Board 8 > Iceman Ranks Every Tales Series Party Member w/Writeups & Prediction Prizes

(+) Yeah! (+)

xp1337 posted...

NBIceman posted...
but you cant have a disconnect between the player and protagonist like that.
On a more serious level I kinda disagree here. You can go very wrong doing this depending on how you play it, but I don't really have an issue detaching myself from the "Obviously Lloyd isn't burning down cities" knowledge I have as a player and rolling with Emil's understandable misunderstanding. If anything, done well, it can be an interesting dynamic. I mean, I think it's clear you don't think it was done well but the impression I'm getting is you don't think it can work at all period!

To add onto this, I think if executed better, it's very possible to tell this kind of story. Two years can be enough time for something to theoretically happen to Lloyd that would cause his beliefs/idealism to change or be jaded. It's one of the reasons why the Injustice universe works so well--we know Superman is supposed to be the embodiment of the good in humanity, but even he isn't totally unchangeable.

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I haven't played Symphonia 2, but I think its more that you can tell a story where there is a disconnect between protagonist and player.

The main intrigue could be in knowing the protagonist is wrong and anticipating the moment his or her beliefs are shattered or changed.

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A lack of clarification in my writeup, for sure. I don't think it's an impossible story in a vacuum, but I also don't think it was necessarily a problem of execution in this setting. Because the returning Symphonia characters had to be integrated into the story as party members (or else the cash grab nature of the game wouldn't work, see), most of them had to be written to be one of two things: either way too willing to believe that Lloyd was now a psychopath or a noncommittal fence-sitter who claims, by some avenue or the other, to believe in both Emil and Lloyd. Both of those are stupid at best and outright character assassination at worst. And it gets even worse when, late in the game, you get to pick one of these folks as being Lloyd's travel companion for the gap of time between Symphonia 1 and 2, because that person should have even less reason to entertain Emil's whiny bullcrap than they already do, which potentially just makes their earlier behavior make somehow even less sense.

Again, some of the specifics here get covered in future Symphonia writeups, but the basic point is that even with better writing or what have you, Emil's story of vengeance requires way too many gymnastic performances with other characters to make him work as a sequel protagonist unless you were willing to completely ignore the first game's characters until way later on.

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Anyway, enough about that, let's have another.

#89 - Bruiser Khang (Destiny)
Heres a word of advice, bubba. Have a clear goal in life, or youre gonna die!

The first and probably most extreme victim of the Destiny remakes not making their way stateside. Ive had folks tell me that he actually becomes a pretty likable and well-realized character in the PS2 versions, but in the original edition he brings very little to the table.

Khang occupies a weird sort of limbo where he has a brief, albeit fairly memorable, appearance in the main story, but is completely optional to recruit as a party member. So, like Suzu, even when you do bring him along for the ride, he sort of just sits around in the background of scenes doing and saying nothing. On the rare occasion he does get lines, they can be a little humorous, but more often theyre just offensive comments about women. And thats yeah, not exactly endearing, especially in this day and age.

Gameplay-wise, hes actually pretty solid. Good damage output and, like the other non-Swordian users, he has some utility against the late-game Impulse enemies. I do quite like his design as well. I may not care for his personality but the visuals suit it, and its nice to have an unarmed fighter that actually looks physically imposing. It would be even better if Destinys art style wasnt such that it doesnt allow him to stand out more in combat.

TL;DR: Its too bad there isnt more to him, because he brings some uniqueness as a Dumb Muscle character that isnt used very often in Tales, especially on the hero side of things, and the novelty of being the first fistfighter in the series is cool. But since all his development was Japan-only, were just left with an unintelligent, sexist moron with an overinflated ego that just feels pretty unlikable, not to mention pointless.

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No thoughts on Bruiser? I don't blame you, it was hard for me to come up with thoughts on Bruiser. How about a more controversial one, then? So famous among series fans that I'm not even gonna bother with the spoiler tags for him.

#88 - Leon Magnus (Destiny)
"You should be thankful that you have the opportunity to say these inane words while things are peaceful."

Leon sucks. I know hes developed a hell of a lot more in the remakes, I know hes crazy popular in the character polls that hes been retired, I know the fangirls love him to death, but as far as us Westerners can be concerned, Leon sucks.

Hes got a cool factor to him, Ill give him that, but its a pretty generic anime teenage swordsman sort of coolness. Dark and wavy hair, a cape, flashy moves, edgy loner attitude, using a more badass name in place of his real one, tragic backstory He checks all the boxes. Its just not compelling.

I dont necessarily hold the betrayal against him. The circumstances around it are certainly sympathetic and I get that hes had a crappy life. But the fact is that he spends the vast majority of his time with the party activating their shock collars for relatively minor infractions and just being a dick in general. He doesnt really develop outside of the brief scenes with Marian. He dies, so he doesnt get a redemption arc (maybe that comes as Judas, I dont know). He doesnt get fleshed out nearly enough to be a well-executed character, and certainly not a likable one. His betrayal doesnt really lead to any lasting consequences for the rest of the party, the whole twist of him being Rutees brother feels completely pointless, and his death being treated as some great tragedy does not feel like an earned reaction. The game tries to pull hints of the idea that he actually does like and trust the party to some degree, but as with Jay, it comes off as hollow lip service, especially considering he makes no effort to enlist their help in saving Marian and averting all his problems.

TL;DR: Dudes just an asshole. Im sure hed end up much higher if the remakes could be considered, but as it is, I was more glad than anything else when he died. Its kind of cool that he was the first traitor in the series, a time-honored tradition in the years since, but novelty alone aint gonna raise him up that much.

