1) The outcome is not random. The victor, if there is such a thing, is meaningfully and meritoriously decided. Examples of this quality are chess, checkers, and go.
2) All players are engaged simultaneously, without the need to wait for someone to finish their turn. Examples include hungry hungry hippos, and apples to apples (to a lesser extent).
3) The game can be scaled up to large numbers of players. Examples include dominion, and a card game that my eight grade math teacher taught us that no one else has ever heard of.
4) Games are not required to be of epic length. Risk, for example, would be excluded by this criteria.
I'm asking because I have a group of friends that insist on playing board games, and I'm curious if there's one we could play that I might actually like.
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"What if you just eat vegetarians?"-neonreaper "^ You are what you eat. ^_~"-Koiji
Settlers of Cataan meets all qualities but three, and the third criteria can be met if you feel like picking up some expansions.
Some components of the game are random (resource collection is a function of shared dice rolls), but most of the game takes place with inter-player diplomacy; trading and deal-making.
-- This isn't 1950. Girls develop way later than they used to because human lifespans have increased - Lavos_Fanboy
I'm not sure how you decided Settlers of Catan meets three of his four requirements, given that it doesn't meet any of them. Randomness is heavy, games are long, there are turns, and the game can be scaled up but it's difficult.
Those are some awfully rare criteria. And by #1 you're already throwing away all the ones that would be good for casual play, so I advise you chill out and relax those rules. You might get a game you like, somehow, but no one else will.
I don't know why you chose Risk as an example anyway since it's mostly determined by luck.
From: Paratroopa1 | #006 I'm not sure how you decided Settlers of Catan meets three of his four requirements, given that it doesn't meet any of them. Randomness is heavy, games are long, there are turns, and the game can be scaled up but it's difficult.
Having turns shouldn't be a deal-breaker. After all, it's a game of diplomacy, right? So there's always something to do even outside your turn. Truthfully, that condition is meaningless anyway.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick
Wow guys, no. Based on his criteria Settlers of Catan is exactly the type of game he'd hate.
Sceptilesolarbeam | Posted 12/26/2011 8:15:50 PM | message detail | quote I don't know why you chose Risk as an example anyway since it's mostly determined by luck.
He chose Risk as an example of a game that doesn't meet one of his criteria. Risk is probably one of his least favorite games if these are the things he's looking for.
Other things you may want to consider are Wrestlemania, Hide-and-Go-Seek, Tag, and some game my friend taught me called Foot Tag which I can explain in depth if needed (it's fun).
I don't think it's odd that all of these suggestions require athleticism.
-- "Filthy lawbreaker, unhand that vending machine!" - Casey Jones
Sceptilesolarbeam | Posted 12/26/2011 8:17:18 PM | message detail | quote | (edited) Having turns shouldn't be a deal-breaker. After all, it's a game of diplomacy, right? So there's always something to do even outside your turn. Truthfully, that condition is meaningless anyway.
Catan, in practice, does not wind up being very diplomacy-heavy, but there is a lot of waiting for people to decide what to do.
yeah, I've played settlers of catan before. It's delightful, once a month or so, but these people want to play more often that that.
I've had Dominion games of at least 8 people, mostly because my friends all own a copy of the game. They stack their cards together, and games take a very long time.
I've heard a lot about Diplomacy, and I'll look into it.
Scattergories looks like some sort of pictionary type game. I'll look into it too, though it may be a hard sell.
Thank you all for your suggestions.
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"What if you just eat vegetarians?"-neonreaper "^ You are what you eat. ^_~"-Koiji
There is certainly a factor of randomness (it's a card game, after all), but that is mitigated well enough by the bluffing aspect of the game. Turns are generally short and are not determined by where you are sitting; they are determined by what card you choose at the beginning of each round.
-- "Filthy lawbreaker, unhand that vending machine!" - Casey Jones
Scattergories does meet all of the criteria. It's not a drawing game, it's a word game. You have to think of things starting with a given letter that match a category. It's a solid party game.
