Poll of the Day > Israel declares war after massive attack from Hamas.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Things are about to get a bit more spicy in the middle east.

https://youtu.be/PcQaG4sC9BM?si=Y1VUtaW-nc5AqvGQ

Because more war is exactly what this world needs >_>

I think the big concern now is if this will embolden Iran. If they see this as a win for Hamas, they might be tempted to throw their hat in the ring. That's the scary part about any kind of conflict surrounding Israel. It doesn't take much for bigger players to get pulled in.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/9/4/2/AADUYLAAE6Me.jpg

https://youtu.be/BWf-eARnf6U?si=zJ6wTjKwP4rJSW62

Of all the armed conflicts in the world, the one between Israel and Palestine has always made the least sense to me. What a total waste.

This is not going to help the Palestinian people. It's just going to get a shitload of civilians killed.

Gaawa_chan posted...

This is not going to help the Palestinian people. It's just going to get a shitload of civilians killed.

It has literally never been about the Palestinian people.

Which is why groups like Hamas are generally funded by nations like Saudi Arabia and Iran.

It's basically politics and gamesmanship, and always has been. It's like the proxy wars fought between the US and USSR during the Cold War (or the "Great Game" back in the 19th century between Britain and Russia) - it's almost never about the a actual conflict or the people suffering in it, it's about the overall big picture and being used as pawns in a larger game.

po you would have had more relevance if you instead said the proxy war the us is having with ukraine vs russia

faramir77 posted...

Of all the armed conflicts in the world, the one between Israel and Palestine has always made the least sense to me. What a total waste.

Israel, funded by western powers, is occupying and genociding Palestine. It's pretty clear what's happening.

Shrek posted...

po you would have had more relevance if you instead said the proxy war the us is having with ukraine vs russia

The one doesn't negate the other. Both can be true.



agesboy posted...

Israel, funded by western powers, is occupying and genociding Palestine. It's pretty clear what's happening.

Palestinian-aligned terrorist groups, funded by radical Islamic groups and corrupt regional powers, attack and murder Israelis (and occasionally their own people) over the ideological belief that Israel shouldn't exist and has no right to survive. It's pretty clear what's happening.

Two can play that game!

Israel didn't exist before WW2 and draws its authority from the Bible, yet now control about 80-90% of the country. Even as a devil's advocate it's kinda weird for you to be defending them PO

agesboy posted...

Israel didn't exist before WW2 and draws its authority from the Bible, yet now control about 80-90% of the country. Even as a devil's advocate it's kinda weird for you to be defending them PO

Well, it did exist before WWII. It was just a very long time before it. The whole situation with the re-founding of Israel in 47' was pretty messed up, and there are a lot of fair arguments on both sides. The one thing that isn't really debated, is that Jerusalem and the surrounding lands have been in perpetual conflict for thousands of years. It's highly doubtful that things would be any better there if it never happened.
A lot of people don't know that Einstein was offered the presidency of Israel in 1952, but declined it. Makes you wonder what things would be like if he'd accepted. It probably wouldn't have been world changing, but it's still fun to speculate.

agesboy posted...

Israel, funded by western powers, is occupying and genociding Palestine. It's pretty clear what's happening.

It's WAY more complex than that though. The apparent root of it all is control over a region that has significance in the Bible. We all know it really has to do with money and power, as virtually every war does.

Ozmose posted...

A lot of people don't know that Einstein was offered the presidency of Israel in 1952, but declined it. Makes you wonder what things would be like if he'd accepted. It probably wouldn't have been world changing, but it's still fun to speculate.

Einstein was a brilliant scientist, but he was no politician (and some of the anecdotes of his personal life suggest he could be a bit of an asshole). I think he was probably very wise to decline the presidency.

faramir77 posted...

Of all the armed conflicts in the world, the one between Israel and Palestine has always made the least sense to me. What a total waste.

I mean, the Palestinians are basically stuck in a permanent prison with no way out. They have no national representation, as Palestine as a nation does not exist (and Israel is doing their very best to keep it that way). Yet the people who do de facto control them on a national level - Israel - give them no representation and only the barest minimum of governmental services.