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One more for the night as we eliminate our first main protagonist.

#87 - Sorey (Zestiria)
"Is that a monolith?"

One of my professors in college with whom I became fairly well-acquainted during my time there was a part-timer who made his primary living writing fiction. Mostly short stories, but hes found some success with longer-form novels and the like as well. Since I write as a hobby myself sometimes when the mood strikes me, Id solicit his advice on a semi-frequent basis, and the tip he gave me that I most remember was that, unless it was a conscious decision made for a very specific purpose, a writer should never make the mistake of allowing a main protagonists dominant function to be that of a spectator.

Sorey stands at a miserable crossroads. He is simultaneously the lead with the least amount of agency in the series and its most clear example of the tired Chosen One class of protagonist. Things happen to him as he moves from place to place on a quest to explore the ruins of the world. These ruins are as dull as they come. Why should any of us give the slightest damn about his precious ruins? As best we can tell, theyre all a bunch of labyrinthine collections of hallways painted slightly different colors that dont really contain anything of particular interest. I dont want to "explore" them. So getting me to enjoy a game where thats all the main character ever talks about or wants to do is a tough sell even if that was the only issue.

And the Shepherd's journey itself, ostensibly one about self-discovery as much as any sort of grand savior duty, instead tends to follow one particular pattern. Sorey happens upon a problem. He devises a solution. The other party members dissuade him from said solution, citing whatever arbitrary reason is most applicable at the time. Sorey defers to their judgment and does what they recommend. Rinse and repeat. Does this sound like an interesting protagonist yet?

That lack of agency really handicaps his development, because even though hes technically the one making a lot of things happen in the story, he still feels like a bystander. His only big decisions as the Shepherd come at the very end of the game: killing Heldalf, which is treated as momentous and revolutionary even though the party has been killing people with some regularity by that point, and merging with Maotelus, which comes completely out of nowhere and thus ends up seeming more like an excuse to have the bittersweet ending that recent Tales games love than anything. I understand the latter is meant to play off the whole Messianistic allusion that the Shepherd is, but the lack of buildup makes it feel overly convenient and flat-out dumb.

He doesnt even make up for any of it with any pure entertainment value. He doesnt bring humor or fun combat or good visual design. The best thing I can say about him is that hes not actively unlikeable and, well, you can see how that wouldnt get him very far.

TL;DR: Sorey is as drab as the Zestiria ruins. He feels like a supporting character in his own game thats constantly annoying the party with his archaeology obsession without really contributing very much. Except hes the main character whos supposed to be drawing players into his world and getting them invested in its story. Its almost impressive what terrible characters both the Zestiria protagonists managed to be considering neither one is even unlikable in the traditional sense. Theyre just amazingly badly written.

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I *will* say I'm mildly offended/surprised that you consider Senel more likable and better written than Sorey.

Shirley being dead last if completely right, mind, but considering how closely linked Senel and Shirley are, I don't... see how he's that much higher than her.

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So when I said I basically put myself in a position of having literally no expectations from Zestiria's story? Sorey is why. I haven't played many Tales of games, I own Symphonia/Zestiria/Berseria. Played all the way up to Kratos fight in the first (btw, I mean like... basically end game Kratos, not the first real fight of the game), then ended up lost, made it to the halfway point of Zestiria then I believe found a GotM game I wanted to play and uninstalled it, and then haven't started Berseria since I wanted to finish ToZ first.

But yeah, the two games I played contain naive characters. First, is Colette. She has a primary role, but also takes a back seat in a lot of convos because her naivete makes her nervous to take a front roll. Then we have Sorey... who shows us through the story how much of an ignorant fuck he is. Like, he literally has to be told when to do something and when to not do something the entire game. Maybe that's why Rose is not admonished for being a murderer, because unlike Sorey... She at least is capable of making decisions on her own (other than THIS IS A COOL ROCK, I MUST INVESTIGATE THE COOL ROCK).

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As for Sorey, I don't mind him, really. He's a bit bland, and a bit extremely sheltered, but he's genuinely alright as a character. A bit too generic shonen protag for a Tales game for my tastes, but he's a nice enough guy. I appreciate nice characters, especially these days. Although that... is the problem, a bit generic. Appreciate his interplay with Mikleo, although that's partially my having a fondness for the latter. Don't fully understand why he's this far down, considering a certain someone else is still in.

Not particularly fond of Emil either, but I put down ToS2 because the opening was driving me mad, and I see no need to force myself to play/read/watch stuff when I'm not liking the main characters of a Tales game. When I'm fairly certain I was supposed to like them at the start, at least.

Because I'd been through that song and dance with Legendia and the Xenosaga trilogy. ...I've softened on Shion since, Senel not-so-much.

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Tagging.

A little shocked Anise is still in at this point though.

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IhatethisCPU posted...

I *will* say I'm mildly offended/surprised that you consider Senel more likable and better written than Sorey.

Shirley being dead last if completely right, mind, but considering how closely linked Senel and Shirley are, I don't... see how he's that much higher than her.

Cool, got my first instance of mildly offending someone out of the way early!

WickIebee posted...

But yeah, the two games I played contain naive characters. First, is Colette. She has a primary role, but also takes a back seat in a lot of convos because her naivete makes her nervous to take a front roll. Then we have Sorey... who shows us through the story how much of an ignorant fuck he is. Like, he literally has to be told when to do something and when to not do something the entire game. Maybe that's why Rose is not admonished for being a murderer, because unlike Sorey... She at least is capable of making decisions on her own (other than THIS IS A COOL ROCK, I MUST INVESTIGATE THE COOL ROCK).

