Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 408: War Crimes Are Bad

(+) Yeah! (+)

LightningStrikes posted...

If the Republicans were smart, they would be going Economy. Inflation. Economy. Inflation. over and over and over again. Dont even say the word abortion or anything like that.

Thank goodness they arent smart! Its a global crisis and sitting governments are getting punished all over the world. This should be easy for the Republicans and theyre bungling it. Good riddance.

Guns, abortion, and immigration are the three pillars of their primary voters though. So they can't ignore it in the primary which means Dems will always be able to use it against them in the general.

They have so many voters who are obsessed with it and have made sure the elected Rs also have strong opinions on all three.

"Democrats have a big night across the country and overperform polls for like the 3rd cycle in a row. Here's why the Biden campaign should be worried." - the media.

Glad to see that Ohio enshrined abortion rights, VA held strong (and even flipped a chamber to the Dems), and Kentucky re-elected Beshear.

though on a personal level my county continued (completed?) its slide into hell. *sigh*

And yeah, the GOP for some inexplicable reason get graded on a curve and get a bonus on the economy despite it doing worse under them but they (and their base) have doubled down so hard on the social issues that the country rejects - abortion and transphobia being the big ones and keep getting Ls at the ballot box for it in races that otherwise should be competitive.

Unfortunately, in races that are solid red it leads to demonstrably worse situations for those affected, but whenever those issues are taken out of their bubble they're still getting slapped down almost universally.

Thorn posted...

though on a personal level my county continued (completed?) its slide into hell. *sigh*

What happened locally?

A lot of them buy into the economy being better under Rs because all the billionaire tax haters pay/influence the spread of that kind of propaganda. If the voting base had brains theyd realize they just fuck themselves over while making life even easier for money hoarding goblins who would happily enslave the voters family line for eternity

I think it's more likely that they support lower taxes for billionaires and such because they see themselves as temporarily embarrassed billionaires-to-be.

PeaceFrog posted...

What happened locally?

County Executive went Republican for the first time in decades - while the county went red in 2020 it was by like 200 votes so I hoped maybe there was a chance Dems could hold it. Town Supervisor (long-time incumbent R was the guy who ran and won for county exec) went (well stayed, I guess - but it wasn't close) red. Basically all the town positions went red by a lot.

On one hand I'm not super surprised because I swear this place has been morphing into MAGA North since 2016 (actually it started after Obama was elected with the 2010 midterms) but still frustrating to see it go from purple-leaning-blue to apparently pretty solid red in basically 10 years.

PeaceFrog posted...

I think it's more likely that they support lower taxes for billionaires and such because they see themselves as temporarily embarrassed billionaires-to-be.

Maybe, but Id be amazed if anyone believed The American Dream even exists anymore. If you arent born into wealth youre probably 0.0000000000000000000000000001% to ever be truly wealthy

Yeah I'm familiar with that feeling. Iowa used to be purple with my area a pretty solid blue. Now the whole state is red and going full MAGA except for Iowa City and Des Moines who aren't big enough to win their district wide races.

htaeD posted...

Did it even help them during the 2008 crisis?

Bush was blamed and democrats tied every republican they could to Bush.

swordz9 posted...

Maybe, but Id be amazed if anyone believed The American Dream even exists anymore. If you arent born into wealth youre probably 0.0000000000000000000000000001% to ever be truly wealthy

Something, something, American Dream because you've gotta be asleep to believe it

htaeD posted...

Did it even help them during the 2008 crisis?

More in 2010.

Although I guess I'm kinda ignoring the Tea Party as well. But hell even Trump's first win focused more on the economy than they are now, when I think about it.

LightningStrikes posted...

Total lack of solidarity.