As long as Israel continues to make itself an oppressor and occupier, the siren call of Hamas and the other jihadist groups in the region are going to find lots of willing listeners. When your alternative is wiling away your life in impoverished misery, striking back at the people who are keeping you that way - however futile a gesture it might be - seems like a pretty good idea. We've seen this over and over again in that region - Al-Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan, ISIS in Iraq and Syria, Hezbollah in Lebanon. These groups don't find recruits by making it seem really cool to die in a car bomb, they do it because the areas they recruit from are severely impoverished and they're the only ones who offer something that seems like stability, agency, and, most important of all, money. Put together an economically stable region with opportunities, especially for young men, and the prospect of dying to an Israeli bullet is going to seem a lot less enticing.

But it's not going to happen. This conflict is a direct result of Israel's continued rightward drift over the last several decades, and the unfortunate reality is all it's going to do is make Israel tack even further right and erode sympathy for the Palestinian cause within the one country that can meaningfully do something about it. Thousands of people are going to die, Israel is going to make life even more miserable for the Palestinians, that misery is going to breed a new generation of militancy, and we'll be right back here again in a decade or two. Maybe the sheer magnitude of the butcher's bill for this conflict and the failure of Netanyahu and his cronies to prevent it will cause Israel to reconsider their current course... but I highly doubt it.

agesboy posted...

Israel didn't exist before WW2 and draws its authority from the Bible, yet now control about 80-90% of the country. Even as a devil's advocate it's kinda weird for you to be defending them PO

And according to the Torah/Bible they weren't even the original inhabitants but committed genocide against the indigenous peoples of the region if I remember the bible correctly. So this idea that the Israelis were indigenous to the land is like me saying as a white american i am indigenous to the USA. Not saying the atrocities whites committed against the indigenous people is comparable to collateral damage that Israel commits in trying to fight terrorism. Just that the idea the Israelis are indigenous is a farce according to the bible/torah and that is what a lot of uber religious people suggest. That it is their land by birthright.

Hamas is a cancer that is ruining the Palestinian cause for a two state solution. I side with Israel, they are not perfect but are better than a terrorist ran country using civilians as shields and propaganda tools.

I feel like America should just confiscate Palestinians to America and maybe create a new state using portions of older states and call it Palestine or new Palestine. Palestinians get their homeland and Israel gets to remain a popular tourist destination for uber religious muslims, christians, jews, and a secular state.

darkknight109 posted...

Einstein was a brilliant scientist, but he was no politician (and some of the anecdotes of his personal life suggest he could be a bit of an asshole). I think he was probably very wise to decline the presidency.

I mean, the Palestinians are basically stuck in a permanent prison with no way out. They have no national representation, as Palestine as a nation does not exist (and Israel is doing their very best to keep it that way). Yet the people who do de facto control them on a national level - Israel - give them no representation and only the barest minimum of governmental services.

As long as Israel continues to make itself an oppressor and occupier, the siren call of Hamas and the other jihadist groups in the region are going to find lots of willing listeners. When your alternative is wiling away your life in impoverished misery, striking back at the people who are keeping you that way - however futile a gesture it might be - seems like a pretty good idea. We've seen this over and over again in that region - Al-Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan, ISIS in Iraq and Syria, Hezbollah in Lebanon. These groups don't find recruits by making it seem really cool to die in a car bomb, they do it because the areas they recruit from are severely impoverished and they're the only ones who offer something that seems like stability, agency, and, most important of all, money. Put together an economically stable region with opportunities, especially for young men, and the prospect of dying to an Israeli bullet is going to seem a lot less enticing.

But it's not going to happen. This conflict is a direct result of Israel's continued rightward drift over the last several decades, and the unfortunate reality is all it's going to do is make Israel tack even further right and erode sympathy for the Palestinian cause within the one country that can meaningfully do something about it. Thousands of people are going to die, Israel is going to make life even more miserable for the Palestinians, that misery is going to breed a new generation of militancy, and we'll be right back here again in a decade or two. Maybe the sheer magnitude of the butcher's bill for this conflict and the failure of Netanyahu and his cronies to prevent it will cause Israel to reconsider their current course... but I highly doubt it.

This is bullocks. People constantly compare Israelis to European colonizers or oppressors of minorities. It is a false comparison though. Sure there is some favoritism in treatment of Jewish people above other ethnic groups but it is hyperbole to compare it to an apartheid state because it is minor if so. There are jews of a variety of skin tones and backgrounds (yes including asian and black jews). You really have to try to be persecuted by the Israeli government.