Pretty much. Like, I'm pretty sure I get the idea of Sorey. I see that they wanted him to be someone who grew over the course of his journey from someone who has to be led to even the most simple decisions to someone who can make the difficult-but-right decisions that shape the future of the world for centuries, but they go straight from point A to point B there without any buildup. It just never feels like the story is in any way about him.

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Anyway, here's another one that might surprise some people.

#86 - Patty Fleur (Vesperia)
Alls well that ends Welsh Corgi!

One of my biggest gaming-related shocks in recent memory was learning how popular this character is. For the life of me, I cant figure out what purpose Patty is supposed to serve. Why was she added to Vesperia? Nothing about her fits.

I feel like itd be obvious even to someone who didnt play the original how out-of-place she is. She repeatedly pops in and out at random times, eventually decides to stay with the party for no real reason, adds nothing to the overall plot, has an uninteresting obsession with Yuri, and her dialogue My God, her dialogue. Its embarrassing how clear it is that her lines are just poorly shoehorned in. Almost everything she says is just a meaningless echo or unneeded addition to something another character has said, and no one else even reacts to it. Or maybe they react by turning their head and then going back to their original position for the next line. Its even more jarring on the rare occasions she does say something thats fairly important and still no one reacts because the scene proceeded just fine even without her contribution in the original. Then theres all the Aye!s and Matey!s that are clumsily delivered by her grating, annoying voice actor in a way that would make sense for a little girl just playing pirate but become head-scratching when its revealed she actually was a fearsome guild leader. They wanted to give her the charm and whimsy of a kid playing dress-up and make-believe and the gravitas of the legendary Aifread, and the end result is that both parts feel hollow. But Im not sure any of that even compares to all the awful fish analogies. Theyre as forced, awkward, and unnecessary as everything else about this character.

Its too bad, because her battle style is awesome. Gambling in its many forms is one of my favorite hobbies, so Im always drawn to characters in video games that have a playstyle built around it. That being said, I think combining that with the Form Change gimmick mightve made her a little too complex, to the point that the AI cant use her effectively at all. And theres other characters Id rather play as than her because theyre just as fun with less effort even if theyre less creative, so she rides the bench quite a bit for me.

I spent years waiting for what was long known as Vesperia PS3 and I honestly didnt quite enjoy it as much as I expected to after all was said and done. And after reflecting on it, I think the biggest reason is that Vesperia in its original form was already a disjointed game with an uneven narrative (Ill have plenty more to say on that later, believe me), and that feeling is only amplified by Patty screwing up the pacing even further by dragging the party in random directions on a somewhat frequent basis and messing with an otherwise excellent party dynamic.

Most people, sports fans in particular, are probably familiar with the phrase addition by subtraction. Patty is subtraction by addition. Its a shame that such an unnecessary inclusion drags down the game as much as she does.

TL;DR: As silly and useless as a fishing line without bait. Feel free to come up with your own equally dumb and empty fish analogies, everyone.

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Smash Master posted...

Tagging.

A little shocked Anise is still in at this point though.

Yeah, her and Genis too.
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As much as I love Vesperia, favorite game of all time *because* of the party and how they blend together, *yeaaaaah* the story has... numerous... wouldn't say crippling, but 'badly in need of medical care' flaws, especially towards the end. (Just a reminder, just because you adore/like a game doesn't mean you can't be aware of it's faults. I do like Legendia despite the fact I despise Senel and Shirley.)

Still need to play my copy of Definitive Edition, unfamiliar with Patty outside of hearing about her addition to the PS3 version.

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I was never quite as high on Vesperia as a lot of Tales fans so I'd be interested to hear what someone who really really loved the game thinks of Patty, so if you ever do get around to DE it'd be cool to get your thoughts.

#85 - Chelsea Torn (Destiny)
"Sew buttons on his pants? ...He needs me for THAT? He was once a revered master archer! This is so embarrassing!"

Awful, awful, awful design. Visuals arent something that Im giving a whole lot of consideration to in this ranking (and if anything, good ones help characters more than bad ones hurt), but in Chelseas case, its unfortunately the most lasting impression she made on me. Its just that bad, and there arent enough other interesting aspects to her character to make up for it.

Shes likable enough, I guess, but shes also pretty shallow. The only bit of backstory we get for her comes in one short sidequest thats basically just an exposition dump, and the backstory itself is too familiar to resonate the way it needs to. And since it is just a sidequest, and because Chelsea is an optional character in the late game, it never comes up again. So her only real contribution is comic relief, mostly by dint of being the put-upon servant of her old master and the de facto kid-who-doesnt-like-being-treated-like-a-kid character. Not that interesting. Coming back to Phandaria after Garrs left for a while to find her awkwardly sitting on the throne got a chuckle out of me, but thats about it. Shes the kind of character who couldve really benefited from skits to make her feel less one-note.

In battle, Chelsea is one of several Tales characters that has a lot of potential but seems to be handicapped by the AI. Some of her Artes seem to consistently miss enemies if the AI is controlling her. In better hands, though, she can deal out a lot of damage very quickly, and she might be the overall best option for dealing with the Impulse enemies. Her big problem is that by the time shes recruitable, shell be perhaps 40 levels behind the rest of your party. Sure, she can catch up, but Im not sure its worth the effort at that point.

TL;DR: Everything good about Chelsea has been done better by other characters in the series, and her design and total lack of relevance really drag her down. Pretty lame party member.