I'd expect solidarity AGAINST her, so that's a borderline (pleasant) surprise to see the number that low

Here are the 22 Democrats who voted to censure Tlaib:
Rep. Steve Cohen of Tennessee
Rep. Jim Costa of California
Rep. Angie Craig of Minnesota
Rep. Don Davis of North Carolina
Rep. Lois Frankel of Florida
Rep. Jared Golden of Maine
Rep. Dan Goldman of New York
Rep. Josh Gottheimer of New Jersey
Rep. Greg Landsman of Ohio
Rep. Susie Lee of Nevada
Rep. Kathy Manning of North Carolina
Rep. Jared Moskowitz of Florida
Rep. Wiley Nickel of North Carolina
Rep. Chris Pappas of New Hampshire
Rep. Marie Gluensenkamp Perez of Washington
Rep. Pat Ryan of New York
Rep. Brad Schneider of Illinois
Rep. Kim Schrier of Washington
Rep. Darren Soto of Florida
Rep. Ritchie Torres of New York
Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz of Florida
Rep. Frederica Wilson of Florida

Absolute murderers row of dogshit Democrats.

How ironic it is that Dems are holding on because of GOP zealotry towards abortion. Hopefully theyll drum up some more juicy nightmare fuel for 2024 to keep Joe from getting cooked.

To be clear its not that Republicans are better or even have more public support on the economy, its more not the people currently in charge hence why Republicans got hammered for the crash in 2008 then in 2010 used the very same crash they helped create to hammer Obama. Generally I agree that the reason they have gone so wacko is that the activist base (and key figures at the top of the hierarchy) is pulling them to the right which is true of right-leaning parties across the world. Its a big part of how the the world got Liz Truss. What I think is different with the Republicans is that for most parties they get beaten a few times go ugh, fine, elect somebody more moderate then start the cycle all over while the Republicans have lost three national elections in a row with Trump but still swear by the guy.

LightningStrikes posted...

To be clear its not that Republicans are better or even have more public support on the economy

Actually, I'm pretty sure polling (as shaky as it's been since 2016) has refuted this more or less. Republicans basically always win on the "who do you trust more on the economy?" question.

I'm pretty sure it's a combination of "lower taxes" and the fact that they don't hide the fact that they're so tied to big businesses - and people just think "well if they're doing what companies want it must be good for the economy" and not the reality of "actually it's really good for the executives and stockholders - and sucks for everyone else" along with the successful tarring-and-feather of Dems as "tax-and-spend." Essentially, the Reagan-era propaganda is extremely baked into the public consciousness and has been for 40+ years.

You basically need to catch them in the middle of one the crashes they cause (which is trickier than it sounds because usually it takes a few years for economic policies to really get going) like 2008 to disrupt that - and then it reverts back to the norm after like a year because the electorate has the memory of a goldfish.

I meant more that its not necessarily the case though as you say the polls show it. I imagine like anywhere else when theyve crashed the economy again it shreds their credibility as you say. But yeah this is something that winds me up to no end, the right-wing brand of being good with the economy even though there is absolutely no evidence of current right neoliberal economic dogma being beneficial for the economy as a whole and plenty of evidence against it. Unfortunately a lot of people just base their political opinion on vibes.

Separate from election news, house Republicans have again removed their masks and just said "fuck those kids that we pretend to care about."

https://19thnews.org/2023/11/womens-bureau-federal-agency-house-proposes-elimination/

Overall, the recommendations from House Republicans allocates $9.8 billion, 29 percent less in funding to the Department of Labor than it received for fiscal year 2023 and nearly $6 billion less than President Joe Biden requested. The departments labor enforcement agencies, including the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), would see an 18-percent reduction. The bill also eliminates the departments International Labor Relations Board, which works to strengthen global labor standards in part by promoting racial and gender equity. It is the largest funder worldwide of programs designed to combat child labor, forced labor and human trafficking.

Emphasis mine.

why do you think they are against abortions

they need to keep their child labor pool big

Heard my first Trump ad - his main talking point was that he smashed Isis and kept peace in the middle east. Then the ad discusses Joe Biden as a financial disaster.