The reason Palestinians are viewed so harshly by the Israelis is because Hamas. If Hamas didnt exist than expansions of the settlements would cease and there would possibly be a two state solution. Israelis are fine with peaceful palestinians and if anything I wouldnt call Israel racist just quasi-Imperialistic in that they take land after being agitated by terrorist groups. Completely different than the european colonists who solely had materialistic endeavors as well as a superiority complex.

There are good and bad people of all ethnicities backgrounds,etc but it is clear Hamas is the bad actor not the israeli government

agesboy posted...

Israel, funded by western powers, is occupying and genociding Palestine. It's pretty clear what's happening.

Indeed. True Justice sees what is right and wrong. Hamas is not right. But the terrorist organization The Israel is unequivocally in the wrong.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

The one doesn't negate the other. Both can be true.

Palestinian-aligned terrorist groups, funded by radical Islamic groups and corrupt regional powers, attack and murder Israelis (and occasionally their own people) over the ideological belief that Israel shouldn't exist and has no right to survive. It's pretty clear what's happening.

Two can play that game!

Two certainly can. But one is wrong. Unequivocally.

Devil_May_Cry posted...

This is bullocks. People constantly compare Israelis to European colonizers or oppressors of minorities. It is a false comparison though. Sure there is some favoritism in treatment of Jewish people above other ethnic groups but it is hyperbole to compare it to an apartheid state because it is minor if so. There are jews of a variety of skin tones and backgrounds (yes including asian and black jews). You really have to try to be persecuted by the Israeli government.

The reason Palestinians are viewed so harshly by the Israelis is because Hamas. If Hamas didnt exist than expansions of the settlements would cease and there would possibly be a two state solution. Israelis are fine with peaceful palestinians and if anything I wouldnt call Israel racist just quasi-Imperialistic in that they take land after being agitated by terrorist groups. Completely different than the european colonists who solely had materialistic endeavors as well as a superiority complex.

There are good and bad people of all ethnicities backgrounds,etc but it is clear Hamas is the bad actor not the israeli government

Absolute horseshit and misinformation tantamount to Trump's Big Lie. Hamas is the only thing keeping the Palestinian people alive.

TheJustice posted...

Absolute horseshit and misinformation tantamount to Trump's Big Lie. Hamas is the only thing keeping the Palestinian people alive.

You do realize Hamas has intentionally bombed civilians many, many times? I'd liken them to the hyper-radicalized factions of the IRA near the end if the troubles. They're one of those groups that may have started with a noble cause, but over time their sins far outweigh any virtues they once had.

Ozmose posted...

You do realize Hamas has intentionally bombed civilians many, many times? I'd liken them to the hyper-radicalized factions of the IRA near the end if the troubles. They're one of those groups that may have started with a noble cause, but over time their sins far outweigh any virtues they once had.

And how many dead civilians have The Israel created? Don't answer that. Let me show you.

https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/16516.jpeg

TheJustice posted...

And how many dead civilians have The Israel created? Don't answer that. Let me show you.

https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/16516.jpeg

"It's ok if we do because they did it too"

TheJustice posted...

And how many dead civilians have The Israel created? Don't answer that. Let me show you.

https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/16516.jpeg

I wasn't claiming Israel was innocent by any means. They most certainly are not. I was just saying Hamas isn't the virtuous group of freedom fighters some people play them off as. They've pretty much devolved into another group of zealot terrorists. Remember, they called the Taliban "freedom fighters" too during the Russian invasion. Look how they turned out.

Devil_May_Cry posted...

Sure there is some favoritism in treatment of Jewish people above other ethnic groups but it is hyperbole to compare it to an apartheid state because it is minor if so.

apartheid
noun
A policy or system of segregation or discrimination on grounds of race.