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So glad I forgot to put Leon on my guess list. I was seriously like "darn I forgot to guess him and then he was the next character posted."

I haven't played anything after Abyss/Legendia except Berseria I watched my husband play.

Leon way to low though.

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I'm curious to know what exactly about Leon you like so much, because I've just never understood it with him.

Anyway, the Zesty slaughter continues...

#84 - Mikleo (Zestiria)
Get over yourself. Do you really think this is your dream alone?

Boring. Boooooooooooring.

Mikleo paradoxically ceases to be the least bit important to the Zestiria plot right around the time he becomes a Sub-Lord. Thats, like, an hour or two into the game. His role begins and ends with Soreys friend. Or Soreys love interest, if thats your interpretation. Honestly, I dont know how anyone could possibly even care either way. Their relationship isnt interesting either way. Practically every third line of dialogue at the beginning of the game is dedicated to telling us how close they are and how well they know each other. But we never actually see it, were just told about it. This is potentially my biggest pet peeve in fiction. If you have to tell us with any repetition whatsoever what two characters relationship is, youre not writing it well enough.

And actually, we see the opposite, where they get into a yelling match almost immediately after Sorey becomes the Shepherd in which Mikleo has to beat him over the head with his reasons for wanting to go on the journey. Which, incidentally, are exactly the same as Soreys. Great. I love having two characters in my party with identical interests and motivations and practically personalities, especially when they arent even interesting ones.

His exclusive purpose is to hang around the periphery of the party so Sorey has someone to geek out about ruins with and Edna has an easy target to antagonize. These roles, particularly the former, are not compelling. Half the time it doesnt even seem like they have any idea what the hell theyre talking about. Many of the Discovery Point skits theyre involved in start with them marveling at the things splendor and end with them throwing out every baseless theory as to its origin that comes to mind.

The funny thing is that this exaggerated subservience seems pretty much intentional considering the whole plot point that he was raised from birth (or death or reincarnation or whatever the crap) to eventually be Soreys Sub-Lord. Was that a failed attempt to give him an interesting backstory or a meta explanation of why hes so dull? Its strange to think about, too, given that, at one point, he mentions how he always thought of being the Shepherd as something one could just quit if one so desired. I mean, what? Clearly there was a breakdown in communication somewhere in that rearing, just like it was never properly communicated to me why I should give the slightest damn about this dude.

Ill give him this: I quite enjoy his done with this shit skit portrait, and not just because it encapsulates how done with this writeup I am. https://i.imgur.com/OOfZuqW.jpg

TL;DR: Destined to be a Sub-Lord? More like destined to be a Sub-BORED, am I right? Hyuk hyuk hyuk hyuk...

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Aww hell no. Gotta defend my husband's honor here.

But really, I actually like Mikleo a lot! Admittedly I do fall into the "Sorey's love interest" camp, so weigh my words however you want, lol. In the early-ish game I did feel like Mikleo was really plain and boring, but as skits piled up I started to see him as a really uniquely written character among the larger Tales line up.

Rather than boring, I see him as legitimately grounded and, dare I say, normal/believable? Which, in a series of colorful JRPG weirdos, is really rare! His conversations with Sorey legitimately feel like what you could expect from an IRL married couple or a pair of hetero life partners who've actually been together their whole life. In that sense, I'd argue you aren't just told about their bond - you absolutely do see it, and all throughout the game, at that! In a game as miserably written as ToZ is, the dialogue between/involving these two sticks out like a sore thumb as a case of actually impressive character writing to me.

Lailah: "Now Mikleo, tell Sorey your true name!"
Mikleo: "He already knows it!"
Lailah: "Oh my!"

^ This bit is legit fantastic from both a character and world building standpoint, made even better retroactively by a certain Berseria skit that drives home what a huge deal it is.

The sincerity of their relationship actually ends up elevating both characters for me quite a bit, but Mikleo is more responsible for it due to how much more passive Sorey feels. (Plus he has a pretty fun relationship with Edna, the other ToZ character I actually like.)

TLDR: Snacks are done, Mikleo is bae.

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NBIceman posted...

His exclusive purpose is to [give] Edna has an easy target to antagonize.

tbqh this alone probably should rank him ahead of, say, genis

Also I want to say that Lailah was the worst of the Zestiria Seraphim but I mean outside of Edna and Zaveid we're talking about a bunch of losers anyway. >_>

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Xiahou Shake posted...

Aww hell no. Gotta defend my husband's honor here.

But really, I actually like Mikleo a lot! Admittedly I do fall into the "Sorey's love interest" camp, so weigh my words however you want, lol. In the early-ish game I did feel like Mikleo was really plain and boring, but as skits piled up I started to see him as a really uniquely written character among the larger Tales line up.

Rather than boring, I see him as legitimately grounded and, dare I say, normal/believable? Which, in a series of colorful JRPG weirdos, is really rare! His conversations with Sorey legitimately feel like what you could expect from an IRL married couple or a pair of hetero life partners who've actually been together their whole life. In that sense, I'd argue you aren't just told about their bond - you absolutely do see it, and all throughout the game, at that! In a game as miserably written as ToZ is, the dialogue between/involving these two sticks out like a sore thumb as a case of actually impressive character writing to me.

Lailah: "Now Mikleo, tell Sorey your true name!"
Mikleo: "He already knows it!"
Lailah: "Oh my!"

^ This bit is legit fantastic from both a character and world building standpoint, made even better retroactively by a certain Berseria skit that drives home what a huge deal it is.

