Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 408: War Crimes Are Bad

(+) Yeah! (+)

Not to mention Tuberville holding up all the military promotions so that the incoming R can install the "yes men" who will allow the military to be used for their purposes. They don't want any more Mark Milley types who put the country and the Constitution first.

I've not read all the details of the whole Project 2025 thing but it's a fucking enormously scary proposition.

Jack Bauer would have tortured the shit out of Donald Trump by now.

Yeah it's extremely frightening and fucked up. It's an absolute shame that his horrific lifestyle hasn't caught up with him yet.

https://twitter.com/stevemorris__/status/1724477546408857834

Major fucking yikes here

they have to know this yes?

I wont ask why because I know the answer but its very, very funny that somebody like that is at a March for Israel.

https://twitter.com/BenLorber8/status/1724473135083254136

Sounds like that speaker is right at home, and the Democrats are the ones who are out of place.

I was gonna say I recognized that name - and yeah, it's the dude McCain turned away because he was too extreme for him. (yes i know the tweet says that, it's what jogged my memory)

Our next stopgap CR just passed the House (this kinda snuck up on me, I knew they were working on it, and I knew that the HFC opposed it and Dems were going to have to save it again but I didn't know we'd get a vote today)

If it's the same bill I'm thinking of, it's this weird-ass two-tiered CR where for some bizarre reason some of the funding runs out at one date and the rest on another. And it's not a huge gap, it's like mid-January and then start of February or something.

In any event: passed 336-95 (needed 288 votes - 2/3s - because they had to bypass normal process because the GOP didn't have the votes to go through normal process themselves) (the one that ended McCarthy's Speakership was 335-91)

Dems: 209-2
GOP: 127-93

It's truly disturbing how people chanted "No ceasefire" as if ceasefire is some inherently bad thing, and that civilian deaths are some good thing that will surely bring the hostages home. I mean it's worked so far, right? People act like it's okay to kill as many civilians as you do members of Hamas. They'll justify it by saying "They voted in Hamas!" nevermind that their last election was in 2006, and that Hamas was a vastly different organization then. Nevermind that most Palestinians weren't even born yet to vote in that election, and that none have been held since. Because that's not a convenient fact to remind people as more than 4000 children die, and many more become orphans. And it's not just the conservatives. It's the liberals too. Some conservatives oppose it (of course many of them for anti-semitic reasons, just as some support it for anti-semitic reasons, like John Hagee who was invited to be a speaker. Funny how they lecture us on how we shouldn't support Palestinian Civilians because they are against LGBT people, while inviting someone who praised Hitler and blamed Hurricane Katrina on LGBT people) Keep in mind that people like Hagee support Israel so that Jesus comes back and sends them all to hell and then usher in the end of times.

Rashida Tliab gets censured, while Max Miller gets to say "Turn Gaza into a parking lot" and Brian Mast compares Palestinian citizens to Nazis, and don't get so much as a condemnation. In Florida, Michelle Salzman says to 'kill them all'. This is why I don't think there's any coming back for this country.

Yes it's awful what Hamas has done to the innocent Palestinians.

Obellisk posted...

Yes it's awful what Hamas has done to the innocent Palestinians.

Ahh yes, Israel is totally blameless in their campaign for collective punishment.

Dancedreamer posted...

their campaign for collective punishment.

that is definitely one way you can choose to look at this situation.

DAMMIT BERNIE

https://twitter.com/Dexerto/status/1724511671115252010?s=19

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/0/049b7e0a.jpg

Hamas bad
IDF bad

both things can be true and both would like to ethnically cleanse the other

Obellisk posted...

Yes it's awful what Hamas has done to the innocent Palestinians.

Literal abuse language, absolute garbage.

Israel has killed multiple orders of magnitude more Palestinians than Hamas has killed Israelis.

Meanwhile they keep getting caught making up dumbass lies every day to trick numbskulls into dehumanizing an entire people and being ok with ethnic cleansing. Good job!

Just so we're clear and don't go off on a tangent, Hamas is not good, I condemn the deaths of all innocent people, but when we look at the "scoreboard", Israel is much, much worse.