Israel has a law that says only Jews have national rights: https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-nation-state-law-bill-explained-apartheid-netanyahu-democracy

Israel routinely approves projects built for and by Jews, but overwhelmingly rejects building applications submitted by Arabs and Palestinians: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israel-rejects-98-of-palestinian-building-permit-requests-in-west-bank-s-area-c-1.8403807

...and some of those housing units that are built are "Jewish only", with non-Jewish Israelis barred from living there. This is entirely legal under Israeli law. https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-advances-plans-for-over-2100-new-settlement-homes/

Property law in Israel is heavily slanted to favour Jews over non-Jews, which includes allowing Jews to simply lay claim to Arab homes and forcibly evict the current occupants: https://www.ft.com/content/830e05ed-244c-4e9f-a7ac-265c41f79546

Israel routinely expropriates and demolishes housing and land in Jerusalem to make way for highways, "green space" and other "urban improvements"; curiously, these policies are wielded exclusively against Arab neighbourhoods: https://news.climate.columbia.edu/2016/06/22/land-and-conflict-in-east-jerusalem-the-role-of-urban-planning/

Israel has laws that allow it to demolish the homes of terrorists, but has only ever used those laws against Arabs; no Jewish Israeli terrorist's home has ever been subject to demolition: https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/analysis-is-demolishing-palestinian-terrorists-homes-but-not-jewish-ones-discrimination-467955

Israeli settlers regularly conduct "price tag" rampages against Palestinian villages, destroying Palestinian property and attacking and sometimes killing the inhabitants. The Israeli military rarely intervenes, unless the Palestinians fight back. Israeli settlers are almost never arrested or charged for these incidents: https://time.com/6289342/israel-palestinians-turmus-ayya-violence/

Please explain to me, in detail, how these policies do not constitute apartheid.

Devil_May_Cry posted...

The reason Palestinians are viewed so harshly by the Israelis is because Hamas. If Hamas didnt exist than expansions of the settlements would cease and there would possibly be a two state solution.

Hamas was founded in 1987.

Israeli settlements have existed and been in a state of active expansion since the 1970s.

Devil_May_Cry posted...

There are good and bad people of all ethnicities backgrounds,etc but it is clear Hamas is the bad actor not the israeli government

Both are awful and deserve one another. In a just world, the Israeli government and the wingnuts of Hamas would all be locked in a room and left to rot, while the civilians of both groups figured out their lives.

Muscles posted...

"It's ok if we do because they did it too"

It's more that Hamas is very obviously the lesser of two evils. Hamas should not be killing civilians. That's correct. To paint them as being the "bad guy" for killing civilians when Isreal has killed an order of magnitude more constitutes an utter failure to understand the situation. Hamas is bad, but that doesn't mean Palestine isn't overwhelmingly the victim of an oppressive apartheid state, one which the west continues to support out of some misguided notion that not doing so would be "anti-semitic."

agesboy posted...

Israel didn't exist before WW2 and draws its authority from the Bible, yet now control about 80-90% of the country. Even as a devil's advocate it's kinda weird for you to be defending them PO

Where do you think Jewish diaspora originally came from? Israel is more or less the area of the historical Judea, after the Jewish rebellions, the Romans renamed it Palistina as a way to separate them even more from their land, and expelled them. Even before WWII there was a movement to establish a national home for the Jewish diaspora, and after the holocaust, that movement gained a lot more traction. As far as Israel controlling so much of the land, that's what happens when Arab coalitions kept attacking them and losing in '48, '56, '67 and '73. The current Israeli government has been pretty awful to the Palestinians, but they've also had to fight for their survival in a region with countries that won't even recognize their right to exist and would just as soon exterminate them.

Golda Meir said it best "If the Arab lay down their arms there would no more war, but if Israel lays down its weapons there would be no more Israel."

DeathMagnetic80 posted...

Golda Meir said it best "If the Arab lay down their arms there would no more war, but if Israel lays down its weapons there would be no more Israel."

It's a bit disingenuous to make this comparison to Arabia when when Palestine has spent the last half century being erased.

Fuck Hamas, obviously, but it's certainly not a surprise that Palestinians support them. If they're gonna get victimized with no recourse they'll lash out just to hurt Israel, because they're screwed either way.

agesboy posted...

Israel didn't exist before WW2

To be fair, neither did Palestine.

https://twitter.com/Cudalla/status/1709671434057117767

CyborgSage00x0 posted...

To be fair, neither did Palestine.

Depends on your definition of "Palestine".

There has been a place called Palestine (or regional variations thereof) more or less uninterrupted since Antiquity, with the term first showing up in Egyptian records in the 12th century BC. That said, was there ever an independent country named Palestine pre-WW1? No, not really - not unless you go way back in history (and even then that's questionable, given that the idea of "nations" is a relatively modern one).

darkknight109 posted...