The sincerity of their relationship actually ends up elevating both characters for me quite a bit, but Mikleo is more responsible for it due to how much more passive Sorey feels. (Plus he has a pretty fun relationship with Edna, the other ToZ character I actually like.)

TLDR: Snacks are done, Mikleo is bae.

All valid points, and I guess it might not be unfair to say that maybe I'm just not super interested in the idea of a character that so aggressively subverts the colorful weirdo theme that's so prevalent in Tales and makes that the basis of his personality. There's other grounded party members that manage to fill a Mikleo-style role without sacrificing actual entertainment value or development, which is what it feels like with him for me. More than that, though (and again I have to be careful what I say so as to not spoil future ranking slots), I don't think it's a role the Zestiria party needs or wants. Other Tales games utilize their comparatively muted characters really well, whereas Mikleo just feels like a wet blanket (water pun not intended) thrown on top of something that wasn't very enjoyable to begin with.

That one quote is definitely a good one, and I guess it'd be more accurate to say Zesty almost never shows instead of telling, but I also think that exchange is the exception that proves the rule. I barely remember any other conversations between the two, and the ones I do are just as awkward and lacking in chemistry or nuance as anything else in the game. Arguments about archaeological finds and such. Sorey leans on Lailah and Rose far more often than he does Mikleo throughout the game - even their "pre-final battle" conversation ends up including the whole party before too long.

I do respect the, as you say, sincerity of the relationship, but I kinda feel like they used that solid foundation to avoid actually doing anything that compelling or memorable with it. Maybe that was an issue of it just not grabbing me from the beginning so that I had the feeling that the basis wasn't believable enough to justify its later proceedings? I don't know.

xp1337 posted...

tbqh this alone probably should rank him ahead of, say, genis

Also I want to say that Lailah was the worst of the Zestiria Seraphim but I mean outside of Edna and Zaveid we're talking about a bunch of losers anyway. >_>

Poor Genis is just taking this abuse from all sides. Just how far will he go...?

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Pretty solid so far. Leon and Mikleo a bit too low but I wouldn't rank them highly. Also feel Rose gets an unfair shake, though I do get the criticisms. I just think they're mostly leveled at the story's failures rather than her own, and as an actual character she's a lot of fun. Plus she's the most fun character to use in combat in the series imho.

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I suppose the difference there probably comes down to the degree to which you think the story's failures are Rose's direct fault. I just am of the opinion that she causes a large percentage of the game's problems in some way or another.

Anyway, let's see if this next one is a little less controversial.

#83 - Grune (Legendia)
Lets say goodbye with a smile. Id really like to see everyones biggest smile.

I, for one, was shocked when it was revealed that Grune was really a goddess in human form.

Alright, no I wasnt. Was anyone? I mean, it doesnt really matter, because its not like it made her a more interesting character or anything.

What do I even say about Grune? Shes completely flat in everything but her visual design. She spends the entire main story and all but maybe two hours afterwards doing literally nothing. And I mean literally not one single thing of any significance whatsoever. The goddess reveal doesnt come until the last thirty minutes. Obviously, the players know somethings up long before that (probably from her first appearance, really), but its so hard to care because theres nothing else intriguing about her. Being the quirky, flighty woman with gag boobs only gets you so far. So all of her development is really crammed into her goodbye scene, which is fairly well done but comes off completely hollow anyway, because theres no possible way to have any emotional attachment to her. The scene does more for some other characters than for her.

I wouldnt even say I dislike her. Theres not enough there to dislike. Shes pleasant enough and some of her antics almost made me smile, I guess. Whatever. Ive already put more thought into this writeup than Namco did into creating her.

TL;DR: Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. We find her sleeping and she spends the rest of her time putting me to sleep.

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We'll finish up the night by finishing up the bottom tier.

#82 - Chat (Eternia)
The correct response is aye aye, Captain!

The third straight one-name character and the first Eternia casualty is the slightly less-bad Patty. I guess that technically means better, but I hesitate to use that sort of positive verbiage in this situation.

Seriously, those two are in many ways the same character, with just a few differences that determined who ended up on top. And actually, Patty has her beat in a couple of those. Her look is as dull and unremarkable as they come, but Chats is actively displeasing. They both have a fun battle style (Chats combat strategy of just throw stuff is hilarious), but Pattys is more creative and isnt mostly locked behind a worldwide scavenger hunt.

Chat, though, enjoys the advantage in the more valuable aspects. For one thing, shes written like a kid playacting as a super serious pirate captain, just like Patty was, but where Patty really WAS a super serious pirate captain who was just aged down (thereby ruining both sides of her character), Chat actually is a kid playacting as a super serious pirate captain. And what do you know, it comes off somewhat endearing.

But the most important difference is that Chat is barely even around. Now, dont get me wrong, thats not really a good thing. In fact, its the prevailing reason that shes down here so low. But in this specific comparison scenario, its a boon, simply because shes not annoying the hell out of me in every damn cutscene. In other words, I dislike this character slightly less than I dislike another character by virtue of her being too irrelevant for me to expend a surplus of energy hating her. Sporadic and irrelevant beats always around and insufferable. Congratulations, I guess.

Had she not been playable, Id actually have a pretty favorable opinion of her. Judging her by the standards of NPCs, shes actually kinda fun. As previously stated, shes a good example of a child character thats somewhat precocious without being irritating, and she has some entertaining moments in general, usually in her reluctant interplay with Quickie. Plus, all the Aifread-related dungeons you go through in the course of her involvement with the party are pretty charming.