When I think of peace I definitely think of Donald Trump. What a joke.

FFDragon posted...

why do you think they are against abortions

they need to keep their child labor pool big

Yep, more impoverished babies born means more future factory workers at billionaire corporations and whatnot. Id say more soldiers, but thats on the decline because of obesity. Guess thats not an issue when one day America might not even have an active healthy supply of soldiers though

neonreaper posted...

Heard my first Trump ad - his main talking point was that he smashed Isis and kept peace in the middle east. Then the ad discusses Joe Biden as a financial disaster.

Thanks, Jared! All those bribes that he received from the Saudis really helped everyone out.

Ivanka was on the stand today, and while her testimony and behavior was more typical of what you'd expect in an actual courtroom - reporters seem to think that it was pretty devastating for Trump.

Ivanka herself didn't say much - she repeatedly claimed she did not recall events even as the AG presented her with her own contemporaneous emails to refresh her - but the AG was able to use this as a way to introduce those documents into evidence and it seems to (my untrained eyes) provide a pretty clear and compelling case that the AG's portrayal of events was in fact what was going on.

https://twitter.com/lawofruby/status/1722318339760886220
https://twitter.com/Jose_Pagliery/status/1722283901253550123

To summarize basically, the NYAG made the case - and Ivanka's own emails seem to support - that: the Trump Organization sought loans from various commercial real estate firms but were either turned away completely or given terms that were nowhere near what Trump would/could accept. Eventually they found their only option was the private wealth management group of Deutsche Bank (Deutsche Bank's own commercial real estate group being among those who would not offer terms that Trump wanted) and even then only if Trump could guarantee a minimum net worth of $2-3 billion (exclusive of "brand value") by providing proof in accurate statements of financial condition (again, these being the documents central to the case) and that her emails also show that even the Trump Organization lawyers believed that the net worth condition could be "a problem."

There was also a moment where the AG asked Ivanka about a revocable trust set up in connection to the Old Post Office project and if that trust was ever made to pay Trump so that he could satisfy that guarantee. Ivanka agrees there was such a trust but testifies she does not believe it was ever made to pay her father. The AG then immediately produces a document that she, Don Jr., and Eric all signed on behalf of their respective trusts that pledged to make "prompt and unconditional payment" for that guarantee - i.e. Trump forced his adult children to pay him so that he could meet one of the guarantees Deutsche Bank imposed.

Ivanka was cross-examined as well and the defense tried to instead tell the story as Deutsche Bank offering terms so wildly favorable to Trump because they wanted to build a relationship with him and his family. She's done now and it's wrapped up for the day. Ivanka was the last witness on the AG's list and the defense's case is expected to begin tomorrow.

I expect the defense to just be a lot of garbage so I doubt I'll do big write-ups on it like I did today and Monday though.

They've been good write ups

LightningStrikes posted...

If the Republicans were smart, they would be going Economy. Inflation. Economy. Inflation. over and over and over again. Dont even say the word abortion or anything like that.

Thank goodness they arent smart! Its a global crisis and sitting governments are getting punished all over the world. This should be easy for the Republicans and theyre bungling it. Good riddance.

If voters were smart, that economy/inflation message would not work. The US economy is doing great, and there are way worse things than a little inflation which has already come way down and appears to be under control.

It's depressing to me every time I hear people talk about how things have never been worse and blaming Biden, just because in 2022 we had inflation in the 7-9% range. Do they not remember 2008-2011? The Iraq War? Hillary calling working class people deplorable and giving speeches to banks for $250k a speech?

We can't always be in the worst crisis of our lives; not every election can be the most consequential election in decades. I won't speak for the rest of the world because as I understand it the US economy has been a top performer the last few years, but things are not so bad economically here and they aren't so bad overall either. They could get a lot worse if Trump gets reelected and enacts his promised policy of retribution. Wish Biden would start using Trump's strategy of bragging every time a good economic stat comes out.