I do actually know of an actual board game that meets all four criteria, but it's a game that one of my professors made so only one copy of it exists to date. It might be available for sale one day and then I'll whore the hell out of it because it's pretty damn good.
It is basically risk if everyone's turn happened at the same time.
You can play realtime or multiday. Basically a fast game where a turn is around 5 minutes, or where you play a couple turns a day. I think this meets all your criteria. Though, with regard to scaling, you can only have up to 6 player games without a membership.
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There is no shame in not knowing; the shame lies in not finding out
I realize this is asking quite a bit, as far as board games go. I normally just tell people that I don't like playing board games, but that kind of makes you the sourpuss of the group. So, to be sociable, I grin and bear it. I just thought I'd ask if there was anything that met my unreasonable standards.
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"What if you just eat vegetarians?"-neonreaper "^ You are what you eat. ^_~"-Koiji
... If you want to play board games with your friends regularly, then why not just play an assortment of different ones? I mean, you found a flawed game (Settlers of Catan) fun once in a while, don't you? So just get a bunch of flawed games.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick
Settlers of Catan has the huge problem of the game place slowing down to practically nothing in the late game. Also, getting resources still depends on dice.
Dominion Apples to Apples Settlers Some weird kind of mahjong known exclusively to my friend's family Scrabble card games, such as: Poker, golf, and hearts They are also fond of mafia.
I am particularly fond of hearts. I am particularly adverse to the mahjong variant (you have absolutely zero control over the output of the game. It is effectively a glorified coin toss).
I'll look forward to your professor's game, para.
WarLight looks like an interesting take on risk, but this particular group of friends plays board games specifically because they think being in front of a computer is unsocial.
I would probably like something more competitive, Kim.
I'll look into Citadels more.
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"What if you just eat vegetarians?"-neonreaper "^ You are what you eat. ^_~"-Koiji
Some weird kind of mahjong known exclusively to my friend's family
What kind of mahjong is that? The real kind, or the not-actually-mahjong kind?
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick
I dunno if this really meets your requirements, but I love Capitalism as a card game.
You can play with 4 players up to like 10 (though factors of 52 are the best for evenness). The cards are dealt randomly, but the winner is always unpredictable. There are so many ways to strategically skip turns and manipulate the flow of the game that even with a great hand, you can lose.
In that sense, the game is kinda random. You can't expect to win all the time, even if you technically played the best. But the way my friends played, we skipped the card trading part, completing 1 game in about 2-3 minutes at most, we would play so many rounds that the result of any one individual round wasn't important.
Still, I like it because it's super fast, super intense, involves all players, easy to hop in and out of the game without waiting or ruining anything.
The problem with crazy trades are when people wont end their turn even when no ones taking their trades.
had a friend who studies accounting or business or something and his trades are always "If you want 2 wheat, I will trade them for 2 sheep the next two turns or 1 sheep with interest compounded for every turn that passes" or something like that
hes no longer allowed to play with us
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Citadels takes forever when players are new. I've had a game of 8 players go for over two hours since some of the players were new. Really painful game. It also doesn't fit Rule 2 at all. I'd suggest against it.
Shadow Hunters has been a hit with every group I've played it with. It's best with 6-8 players. Basically it's a mafia-esque game where each player has a secret identity and they work to try to figure out who is on their team and who is against them, then kill the opposition. Games go pretty quickly once the (simple) rules are learned (once your players are experienced games will probably take 30-45 minutes at the most). Since you're trying to deduce information from other player's actions, you want to pay attention as other people are taking turns. The game does have a lot of luck (roll the dice to make attacks), so it doesn't fit your first rule, but I think it's a decent fit.
... actually, I just realized Pit is probably perfect for you. In Pit there are 9 of each commodity card, and you have one commodity for each player. Everyone gets dealt a hand of 9 cards. Your goal is to get all 9 of one commodity. You do this by trading in real time -- you say how many cards you want to trade (you can only trade one commodity at a time, so if you want to trade 3 cards they all must be Corn, for example), and when you find a trade you swap cards. This continues until someone gets 9 at which they win the round and score points. There are two cards, the Bull and the Bear. The Bull is essentially a Wild card, while the Bear prevents you from winning if it is in your hand. You get penalties if you lose the hand with these cards.