TL;DR: Unfortunately, Im not judging Chat by the standards of NPCs, or even in a vacuum all things considered. Im judging against playable party members, and considering you never even have to use her in a single battle if youre so inclined, those arent standards that favor her too heavily. Couldve been fun in a different role, but shes pretty lousy in the one she actually has.

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The reaper and a daemon are shaking their heads at this overwrought monstrosity. Intrinsic worth, zero."
82. Chat (Eternia)
83. Grune (Legendia)
84. Mikleo (Zestiria)
85. Chelsea Torn (Destiny)
86. Patty Fleur (Vesperia)
87. Sorey (Zestiria)
88. Leon Magnus (Destiny)
89. Bruiser Khang (Destiny)
90. Emil Castagnier (Symphonia)
91. Jay (Legendia)
92. Suzu Fujibayashi (Phantasia)
93. Marta Lualdi (Symphonia)
94. Rose (Zestiria)
95. Shirley Fennes (Legendia)

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Tales of Legendia's character design in general really put me off. Though Jay's one of the worst offenders. He looks like that kid from the Grudge only with worse fashion sense.

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Can't complain too much about the bottom of this list, though I will admit to thinking Mikleo is at least decent as a character. Definitely not on the level of annoyances like Grune, Chat and Patty.

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Okay, I'm sorry but if Mikleo's on the list and Anise is still on the board I could not disagree with this list any further from this point on. I fully respect your opinion on the matter, but I'm sorry, this is one of those cases where it's actively wrong.

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Kid characters in the series were awful until Zestiria and Berseria.

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I thought Karol from Vesperia was a solid character, though I think most people didn't like him
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Always thought Karol's fine, honestly. One of Vesperia's weaker PCs character-wise, though, through no real fault of his own. I also grew to like Genis, although I hated him for *yeaaaaaars* after I played Symphonia. ...Although I also hated Lloyd for about the same amount of time, so, I'm not exactly a bastion of reasonable and logical likes/dislikes. >_>'''

...Brief return to Sorey and Mikleo... thinking on it further, considering a certain... more platonic pair from Abyss I can understand Sorey being this low, since his counterpart did a somewhat similar storybeat with... marked differences and more consequences.

...Although I do still like Mikleo more than Guy.

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I know Karol's pretty hated and even I admit he's kind of annoying, but he's also the most knowledgeable member of the party about the Guilds and the general layout of the land, and I feel like they'd be super lost without him.

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Uh oh, some people getting riled up. Better take out a character no one cares about to distract them.

#81 - Hisui Hearts (Hearts)
How come lifes always forcing us to do the things we hate most?

I can sum up Hisui in one word - tiresome. Theres just nothingto work with here. His overly confrontational macho tough guy persona gets old after about three lines of dialogue, and yet it remains his dominant trait for the majority of the game. Really, its his only personality trait of note aside from the obsessive protectiveness toward Kohaku thats meant to be heartwarming but oftentimes just comes off as creepy. His constant berating and threatening of Kor, whos constantly risking his life to help Kohaku out despite having no real obligation to do so, is exhausting. Hes just not likable in any way.

He does get better towards the end of the game, after the rest of the party and especially Lithia act as a sort of moderating influence on him. Hes not so actively combative most of the time and a good deal more situationally aware, less prone to saying insensitive things and being less hot-headed in general. He also at least shows some remorse for how he treated Kor in the beginning, and by a certain point it becomes evident that any more jabs (physical or figurative) that he throws his way come more from whatever kind of odd rapport they managed to build than from genuine animosity. The Lithia romance itself isnt really great, though. Its not well-paced (Hisui kind of falls for her all at once and then we get this weird roller coaster where it gets a ton of focus one second and is almost completely ignored the next) and I never felt like they had much chemistry to begin with. It makes for a sweet enough ending, I guess, but thats about it.

Hes also hurt by being one of the few Hearts party members that I didnt really enjoy controlling in battle. Hes obviously useful, but the games combat system doesnt lend itself to his archetype. Its not a huge deal, but when taken alongside his other problems, it starts to become clear that Hisui just doesnt have many redeeming qualities.

TL;DR: His development in the last act of the game, and the rare times when he admittedly made me chuckle, arent enough to make up for the obnoxious attitude problems that otherwise define him as a character.

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Miibo definitely didn't deserve to be this low. But I also agree that past him becoming a sublord he's nothing more than something Edna steps on. Probably it's because all he can really do past that point is follow in Sorey's beliefs, since he's trying to suspend his own disbelief and believe in Sorey's ideals.

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Curious to see what the reaction to this one might be.

#80 - Colette Brunel (Symphonia)
But you know, that's not right. You have to survive, too, while also protecting the world. No matter how naive people may say you are, you can't just decide from the start that it's okay to die. That's what I learned in my last journey. I love this world with all my heart, and that's why I want to keep on living and protecting it.

Im sorry.

Stop apologizing!

Oh, right, hehe. Im sorry.

HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES do we have to have this exact interaction? It wasnt cute the first time and it damn sure isnt cute the twentieth.

Colette is one of the few characters on this list, alongside Patty that I dislike largely on the basis of being generally obnoxious. Shes an unfunny parody of herself. The divine blessed clumsiness gimmick is trash. Openly expressing a wish to see a stranger who just tried to kill you for presumably no reason again isnt something a good-hearted person does. Its something an idiot does. Sticking up for a group of people who are impersonating you in order to manipulate innocent townsfolk into giving them free stuff isnt endearing, its maddening and dangerous. Being a doormat who takes responsibility for tragedies that had very little to do with her in Dawn isnt admirable, its plain dumb and unnecessary. Her moments of actual insight dont come across as hidden depths, they come off as inconsistent characterization because shes so completely out of it in every way.