Well yeah like I said people mostly form their political opinions based on vibes. The US is one of the better performers economically right now in large part because of Bidens actions. But its still experiencing global pressures and people always blame the guy in charge for those. See the whole world right now.

Looks like SAG-AFTRA won big, strike ends tonight. When The Studios set a deadline last week with threatening language and then just cowered back when they day passed, it was clear they had lost all hand.

SAG got a version of the contract this morning and sent it back saying they still wanted more AI protections, and The Studios just say "fuck it" and gave it to them.

Embarrassingly they still tried to pretend and set another deadline today saying sign by 5, knowing full well that they'd already conceded to the final demand to get SAG to sign.

You love to see it.

At the same time, look for all the streaming services to increase by $5-$10 a month sometime next year because you know they're passing those costs right along.

red_sox_777 posted...

Hillary calling working class people deplorable and giving speeches to banks for $250k a speech?

I know it's red sox but come on. She very clearly was calling the more extremist Trump supporters deplorable and she was so obviously right. Should have never apologized for that comment. January 6th and trying to overthrow democracy is pretty fucking deplorable man

Hillary: "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic people are deplorable" (paraphrased)

People: What did you say about ME?!

I mean yeah, if you're choosing to put those labels on yourself to be offended then you're probably not a good person. And if that's not you? Then she wasn't talking about you. It was pretty straightforward.

_Blur_ posted...

I know it's red sox but come on. She very clearly was calling the more extremist Trump supporters deplorable and she was so obviously right. Should have never apologized for that comment. January 6th and trying to overthrow democracy is pretty fucking deplorable man

She said half of the people supporting Trump were deplorable. Not the far right fringe, but half. Also, January 6 happened years after that comment and was not perpetrated by anything like half of Trump supporters.

Forceful_Dragon posted...

Hillary: "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic people are deplorable" (paraphrased)

People: What did you say about ME?!

I mean yeah, if you're choosing to put those labels on yourself to be offended then you're probably not a good person. And if that's not you? Then she wasn't talking about you. It was pretty straightforward.

What's the point of the statement then? Almost everyone agrees those things are bad. She said it was half of people who supported Trump.

I'd say she was closer to right than wrong.

Pokmon go to the polls was a much more offensive statement.

Her being mostly right or not is sort of besides the point. She was kicking people when they were down, just because she had more power and wealth than they did. If you can find me one instance prior to 2017 (so before MTG, George Santos, Lauren Boebert, etc. got elected) where Hillary called a Republican member of Congress deplorable or something equally bad, I'll be impressed.

Especially in hindsight, the only thing wrong about what she said was describing them as a basket's amount of deplorables. A basket does not contain all of these deplorables.

Maybe that phrasing wasn't fitting for a President. Still, we know who she ran against. That dude's daily speech and previous life history wasn't fitting for a President. How many quotes could people pull up about Donald saying things just as bad or worse as "basket of deplorables" about Democrats?

i'm much happier in a world with pokemon go to the polls

it's just one of those things like Somehow Palpatine Returned, it feeds me life

HaRRicH posted...

Especially in hindsight, the only thing wrong about what she said was describing them as a basket's amount of deplorables. A basket does not contain all of these deplorables.

Maybe that phrasing wasn't fitting for a President. Still, we know who she ran against. That dude's daily speech and previous life history wasn't fitting for a President. How many quotes could people pull up about Donald saying things just as bad or worse as "basket of deplorables" about Democrats?

Again, if you can find something in the 2016 campaign where Trump goes after huge numbers of Democratic voters - not politicians, not celebrities, not influencers, not billionaires, not union leaders - like that, please point me to it and I'll withdraw.

red_sox_777 posted...

What's the point of the statement then? Almost everyone agrees those things are bad. She said it was half of people who supported Trump.

