/or.

Let's look at Dante: http://mercsce.pbworks.com/w/page/114021640/Dante

I personally think DMC3 Dante is a fine 6/week, but I'm on the low end of Dante respect, but I know I'll get called stupid for saying so because the current playerbase overhypes Dante to the extreme.

If we DO use 7/week mercs, at this point I think I'd like to stick with the idea of having them released on the first day of finals with them having a single ability and no upgrades. I think the first ability listed on that build would be a good one, just scrap the doubling-roster limit thing.

I am very curious if "Dante SOLOS" will be a meme with a fresh player base.
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trdl23 posted...

I am very curious if "Dante SOLOS" will be a meme with a fresh player base.

I seriously doubt it, which is one reason I say DMC3 Dante works fine as a 6/week

I personally think DMC3 Dante is a fine 6/week, but I'm on the low end of Dante respect, but I know I'll get called stupid for saying so because the current playerbase overhypes Dante to the extreme.

DMC 3 Dante can clone himself, stop time, and still has DT access on top of that. It's the dumber of his two 'representative' games by far, not DMC4.

Also, for whatever it's worth, dirty little secret: I think Raiden is probably much better than Dante in practical terms, but what makes Dante so overhyped is the fact people have played his games and he feels like the most overpowered character in fiction off their gameplay. It doesn't really have anything to do with his cutscene showings besides his completely stupid regen, and everything to do with the fact people can create shit like this through his gameplay:

https://youtu.be/EbjPouNBds8?t=25

Look at 0:50. Most games' best cutscenes don't look this good. THIS is why Dante is a 7. The voters know his games and can appreciate just how stupid the gameplay tricks Dante pulls off are. You can't 'fix' Dante respect because it's not based on rationally scrutinized feats, it's based on how hilariously, comically amazing he feels to control.
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You realize we can simply ban quicksilver and doppelganger, right?

Skyridge87 posted...

You realize we can simply ban quicksilver and doppelganger, right?

That still doesn't take away from Dante being a 7/week off gameplay. >_>

It doesn't change anything if you go with DMC3 Dante. He's still ridiculous.
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So we need DmC Dante, got it.

Kamekguy posted...

So we need DmC Dante, got it.

Donte is arguably probably stronger than Dante if you look at cutscene feats. Dante gets staggered by a bullet to the dome - Donte gets blasted by tons of assault rifle fire and doesn't sell in the slightest. Dante takes a full day to just tire out a gigantic colossus, Donte kills it with a Vergil assist, and does so by ripping it apart. Then you have the fact his DT is Quicksilver style except much more long-lasting (there's actually an entire level that takes place within the space of Donte's DT. A full-fledged one, no less), too and...yeah, basically Donte won't achieve the same respect as Dante because his game is so despised, but the feats are there. The gameplay is also pretty different from Dante's so it's hard to contrast them - Donte's specialty is the fact you basically cannot escape him because of his angel chakrams and his physical strength is higher, whereas Dante is probably much more mobile.
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Let's just talk about the other Dante http://mercsce.pbworks.com/w/page/113972671/Dante%20Alighieri

woo

Solid 5/week (MAYBE high 4) imo. Basically a weaker Kratos
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Would increase the recharge of the first ability to once every four weeks. Almost all options result in decreased mobility or objective changing for a target. Basically, all options are good, random post-rosters as the upgrade honestly makes the ability worse as it's better for the ability to fizzle but you put pressure on a specific target that it would hurt regardless (most Metal Gear characters, for instance) than take a chance that it'll get slapped on someone who can tank the options like pain. Upgrade's a pretty simple assist ability, not the biggest fan of those unless they're actual summons, but they're functionally fine.

Does the Astarian Beast really need to qualify as an assist?

When I was making it I was kind of thinking of the Asterian Beast like Kerrigans summons
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So, up the recharge on his first ability?

Ok, it's apparently time to move on.

Before we get to Demoman, who's next on the list, I wanted to go over Zidane: http://mercsce.pbworks.com/w/page/103842633/Zidane%20Tribal

The main reason I wanted more characters to have loadouts is to make abilities like Zidane's more viable, but I've been thinking and there's really no reason why such abilities couldn't be designed differently. In that case, it might be best just to ditch the loadout/customization thing completely.

up?