This is a really frustrating conversation generally because no matter what you say can and will be used against you thanks to polarisation. It doesnt matter which side its about. Which of course is what both the Israeli government and Hamas want. I at least hope that everybody in this topic can agree that ethnic cleansing is wrong, killing civilians is wrong, there should be an immediate ceasefire regardless of if you call it that, and the way forward is a two state solution.

If Bojack can get it right, then I'd hope the people in this topic could.

AbsoluteUnit posted...

Literal abuse language, absolute garbage.

Israel has killed multiple orders of magnitude more Palestinians than Hamas has killed Israelis.

Meanwhile they keep getting caught making up dumbass lies every day to trick numbskulls into dehumanizing an entire people and being ok with ethnic cleansing. Good job!

I would hope we could agree on the fact that Hamas took no regard for its own people before launching an attack which they knew damn well would lead to the exact response they are receiving. It was a two fold victory for them. 1, kill as many jews as possible and 2, get the world to turn their backs on Israel by being forced into killing innocent civilians.

Yeah, angry extremists (created, cultivated, and supported by Israel btw) tend to do that, eventually.

As far as "being forced into killing innocent civilians", we were in Afghanistan for 20 years, estimates of 4.5 MILLION people being killed in the region due to our activities in Iraq + Afghanistan, and literally the Taliban took control of the country the second we left.

You don't eliminate insurgent extremists by killing civilians, that's how you get them.

https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1724698306553504184

Really laying it out like that, huh.

Sbell, the thing here is that literally nobody is forcing Israel to kill thousands of innocent civilians and displace 2 million others. Israel has killed a similar number of children in the last month than the US did in the entire time we were in Iraq. That's a pretty incredible pace to be on.

Obellisk posted...

forced into killing innocent civilians.

That's a choice they made, multiple times and all too willingly.

I wish I would have born not in Israel so at least I could be objective
I am very curious to know what my opinion would have been regarding the Israel-Palestine conflict
Because right now I swear I can't see how can anyone blame us or criticize anything we are doing in this war.
But again, as I am a Israeli Jew, I am biased by nature..so...

PeaceFrog posted...

literally nobody is forcing Israel to kill thousands of innocent civilians and displace 2 million others

If you don't consider Hamas 7/10 attack to be "forcing Israel" to invade Gaza I don't know what will

Nanis23 posted...

I wish I would have born not in Israel so at least I could be objective
I am very curious to know what my opinion would have been regarding the Israel-Palestine conflict
Because right now I swear I can't see how can anyone blame us or criticize anything we are doing in this war.
But again, as I am a Israeli Jew, I am biased by nature..so...

I have Israeli family. It's hard not to be biased. My heart breaks for every displaced and family shattered child but still...

hamas would have a much smaller base of extremists to recruit from in gaza if israel did not insist on being an apartheid state

hamas likely would not exist in it's current form at all if israel hadn't stomped the plo in gaza into the dirt in the 80s and 90s and created a void that extremists were eager to fill

but hamas is now an extremely useful tool for the right-wing in both the us and israel as perpetual stalking horse for ginning up frothing anger and keeping a grip on power. every few years a few hundred israeli civilians die, and in return the war hawks of the world get to fire up the money and votes machine and harvest the spoils

alas, better things aren't possible (registered trademark of the democratic party)

so everyone will keep listening to violence merchants and killing each other, forever

The 10/7 Hamas slaughter was atrocious and definitely warranted a response. That attack killed 1,200 civilians.

The IDF response since has killed around 12,000 civilians. With no signs of slowing down.

That's a whole factor of ten higher already. And the ones they aren't killing they are forcing out and will likely never allow them back.

It's a proportionality thing coupled with the fact that you have a superpower army clobbering a cobbled together extremist group.

Look, the IDFs actions in the severity of bombardment as well as cutting off electricity and water clearly amount to collective punishment, which is a war crime. If the ICC is allowed to investigate we can reasonably assume which way itll go, hence why the Israeli government dont want that. You dont need to be miles removed to get that. At the same time it doesnt excuse what Hamas did, yet it of course must be noted that even by the Israeli governments estimates they have now killed many more civilians in retaliation than were killed in the attacks.

