Board 8 > The Mercenaries CE build review topic part 2

(+) Yeah! (+)

I actually am not so sure because like...big dragons are standard JRPG fodder. Sure you're gonna need some help to down it but it's not worth 100 XP or whatever. This is the kinda thing I would assign a 30-40 XP tag at most. Still a lot, but not in that '80 XP or bust' tier like Megaman's full upgrade set.
---

I would never call a dragon "fodder", and I mean if it were Bronze Dragon Chromie Vs a full team, sure, but a magic-immune giant dragon that eats people and breathes super fire is worth a lot more to me, especially in the low field where durability is (and will pretty much always be) a huge issue and a premium. Like even in WC3, dragons ain't to be fucked with and require a rather large and fully upgraded cavalry to take down, or otherwise some sort of superbuff to your hero - it's not like Paladin Arthas/Uther the Lightbringer can take one down on his own.

I'm actually not sure about that - I'd have to look but I think a rangey hero who actually DPSes, like Priestess of the Moon, can dunk one.

That said, I do agree that it shouldn't be a cheap upgrade regardless. 30-40-50 seems about right, especially if Chromie doesn't rise in upkeep or slot costs.
---

Figure that 40-45 sounds good. And no fair bringing WC3 Night Elves into the equation, they dunk everything.

http://mercsce.pbworks.com/w/page/111868363/Charizard

Edited Charizard to the more supported ability. Killing me not to include "this ability cannot be used if Charizard is asleep, confused, or paralyzed", but I just know that'd be abused.

Went ahead and changed Charizard's writeup/character upgrade, if nothing else than to be in line with the other Pokemon. Also Chromie appears to be done?

Time for Cloud http://mercsce.pbworks.com/w/page/103710261/Cloud%20Strife%20(incomplete)

I'd really like for his first ability to be something related to the FF7 remake. I just can't think of anything.

Don't try to make abilities off shit that hasn't even released

Don't give out dumb customs when just giving Cloud a good materia set is better

Give him an ability based on honey bee inn, the date or 'let's mosey', call it a day

Peace
---

(On phone so if I sound snippy it's just because writing long is agony, sry)
---

The ability is supposed to be based around the CONCEPT of the remake, not content from the remake.

Oh, that's pretty cool then.

Make it a one-shot: Order a remake of one of your mercs like how unbought / losing mercs get remade. If that's too much, make it so you can order a remake from the unbought pool.
---

Skyridge87 posted...

The ability is supposed to be based around the CONCEPT of the remake, not content from the remake.

Why Cloud and not someone for whom a remake actually matters

This is an automeme ability concept and I oppose it because it's more about what's relevant to Genesis Skyridge than what's unique and meaningful about Cloud
---

Whoa, Kanz, chill the hell out.

Cloud is probably the wrong person for this ability, sure. (It's probably best on a resident evil character given how good the REmake was.) But have some damn restraint, dude.
---

Like if you want to do this gimmick use Barry Burton or Chris Redfield and do something that riffs on REmake

That's a much better thing to do this gimmick with because REmake is already out and famously overwhelmingly superior to the original, so you can actually work with that

Or a Lunar character, with that series' endless rehashes
---

trdl23 posted...

Whoa, Kanz, chill the hell out.

Cloud is probably the wrong person for this ability, sure. (It's probably best on a resident evil character given how good the REmake was.) But have some damn restraint, dude.

I'm on phone, I am chill, just necessarily curt due to having to write telegram style

Lolin @ how we thought the same thing tho - this really is am ability to give to Barry or Chris as an upgrade. It just fits like a glove
---

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Why Cloud and not someone for whom a remake actually matters

It's not like the possibility of a Final Fantasy 7 remake was frothed about for nearly 10 years since that PS3 tech demo or anything.

Cloud already has a lot of material to draw abilities from, though. RE seems like the best fit for this idea since it gives Chris a compelling reason not to be Generic McGunner.
---

If someone is able to make a compelling ability for Cloud, be my guest, but he's never really had an outstanding one that I remember.

Skyridge87 posted...

If someone is able to make a compelling ability for Cloud, be my guest, but he's never really had an outstanding one that I remember.