Loadouts should be limited as they generally limit a character's potential. Zidane seems to be going from the Mercs 3 system where everyone and their mother had a customization for Zidane to snatch from, and even there he was relatively underwhelming. I'd rather throw him in the Knuckles mold of he just snatches anything directly mentioned in the write-up, and if there's a loadout he can choose freely from it. Would also much rather do random selection pre-selected choice or vice-versa. As is he's nearly useless.

I agree with pretty much everything Kamek said.
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Zidane should be preselected target, steal one weapon not banned by the writeup or belonging to a custom. That way he can take like, Dante's Rebellion without having to state that he has it IMO.
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Save
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Any more opinions on the no loadout thing? I actually kinda want to go back and look through the builds and see how they would work with that stuff added to the writeup.

Loadouts are good if they're used where they're meaningful

'let's randomly strip away buffz/combat ability from a mage' is not that

A good example of a good custom is the armors on MMX in M4. They do different things and it's not like one's just flat better than the others.
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Yeah, but how many situations are there like X?

Skyridge87 posted...

Yeah, but how many situations are there like X?

Just going week by week here:

-Shep
-DK
-Kirby
-Megaman
-Samus
-Magus
-Rin
-Sam Fisher
-Shirou (if shirou actually mattered LOL)
-Edgar
-Isaac
-Yuna
-Rikku

That's from the first ten weeks. Not a bad set tbqh.
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How many times did the specific equipment Sam took actually mattered though? Same for Magus' barrier. And Yuna's was more of an ability than anything.

Like, what's wrong with just incorporating the choices into the writeups?

How many times did the specific equipment Sam took actually mattered though? Same for Magus' barrier. And Yuna's was more of an ability than anything

In Sam's case, a couple time with tranqs early on, as well as mines. Later on never but that had everything to do with FFD playing the no-fight game. Magus was in a similar boat with boko never fighting.
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I view Loadouts the same way I view Character Upgrades: they should provide the character a utility that they wouldn't otherwise have or be intrinsically built into their character (which is mostly the case for people with summons or people who would bring in assists or multi-forms). For instance, a custom should never include primary weapons, but could include something like support materia, something that would provide benefits on a specific kind of terrain (a scuba mask/tank versus the holoduke in the case of Duke Nukem, for instance) or a selection of "big weapons". For instance, I like to think that a choice between a sniper rifle and a grenade launcher for a 3/week is "fine" if they'd otherwise be at the 3/week level, as both are devoted to specific strategies and allows the merc to succeed in a specific role. I am less okay with "here is a giant list of weapons, you pick three".

I think that Loadouts should not be universal and that abilities interacting specifically with them would be pretty useless in most cases. I think they're just necessary for when one option is not always superior to another in a way that isn't pedantic from a non-gameplay perspective.

I think I am gonna go through all available builds at some point and see if I can incorporate loadouts into writeups/character upgrades.

Anyway, let's talk about Demoman: http://mercsce.pbworks.com/w/page/111970057/Demoman

anyone?

up

I'm not sure how useful having that loadout is. I don't foresee many Demoknights being used in Mercs when you could have air stickies.
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trdl23 posted...

I'm not sure how useful having that loadout is. I don't foresee many Demoknights being used in Mercs when you could have air stickies.

This is exactly the reason I brought up Zidane and Loadouts when I did.

Yeah, I think just give him a normal set of equipment even if it's technically more than he can use in-game.
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trdl23 posted...

Yeah, I think just give him a normal set of equipment even if it's technically more than he can use in-game.

Hasn't stopped a lot of other builds.

Can I have a link to the last mercs game plz
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Corrik posted...

Can I have a link to the last mercs game plz

You mean the wiki?

http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/90630290/FrontPage
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Ty
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I just put it there as Demoman doesn't have the option to carry more than a single weapon of each in-game, so I found it disingenuous to the character to allow the model to have more. Demoknight options were made to combo with the Half-Zotoshi ability and not much more, basically. Or in weird situations, like basketball.