The thing is, most of the people in this topic actually have direct experience with this through 9/11 and the resulting invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq which were much deadlier than the initial attacks. Just about everyone here recognises that was a huge mistake. In that sense the 9/11 comparisons are spot on because both times there was a disproportionate response thar made things much worse for everybody. No lessons were learned.

Facts. As a (US) veteran, the 9/11 response was incredibly disproportionate and flat wrong. This 10/7 response from Israel is similarly disproportionate and wrong.

FFDragon posted...

That attack killed 1,200 civilians.

The IDF response since has killed around 12,000 civilians

Why people keep bringing this up?
It's not about "score". It's not about "who kills more". It never was, never is, and never will be.
Had Hamas raised a white flag right after the first bomb the IAF dropped, they would have had like 10 civiliians dead and we would have considered this war a victory
But if we declare a ceasefire now, it doesn't matter we killed 10 times as much people, we lost - because Hamas still exists.

I swear I don't understand what any other alternative people suggest because nobody suggest anything, they only complains.
We pretty much stopped (or nearly stopped) the air bombing on Gaza and now it's all ground forces, and it's still not good enough?
Like, seriously, how would you handle it any better?

(very important thing to take into consideration because for some reason people don't realize it - you need to protect the lives of your soldiers and prevent them from encountering any deadly traps)

Nanis23 posted...

It's not about "score". It's not about "who kills more".

Hmm

do people really not understand how people can criticize causing the deaths of 4000 children? idgi. kids have no choice in where they're born. and how many more have been orphaned? how can you look at the faces of the children who were killed or orphaned and not think 'wow, this is horrible! how can anyone be okay with this'? but i guess they're probably not looking at their faces. those kids are nothing but numbers. its easy when its just statistics i guess. or maybe they are and they still are okay with it. how can you look at the fear in their eyes and think this is justice?

we should hate hamas because they kill civilians, but we should be okay with israel doing it. makes no sense to me. when did two wrongs make a right? i guess as long as it's other people's children dying its okay. its easier that way.

I mean as far as war crimes are concerned it very much does matter how many civilians you are slaughtering.

Even ignoring that, the destructive gameplan Israel is employing is radicalizing the next generation of extremists and will only compound the issue in years to come (see: us in middle east)

If I knew the right answer I'd have made it much deeper into the military, and made a whole lot more money there. But just because I can't hand you the right answer doesn't mean that I can't clearly recognize the wrong one.

I mean this is also going to be a disaster for Israel anyway. Its shredded international reputation, its going to ultimately lead to at best a prolonged occupation of a people made to hate them by the IDFs excessive violence and quite possibly extended street fighting with no end in sight. Thats why Hamas did this attack in the first place, to provoke Israel into screwing everything up.

I mean to continue the 9/11 parallel a little bit, those attacks essentially ended global US hegemony and drastically increased the power of certain terrorist groups by effectively baiting the US (and the UK, Australia, Poland, and others) into a disproportionate response. Now we see the same kind of thing happen and Israel have fallen for it hook, line, and sinker.

Nanis23 posted...

I swear I don't understand what any other alternative people suggest because nobody suggest anything, they only complains.

there are definitely other suggestions but I guarantee you don't want to hear them

But if we declare a ceasefire now, it doesn't matter we killed 10 times as much people, we lost - because Hamas still exists.

why is that a loss and not at least a tie

like theres no amount of bombs makes Hamas just stop existing, so that cant be the bar you have to clear

KamikazePotato posted...

Hmm

I am not the one who said that. This is what other people make it sound like.
Like, Hamas killed 1200 Israelis, so when Israel killed 1200 people of Gaza, they should have stopped because the "score is now even"?
Again - I am not saying this, this is what other make it sounds like they suggest :|

Buffy_Summers posted...

do people really not understand how people can criticize causing the deaths of 4000 children? idgi. kids have no choice in where they're born. and how many more have been orphaned? how can you look at the faces of the children who were killed or orphaned and not think 'wow, this is horrible! how can anyone be okay with this'? but i guess they're probably not looking at their faces. those kids are nothing but numbers. its easy when its just statistics i guess. or maybe they are and they still are okay with it. how can you look at the fear in their eyes and think this is justice?

we should hate hamas because they kill civilians, but we should be okay with israel doing it. makes no sense to me. when did two wrongs make a right? i guess as long as it's other people's children dying its okay. its easier that way.