Colette has good moments and growth. Really, she does. She has a surprisingly mature outlook on Exspheres when the party learns how theyre created, speculating that the people whose lives made them would probably at least want them to be put to good use. She can be a good support system for Lloyd at certain times. And I think her arc, in a vacuum, is solid. Shes someone who was raised, essentially, to die (theres actually some interesting comparisons to Sync the Tempest to be made), which led her to develop a pervasive martyr complex, and by the end of Dawn shes finally learned that its okay to want to live.

But by that time I just dont caaaaaare. Shes built up two games of a bad taste in my mouth. Shes got almost as bad of a damsel-in-distress problem as Shirley and it was a surprising realization on my last Symphonia playthrough that she becomes extremely irrelevant to the plot after a certain point, especially if shes not chosen as Lloyds BFF. But hey, her weapons cool, I guess! Chakrams usually are. But playing as her gives me a feeling that I can most nearly compare to running underwater. Add in the cherry on top that I really dont care for her design or her voice actor and we just have a character that doesnt have a whole lot going for her.

TL;DR: At Colettes core is a young girl whos trying to literally take the world on her shoulders and allow it to crush her when it needs to. Her faith in others is unshakable; in herself, less so. Its a perfectly good basis for a character. If only Namco didnt trip over itself when trying to execute it every bit as much as she herself does when trying to walk.

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No, no that's fair. Not so much the trash thing, I leave that moniker to characters like OG Broly, Junko Enoshima and Aizen from Bleach, but she can be a bit annoyin'. My feelin' on her is that she improved *immensely* after I played Legendia and met Shirley, who is *so much worse* it's fuckin' infuriating.

...Although I was and... still am, at times, that 'apologizing too much' person, for waaaaaaay less reason than Colette. Not so much anymore, obviously but... yeah.

...And I'm startin' to think I understand why bitchface from Abyss is still on the list, but that my be my jackass amateur psychologist side takin' over so I'll refrain.

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The worst interaction ever, is when someone apologizes for apologizing too much. I know people that do that in real life. It really is the worst.

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IhatethisCPU posted...

...And I'm startin' to think I understand why bitchface from Abyss is still on the list, but that my be my jackass amateur psychologist side takin' over so I'll refrain.

I can't even quite tell who exactly this is supposed to be referring to.

#79 - Dezel (Zestiria)
I can say I did one thing right. Just one. And That one right thing made everything else worthwhile.

Dezel was very clearly intended to be a really cool dude, and I guess they had some success on that measure. Hes got a cool design, a cool fighting style, and a pretty cool personality. Ive always been partial to wind as an element, too, so I suppose he also gets a slight bump based on that.

Then he dies, and no one cares. I dont care, the party doesnt care, even Dezel himself doesnt seem especially bothered by it. Zaveid steps into his role in literally the next scene and after that hes barely even mentioned for the rest of the game. You almost forget it even happened.

Theres no tragedy in his death because all the tragedy is in his characters very existence. Hes not much more than a collection of random traits nonsensically thrown together to allow him to kill two party roles with one stone (the Wind seraph and the edgy loner). Like, why is he blind? It literally adds nothing to his story.

Hes just a blind loner dude that is nice to animals sometimes so the teenage girls who play Tales games can swoon over the dark guy with a soft side and who stands off to the side in cutscenes talking about wanting to kill hellions so the party has someone to preach at about how killing is wrong unless Rose does it. Oh, and who took over Roses body many times while she was unconscious to do revenge things? And nobody really seems to find that notably objectionable. And then it turns out that there was really no one to take revenge on because what happened was all his fault anyway, or something? I dont really know because that whole scene had about four different plot twists in it and they really didnt take the time to explain any of them, which, I suspect, is because even they had no idea what the story was.

TL;DR: It would have been much better if this character never existed. Everything about him feels so underthought and out of place in the Zestiria party that it's almost like he was originally conceived as a party member for another game entirely and was just inexplicably crammed into this one with a half-hearted attempt at a backstory that would justify his presence. Whatever. My head hurts.

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wow at this colette disrespect i will not stand for this. 2nd or 3rd best symphonia character there. how does she fall before genis, regal, or lloyd. r-i-g-g-e-d.

(I'm not actually mad but really Colette is in the top half of the OG Symphonia cast and I'm puzzled that she dropped before the others I noted.)

dezel still better than lailah how is worst seraphim still in play this is getting worrying

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What is it about Colette that makes you like her so much?

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NBIceman posted...

What is it about Colette that makes you like her so much?

That she's better than a general sub-par-to-boring cast! (I don't have a super great opinion of Symphonia's cast. Zelos is the best. And then it's like Presea and Colette and a bunch of losers so just by having her moments she looks better when compared to them!)

But I think her character arc of being raised knowing she was going to die and how it influences her actions and her desire to keep Lloyd from finding out is on the higher end of Symphonia plot/character arcs. Zelos blows them all away but Colette is basically running Yuna's arc given that the first third of Symphonia is basically FFX.

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NBIceman posted...

I can't even quite tell who exactly this is supposed to be referring to.

Its referring to Anise, whom.... I'm honestly baffled is still in this, myself.

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Colette is Yuna done badly.

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xp1337 posted...