The ones he had in M3 and M4 were both pretty great. Either pair of abilities is decent for a base. Living Legacy works as the upgrade nicely, too.
---

Cloud's all about remakes. It's his whole SOLDIER persona after all!
---

We already hit that with Living Legacy though >_>

That's another reason I'm not very high on 'lol remake ability' - Living Legacy touches on a very similar thing in a far more interesting and sincere fashion. It's a statement nobody else in Mercs can make but Cloud.
---

listen, i think we can all agree that cloud should have his wheelchair ability re-instated

see: my sig ft. the venerable tom bombadil
---

also if you're set on a 'remake' styled thing

Remake (Peacetime - Limited Use 1) - an allied mercenary may be refunded (full GP spent, upkeep charged, and exp invested) in full and be released in the in immediate next peacetime with a remade build. This ability may not be used in the playoffs, and if unused [should this be a bought upgrade] the exp will be refunded in Results.
---

up?

Let's come back to Cloud later. Time for Cole

http://mercsce.pbworks.com/w/page/113397460/Cole%20MacGrath

I remember there being a lot of discussion of this guy in the other topic.

one of the big issues people had with Cole was not liking the ...Women ability. I spitballed like 2-3 more after that and nobody was particularly a fan (I know one was a save/kill 1v5 ability based on the first game, and one was based on an ability from the original incarnation).

So I never found a suitable replacement ability (though I don't necessarily dislike the ...Women ability anyway).

I think other than that he's good.
---

I feel like Cole's base ability should be something that's more lightly differentiated by karma - save the big karmic shift for the upgrade IMO. Like IDK, what is the difference between Good Karma lightning and Bad Karma lightning in his games?
---

KanzarisKelshen posted...

I feel like Cole's base ability should be something that's more lightly differentiated by karma - save the big karmic shift for the upgrade IMO. Like IDK, what is the difference between Good Karma lightning and Bad Karma lightning in his games?

...Well good karma Cole has ice powers and bad karma has napalm manipulation,
---

Johnbobb posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

I feel like Cole's base ability should be something that's more lightly differentiated by karma - save the big karmic shift for the upgrade IMO. Like IDK, what is the difference between Good Karma lightning and Bad Karma lightning in his games?

...Well good karma Cole has ice powers and bad karma has napalm manipulation,

That seems like an obvious power to use then - every 3 weeks freeze a dude for X duration for Good Cole, every 4 weeks set dude on fire for Evil Cole. Ability upgrade extends freeze duration and reduces napalm CD by one and lets him set more dudes on fire for extra days of recharge
---

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Johnbobb posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

I feel like Cole's base ability should be something that's more lightly differentiated by karma - save the big karmic shift for the upgrade IMO. Like IDK, what is the difference between Good Karma lightning and Bad Karma lightning in his games?

...Well good karma Cole has ice powers and bad karma has napalm manipulation,

That seems like an obvious power to use then - every 3 weeks freeze a dude for X duration for Good Cole, every 4 weeks set dude on fire for Evil Cole. Ability upgrade extends freeze duration and reduces napalm CD by one and lets him set more dudes on fire for extra days of recharge

Yeah but that just strikes me as a ripoff of various other abilities (like Sub-Zero's freeze and various "set on fires")
---

I mean, if not that, what would you suggest? Heroic sacrifice ability for Good Cole to depower Otherworldlies/Superhumans vs Seize Power ability for Evil Cole to screw over Humans and make them die in droves?
---

Perhaps something that's less "pick your morality" and more "make a choice and go with it". i.e. having an ability that does one thing or another, choosing one option locks you out of the other and gives you a different upgrade path, potentially with an EXP cost to change it mid-stream? All I remember of inFamous are Zeke, the vampire DLC, and hilarious morality moments like "I could get slimed with sewer water that kills normal people but is mildly inconvenient to me... or I could force someone else to do it and laugh at them".

Cloud is the essence of "you're remaking something that doesn't need a remake" that's going on a bit too often for my tastes imo. I mean the remake isn't bad I guess (aside from splitting AC off in the character upgrade and the dumb materia custom-- Mercs 4 should've been enough of a hint that that's a bad idea on the AC thing) but it's arguably a decrease in quality from the final M4 Cloud build and frankly the ability copying thing can go with a lot of characters who have less things to make abilities from and fit as well or better, so why waste it on a guy who it's not particularly iconic for who has a ton of iconic ability fodder to use if you want.