Of course we are not ok with this

I just don't see how it can be entirely avoided
It's a war in one of the most crowded cities in the world, in which the terrorist organization in it is using regular buildings as militiary camps

Israel leadership has on multiple occasions stated that Palestinian citizens don't exist and that the entire nation is Hamas, so as far THEY'RE concerned the end of Hamas means the elimination of every citizen in Gaza.

Im not a general, but even I can tell you that targeted attacks are more useful than these excessive bombings, that a ground invasion of one of the most densely populated areas on Earth will go poorly, and that cutting off water and electricity is a war crime. So my suggestion is dont do that.

If a scoreboard is what you've gotten out of this conversation, I'm not sure how else to explain.

Civilian loss is never is acceptable, but it is usually inevitable and avoided as much as possible. Israel does not seem to agree with any of that though.

The fact that Israel has killed so many civilians and their plan seems to continue to involve killing civilians is the problem.

MoogleKupo141 posted...

like theres no amount of bombs makes Hamas just stop existing

Eliminating Hamas is what Israel set as the goal of the war, and it was stated again and again - that this is the main goal and they will see it through.

Personally, I believe it's possible. Gaza is not a big place (being so crowded doesn't make it small either, but it's not like the West Bank)
The IDF is sitting on a mountain of military information - from hostages to documents found on the scenes, maps, laptops etc
They will be able to uncover every tunnel and every base evantually.

They will clearly eliminate Hamas "as we know it". As for the "day after" I have no idea, maybe Hamas 2 is inveitable though :|

UshiromiyaEva posted...

Israel leadership has on multiple occasions stated that Palestinian citizens don't exist and that the entire nation is Hamas, so as far THEY'RE concerned the end of Hamas means the elimination of every citizen in Gaza.

I admit we have a lot of exteremist idiots that should shut the fuck up and get kicked out of any political group
Thanksfully they are not the ones making the war decisions

But also, doesnt Israel have one of the most advanced intelligence services in the world? Feels like there could be a bit more precision in some of these strikes even if we take the stance that there do need to be strikes. Also, Israel could work better with Egypt to get civilians out of there, and not punish Irish or Spanish citizens (remember, allied nations) by delaying their evacuation because their governments criticised Israels response.

Nanis23 posted...

I admit we have a lot of exteremist idiots that should shut the fuck up and get kicked out of any political group
Thanksfully they are not the ones making the war decisions

Netanyahu said this and I'm pretty sure he's making decisions.

The doctored video the IDF put out this morning where they faked finding a bunch of weapons in a Gaza hospital has been taken down.

Honestly they would have garnered left attention if they'd just left it up.

https://twitter.com/JoshuaPHilll/status/1724927477112332769?s=19

UshiromiyaEva posted...

The doctored video the IDF put out this morning where they faked finding a bunch of weapons in a Gaza hospital has been taken down.

Honestly they would have garnered left attention if they'd just left it up.

https://twitter.com/JoshuaPHilll/status/1724927477112332769?s=19

Was reuploaded 23 minutes ago
Not sure why. Seems like it's 22 seconds shorter. What was cut?
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1724934932718293286

Also, stating that "faked finding a bunch of weapons"
Or suggesting that the IDF planted them there is wild

But it doesn't matter because you will believe what you want to believe, at the end no one can really confirm whether they really were there or if the IDF really planted them there
So this is really pointless tbh

Nanis23 posted...

Also, stating that "faked finding a bunch of weapons"
Or suggesting that the IDF planted them there is wild

But it doesn't matter because you will believe what you want to believe, at the end no one can really confirm whether they really were there or if the IDF really planted them there
So this is really pointless tbh

Obviously it's true for me as well. I can't prove the IDF didn't plant the evidence. I can't prove anything.
This is all about what you want to believe in.
Some people, to this day, still refuse to admit that the hospital bombing was done by a Jihad misfire and not the IDF, despite multiple countries investgations saying so.

There is also the story about Bashir Hajji, a 75 years old that talked with a IDF soldier and then later was found dead. Some say Hamas killed him, some say Israel.
Can anyone prove this? No
(I just don't see why we would need to kill a 75 years old civillian but ok...)