You can argue about "half", but at that point you are determining what % of Trump's supporters fall into those categories, and the issue is that it's a problematically high %. Whether you settle at 49% or 18% or 26% or whatever you think it really should be, it's a problem. Not only is it a problem, but it's a high enough % that it's the kind of rhetoric that won him the nomination. And sure, a large % of republicans allowed themselves to be fooled that he's just a "successful businessman" that they can hold their nose while they cast a vote for him.. But you can't deny the not-insignificant percentage of mask-off terrible people who loved Trump because of the way he enabled them. When you have that many awful people agreeing that one of the candidates is "their guy" then you should really spend a minute to try and figure out why that is.

Who gives a shit what Trump had said about Democrats, he did way worse than political shit talking. What an embarrasing attempt at equivilancy.

One of the Central Park 5 literally just won a seat last night.

Forceful_Dragon posted...

You can argue about "half", but at that point you are determining what % of Trump's supporters fall into those categories, and the issue is that it's a problematically high %. Whether you settle at 49% or 18% or 26% or whatever you think it really should be, it's a problem. Not only is it a problem, but it's a high enough % that it's the kind of rhetoric that won him the nomination. And sure, a large % of republicans allowed themselves to be fooled that he's just a "successful businessman" that they can hold their nose while they cast a vote for him.. But you can't deny the not-insignificant percentage of mask-off terrible people who loved Trump because of the way he enabled them. When you have that many awful people agreeing that one of the candidates is "their guy" then you should really spend a minute to try and figure out why that is.

People who were actually in the basket of deplorables were never going to vote for any Democrat. But when the leading presidential candidate comes out and says that about 25% of US voters think that way, that pushes a lot of people who aren't there into thinking that it is normal and okay, since so many people apparently think that way.

Like, why not just call Trump deplorable? I don't think Hillary ever directed that level of vitriol at Trump directly.

the only thing wrong with what hillary clinton said was "half" instead of "all" and "deplorable" instead of a way worse insult lmao

I saw that comment and you all took the bait oh nooooooo.

But yeah look at any poll of Republicans and the statement is clearly pretty accurate as you always have at least 50-60% basically picking the dog punching option no matter what like that Gaza aid poll, but really half is quite generous. Was it a wise statement by Hillary? No! As evidenced by the fact that were still talking about it. But it was certainly fair.

While were taking the bait, the idea that a substantial portion of Trumps supporters constitute the working class (at least any more than Hillarys) has always been absurd. Income was positively correlated with likelihood to vote Trump both times.

https://twitter.com/jdawsey1/status/1722429318385500607

"Hannibal Lecter, he was a nice fellow, but that's what is coming into our country right now."

i have questions here

this is not the first time trump has referred to hannibal lecter in a positive manner but now is he saying we have cannibals coming into the country or "nice fellows"? and if the latter is he framing that as a negative?

My initial reading of it is that he seems to be saying that Hannibal Lecter is nice, but they dont live up to his standards? Alternatively that Hannibal Lecter is nice but still bad and is coming to the US?

LightningStrikes posted...

While were taking the bait, the idea that a substantial portion of Trumps supporters constitute the working class (at least any more than Hillarys) has always been absurd. Income was positively correlated with likelihood to vote Trump both times.

I'mma let you in on some secret knowledge. When people in the US say "working class voters" they're talking exclusively about white people.

Kenri posted...

I'mma let you in on some secret knowledge. When people in the US say "working class voters" they're talking exclusively about white people.

like Hanibal Lecter

Donald was being sarcastic on the "nice fellow" part, but that doesn't change that it's weird to hear in Presidential campaign rallies.

Mads Mikkelsen > Anthony Hopkins

Also Manchin is not seeking reelection

kevwaffles posted...

Also Manchin is not seeking reelection

Obligatory note that despite all the hate he gets, Manchin was way better than anyone else who could have won in West Virginia.

But also fuck him for holding the Dems back so much, especially now that there's no "he needed to do that to win the next election" defense.

nope Manchin is a piece of shit.

atleast if there was a republican in that seat there would be an excuse.