I mean I get it if you're running a game for people you want to make some builds cause that's a big part of the fun of hosting for you-- I just feel like there are more than enough builds that are actually bad to remake that you can focus your energy there first.
---

I've said this before, but half the reason a lot of builds are getting remade is because I want them to be less complicated, have only two abilities, etc. This isn't another game for us, it's a game for new players.

You say that but half of your remakes have been more complicated not less <_< (Bowser jumps out immediately)
---

^^^^

Celestia and Chromie aren't what I'd call super simple builds, considering one has complicated enough probability that I couldn't grasp it at first glance (and I have like, a specialty in probability games), and Chromie requires players to git really gud at managing XP. The less said about bowser party the better. I feel like assuming players are too stupid to grasp M4 is a mistake. Anybody who can't grasp that game is just not gonna care about mercs enough to be a leader in the first place. This simplification doesn't fix the actual issues Mercs has (brutally unforgiving advantage to teams that win the first few matches, hardcore learning curve for rookies who don't understand you're basically thinking like a politician if you want to win, incredibly punishing effects on morale from arguing on losses...), it just attacks superficial complexities that no persistent leaders had much trouble grasping.
---

(this isn't to say Celes and Chromie aren't great Kamek, they are. I'm just pointing out this game is kinda limiting itself needlessly for the wrong reasons, IMO)
---

KanzarisKelshen posted...

considering one has complicated enough probability that I couldn't grasp it at first glance

My understanding was that you simply forgot decks of cards have 4 suits.

There's also the issue of you guys constantly saying the new ideas are bad. It's one thing to offer constructive criticism and help fix what's presented, but when you say "it sucks go back to the old stuff" simply because "it didn't need to be changed", then I feel you're missing the point of this topic.

What is the point of the topic then? Introducing change for the sake of change? We have no obligation to accept a fix that solves a nonexistent problem, and we have offered plenty of constructive criticism when the new idea was better than what was there before. It's not like we're just negative nancies, we just don't feel like taking a worse-quality product when we can create something better instead.
---

What is the point of the topic?

Like I don't see how "perhaps you should focus efforts on things that actually need fixing a lot more" isn't constructive criticism. You're wasting a lot of energy on builds that were already fairly decent and doing laterals (at best) for a lot of them. Heck I even played ball and have offered better alternatives to what you were doing with Bowser (make the ability more consistent) and Cloud (change the combat write-up) despite disagreeing they needed to be changed at all and thinking the new build is overall worse (even with my suggestions).

What you're doing here is like if I have a car with a big dent in the hood, come to get it fixed, and you're talking about changing the style of the hubcaps or changing it to a slightly different shade of green.
---

Like uh, an example of what I'm talking about exists in Mercenaries 4 in Sephiroth.

You'll note that the second build, the one that people actually liked, was actually closer to the Mercenaries 3 build than it was to the Mercenaries 4 one that was created from scratch. Mercenaries 3 Seph wasn't actually the worst build when you think about it.

Like sometimes the best solution is "this new idea you had was so far off the mark that we should go back to an earlier idea as the start point and work from there, because that one had a lot better foundation to it." Like if we ran with the premise "Longer is Better is a good ability" entirely because it was suggested and new, and tried to fix it rather than just scrapping it, we wouldn't have had a good remake there.
---

Incidentally, I'm still sad we lost the Jenova Clones ability - it was wayyyy out there because there's like no situation where 'three sephs with 1/3 HP' isn't better than a single tanky one, but as a concept it was p cool.
---

thing is i think that too much QC is probably just bad

like too many cooks, basically

there were plenty of clunker m4 builds. but at least there's diversity. not every build needs to be great and super functional.
---

Just because old ideas worked fine doesn't mean we shouldn't be allowed to have new ones. Yeah, not all of them are good, but I at least want to throw the rough drafts out there.