That she's better than a general sub-par-to-boring cast! (I don't have a super great opinion of Symphonia's cast. Zelos is the best. And then it's like Presea and Colette and a bunch of losers so just by having her moments she looks better when compared to them!)

But I think her character arc of being raised knowing she was going to die and how it influences her actions and her desire to keep Lloyd from finding out is on the higher end of Symphonia plot/character arcs. Zelos blows them all away but Colette is basically running Yuna's arc given that the first third of Symphonia is basically FFX.

Ah, so it's not so much an affinity for her as an indictment of the rest of Symphonia.

I guess the Yuna comparison is pretty apropos considering I don't care for FFX all that much either.

Smash Master posted...

Its referring to Anise, whom.... I'm honestly baffled is still in this, myself.

I figured, but it's hard to tell sometimes with Abyss considering you can find a contingent of people with a fervent hatred for any of its characters without looking too hard.

Anyway, last one for the night.

#78 - Moses Sandor (Legendia)
Everybody else gets the chance to stand up and say something, but not Moses. Nooooo

In some ways I feel bad continuing to pound on Zestiria and Legendia, but hey, that's just the way things broke.

Its tough to find things to talk about with Moses, because I think he was intentionally designed to be kind of a one-note character. Now look, Im not asking for every character to be multidimensional, fully imagined, believable people with dramatic, deep development arcs. Party members who fill one specific role in the group can be perfectly fine, but they have to fill that role well.

And thats where Moses falls apart. His role is ostensibly to be the comic relief butt monkey of the Legendia cast. Hes more than a little goofy, he has terrible luck, and hes not particularly bright. The rest of the party has a lot of fun at his expense and he doesnt really do anything of note at any point during the story.

Heres the issue: Legendia isnt funny. And when a comic relief character of Mosess type isnt funny, he instead becomes simply pitiable. You start to just feel sorry for him. Jabs from other characters that are intended as good-natured become mean-spirited. Humorous accidents that befall him just seem like the universe piling on. And really, hes done nothing to deserve it. The events that prompt everyone to start referring to him as the stupid bandit arent even his fault, and everything he does afterwards is designed to help them out. He treats them way better than they treat him. The end result is that he, completely by accident, drags the rest of the party down. He makes them all look worse. Its the exact opposite of what a character like him is supposed to do, so I cant call him good.

His CQ shouldve been one of the more emotional and enjoyable ones, but it really seemed like the developers forgot Giet existed half the time during the main story, so we dont have the kind of emotional attachment to him that we need for his eventual departure to hit home. There were also some weird tone problems throughout the whole thing, like they felt weird about trying to make an actual serious story for the comic relief character, which results in neither emotion really landing. His fighting style is interesting enough given that no other Tales characters share it, but its restricted by Legendias battle system like every other party members is. And his design is an absolute eyesore. I dont really know what the bottom portion of it is even supposed to be.

Moses is set up at the beginning as a rather competent threat, and I sure wish theyd kept on that path with him. Instead, they turned him into a joke, and like all of the jokes in Legendia, it was terrible.

TL;DR: Moses is the Hans Moleman of Tales, except none of the misfortune directed his way is actually entertaining.

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Oof. Moses one of the franchise's best

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#94 - Rose (Zestiria)

I'm not gonna like this ranking at all. Not a top tier character but when annoying ass puppet girl and the bland phantasia cast are above this. eh


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tazzyboyishere posted...

Oof. Moses one of the franchise's best

Now this is a take I didn't expect. I know he's generally fairly well liked, but one of the best? What leads you to rate him so highly?

MegamanX posted...

I'm not gonna like this ranking at all. Not a top tier character but when annoying ass puppet girl and the bland phantasia cast are above this. eh

I'll take "annoying" or "bland" over "Mary Sue that almost single-handedly destroys the entire story and theming of the game" any day of the week. Even with all the excessive overthinking I did for this ranking I'm still not even sure she belongs ahead of Shirley.

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No one from Graces yet bleh. Such a boring cast. Mostly anyway.

The way things are going I think Asbel and Cheria will be out soon

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I actually liked most of Legendia's cast (except Shirley)

kind of shocked Anise is still in.

I like Leon because he gets character development in the remake and sequel which never came out here. Also I like bad boys :P

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Yeah, I figured that was it. I don't really know how anyone could care about Leon in the vanilla version.

#77 - Mint Adenade (Phantasia)
Please don't apologize. At that time, if you hadn't hidden my mother's death from me I wouldn't have been able to go on Truly Thank you

Mint is just dull. Shes every mid-90s JRPG white magic heroine that ever existed.

Shes a devout healer. Shes pure and quiet and shy. She loves all living things. She has some musical talent (which, to be fair, does tend to get you some bonus points with me). She falls in love with the main character. In battle, shes basically a heal bot and buffer.

And thats fine. It doesnt make her unlikable, just unremarkable. She serves her purpose fine and gets some good moments. The scene with her healing Yggdrasil is cool, and she gets a little shine in the final fight as the only one who cares to try and find out exactly what Dhaoss motivations are. I also really appreciate that they dont try to shoehorn in some last-minute drama about Cress not telling her that her mother was dead - their relationship is pretty pedestrian, but little moments like that at least show that they understand each other.

I do like her design, too. Its cute and it suits her. Im not in love with the hat, but I guess it gives the whole thing some personality, so I cant hate it either.

TL;DR: Mint is a good representative of Phantasia as a whole. Shes functional and has some charm but there arent really any risks taken, making her unmemorable. I cant really say I dislike her, but theres way too many characters in Tales that have way more going for them.

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