Everyone is active at once. There IS skill involved -- the same players always do well in my group of friends. The game length is adjustable since you can just pick how many points you're playing to, and the game only gets better with more people (generally at least 4 are needed).
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No amount of planning will ever replace dumb luck.
Though for #1: You say you like Hearts, which does have some luck. I take it you're fine with a luck element as long as good players will generally beat worse players? I love board games and am trying to find others that you'll enjoy, but I'm wondering how much luck you're fine with.
And an Edit: My question to you guys, what video game board games do you guys like? I'm talking about games sorta like Mario Party and/or Itadaki Street. Culdcept was really cool, except the AI cheats out the wazoo. I have Delve Deeper on Steam, and it's okay... but nothing great. Curious if there are any hidden gems I'm missing out on.
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No amount of planning will ever replace dumb luck.
oh my god foolmo, that game is exactly the game my math teacher taught us in 8th grade. We called it hierarchy, but I'll be damned if it isn't my favorite card game. I could play that game for hours.
I showed it to my friends, and they don't like it.
Ness, shadow hunters sounds like a game we have played....some sort of card game with a wild west theme? One person was the sheriff, and there were outlaws and renegades. Hmm.
Pit not only sounds interesting, but it also sounds like something I could try out while being a complete cheap-ass. I'll look into it.
As far as luck goes, I think I prefer games where your actions are the most important part of your results. There are some games where I just want to write a simple program to make my actions for me, because the choices are so limited, and then my friends could play with the robot instead of me <_<
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"What if you just eat vegetarians?"-neonreaper "^ You are what you eat. ^_~"-Koiji
Gwindor posted... Ness, shadow hunters sounds like a game we have played....some sort of card game with a wild west theme? One person was the sheriff, and there were outlaws and renegades. Hmm.
You're thinking of Bang!, a personal favourite of mine, but doesn't fit any of the criteria you listed.
-- "In the game of chess you can never let your opponent see your pieces."
Cutthroat Caverns is really sweet. The only luck involved is in the draw of the cards and you can discard in between turns. That, and the monsters you get are random so if you get a really hard one late game it can be pretty bad. But the rounds are quick and there's always something for each player to do. It takes a lot of teamwork and then subsequent backstabbing but it's really fun. I guess the only real drawback is it's only for up to 6 players.
Settlers of Catan is also a great fit. The "luck" if there is any is minor.
Ehhh.... luck in Settlers is a mixed bag. Games go long enough that everyone gets their numbers rolled, though you will have those games where 5 is the number to have and 6 is never rolled and all. It's a rare game that you just get completely f***ed the whole game enough to have no chance without the aid of players putting robbers on your land. Most of the skill really is in politics/mind games though. If you show your hand too quickly or get out to a huge, early lead, or just generally piss people off, you will get f***ed. But luck still often rules. While yes, a good player is going to win more than a crappy player, I have experienced so many games which literally came down to a single roll; if the roller got the right number they won, if not the next player won.
Spades is my favorite trick-taking card game -- you'd probably enjoy it if you like Hearts.
I prefer Shadow Hunters over Bang! since it has a mechanic to identify other players (unlike Bang!) and it moves a hell of a lot faster as a consequence. If you're not up for it though, that's fine.
Surprised you haven't met more people that have played that game you mention being taught by your teacher. It's known by a ton of different names -- I've met people who call it King-Peasant, President, The Bum Game... it goes on. It's a reasonably common game, though everyone has their own rule variants.
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No amount of planning will ever replace dumb luck.
Almost sounds like a TCG could work, but Magic is the only one I know of that can be played with more than two and has enough to do on other people's turns to keep you engaged.
I also kinda want to suggest Transformice even though it's not a board game at all and you specifically excluded computers. >_>
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