The reason I changed Bowser is because Bowser Shell is a one-off item from a single game that, from what I've seen, has not done much. Even when I had it in M3 and unleashed it in Spekkio's Arena, it wasn't often argued to be very effective. Bowser Party is much more interesting, and now that it's been edited to be more consistent and viable, I think it could be a lot of fun.

As for Cloud, there are several reasons why I want to leave Advent Children as an upgrade. 1) It gives him a valuable character upgrade 2) I want to keep characters on release as close to their video game incarnations and leave non-video game stuff (when applicable) to character upgrades on principle, and 3) Just because M4 didn't seem to care about Cloud until the AC upgrade doesn't mean a new player base will see have the same opinions.

The reason I changed Bowser is because Bowser Shell is a one-off item from a single game that, from what I've seen, has not done much. Even when I had it in M3 and unleashed it in Spekkio's Arena, it wasn't often argued to be very effective

It solo'd Mewtwo's team

It literally drove JC's purchase of Crono alongside Epoch by proving how brutal spekkioland could be

in what world was it not effective

What was ineffective was the furrybait backup like Fox and Spyro, not the shell
---

Also, and this is worth stating very strongly

Do not lock basic functionality behind a character upgrade.

This happened to a few builds in M4 and it was shit every single time. Cloud was one, Y'shtola was another. Don't do it. Lock something like 'gets quadra magic' or 'gets command materia' behind the char upgrade. Not what makes the character tick in the eyes of the voters, because it only acts as a bad newbie trap.
---

Feh, I think it's best not to dwell at the moment, especially since Bowser's got more than enough discussion. I do like Bowser Party more than Bowser Shell just because I feel it's more emblematic of Bowser's personality as "a huge asshole", and that "throw something big at someone else" can go to somebody else just fine without ruining Bowser's viability.

I do think, for instance, that Cloud should not have Remake because Barret is a better candidate for it in the same damn game (hell the guy's been redesigned like three times) and Cloud has better ability possibilities with motorcycles, crossdressing, SOLDIER shit, his CC appearance where he has a gun, etc.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. You're implying that Cloud is complete dead weight without the AC stuff, which is just not true. The Mercs playerbase just has that stupid perception for some reason.

Cloud was a newbie trap because his initial build was horrible, not because he had a character upgrade that was worthwhile.

Skyridge87 posted...

That's exactly what I'm talking about. You're implying that Cloud is complete dead weight without the AC stuff, which is just not true. The Mercs playerbase just has that stupid perception for some reason.

Cloud was a newbie trap because his initial build was horrible, not because he had a character upgrade that was worthwhile.

No, Cloud was bad because he was not worth his upkeep. Hold a vote and ask anybody if Cloud's a 5/week without Advent Children. Nobody will tell you that's the case unless you give him like, Knights of the Round. It's very simple and true that Cloud's a 4/week without his movie because he has no awesome showings. Adjusting upkeep for a char upgrade is a pain in the ass, so you may as well dispense with that nonsense and give Cloud his good shit from the get-go.
---

greengravy294 posted...

thing is i think that too much QC is probably just bad

like too many cooks, basically

there were plenty of clunker m4 builds. but at least there's diversity. not every build needs to be great and super functional.

Well, I'm not saying every build needs to be 'great' but I do feel it's a problem if something is 'fixed' to be worse. Stuff that was generally thought to be good as is should be approached very carefully. Not only does it stand a significant chance of being wasted effort but it also stands a chance of being effort that is actively undermining the game.

That being said I disagree with the idea that QC is bad-- compare the first 10 weeks of m4 to the rest of the game and say with a straight face you'd rather have the first 10 weeks.
---

Also the issue is more that character upgrades that could be argued to be so drastic as to change the character's upkeep should be avoided. Most people see vanilla Cloud as a 4 and AC Cloud as a 5. It's not so much the idea that Cloud is being disrespected without AC as much as just watching what he does in AC vs FFVII. Like Cloud gets healthy respect without it but it's a pretty big different.

Like pricing Cloud at 7/week and giving him Knights of the Round linked to Final Attack behind a character upgrade would be a more egregious version of what I'm saying here.
---

I feel like there is room to experiment with character upgrades like that. Ones that are so drastic a change that an increase in upkeep comes with it, and it is up to the player to decide if they want to take that or not.
---