Depends on your definition of "Palestine".

There has been a place called Palestine (or regional variations thereof) more or less uninterrupted since Antiquity, with the term first showing up in Egyptian records in the 12th century BC. That said, was there ever an independent country named Palestine pre-WW1? No, not really - not unless you go way back in history (and even then that's questionable, given that the idea of "nations" is a relatively modern one).

Bingo. There's long been a regional name for the area, but never any sort of nation or even "Palestinian" identity until Israel. Essentially, to be Palestinian now mean "people who live in the Gaza area who aren't Jewish."

UPDATE: Mia Khalifa has been fired from Playboy for expressing support for Hamas

CyborgSage00x0 posted...

Bingo. There's long been a regional name for the area, but never any sort of nation or even "Palestinian" identity until Israel. Essentially, to be Palestinian now mean "people who live in the Gaza area who aren't Jewish."

This is kind of the consequence of segregationist policies though, it's like saying there was no African American identity until it evolved as a response to America. By creating an in-group you create an out-group simultaneously.

The "freedom fighters" decapitated at least 40 babies, so far

https://www.businessinsider.com/idf-says-hamas-decapitated-babies-in-israel-2023-10

darkknight109 posted...

Depends on your definition of "Palestine".

There has been a place called Palestine (or regional variations thereof) more or less uninterrupted since Antiquity, with the term first showing up in Egyptian records in the 12th century BC. That said, was there ever an independent country named Palestine pre-WW1? No, not really - not unless you go way back in history (and even then that's questionable, given that the idea of "nations" is a relatively modern one).

Israel existed since antiquity in the same sense Palestine has. See tweet below.

Blightzkrieg posted...

UPDATE: Mia Khalifa has been fired from Playboy for expressing support for Hamas

Good. And here's a very based Muslim man responding to her historically inaccurate BS.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1711555944755478998

Blightzkrieg posted...

This is kind of the consequence of segregationist policies though

Not untrue. A big flaw was either not making the entire area Israel, and telling everyone there to either accept that or leave (obviously not a super great approach), or formally make the non-Israel land a new nation of Palestine when Israel was made...or cede Gaza to Egypt or something. Leaving it up in the air, either way, was a mistake.

Blightzkrieg posted...

UPDATE: Mia Khalifa has been fired from Playboy for expressing support for Hamas

I always knew she was a good one. Good for her for being true to her beliefs even in the face of adversity. And shame on Playboy. Didn't know those tools were still in business.

streamofthesky posted...

The "freedom fighters" decapitated at least 40 babies, so far

https://www.businessinsider.com/idf-says-hamas-decapitated-babies-in-israel-2023-10

I saw that report earlier. Disgusting.There was another with photos of about a dozen people they gunned down at a bus stop. They killed like 260 people at that music festival as well.
I don't understand how so many people are still defending them. All they did in their attack was massacre civilians. No strategic targets, just mass slaughter. There is absolutely no justification for that.

Ozmose posted...

I saw that report earlier. Disgusting.There was another with photos of about a dozen people they gunned down at a bus stop. They killed like 260 people at that music festival as well.
I don't understand how so many people are still defending them. All they did in their attack was massacre civilians. No strategic targets, just mass slaughter. There is absolutely no justification for that.

The same people who will defend and minimize Hamas seeking out the most vulnerable weakest victims possible to massacre as brutally as they can while incessantly calling Israel evil for the collateral damage of their air strikes because Hamas intentionally sets up near civilians...

Are in the Ukraine topics pointing out how Ukraine focuses on dismantling Russian military objectives and have no problem with them blowing up civilian infrastructure used for military purposes like the bridge causing civilian deaths because it's a necessity of war...
...and contrasting it with how Russia intentionally fires their artillery at civilian targets for no military gain, only to spread terror and death.

And not once do they experience cognitive dissonance.

Ozmose posted...

I saw that report earlier. Disgusting.There was another with photos of about a dozen people they gunned down at a bus stop. They killed like 260 people at that music festival as well.
I don't understand how so many people are still defending them. All they did in their attack was massacre civilians. No strategic targets, just mass slaughter. There is absolutely no justification for that.

Well they plan to kill every single Jew, world wide, so why would they care for strategic targets? They can't currently just take over Israel, so the only goal to achieve is kill as many as you can before the world forces Israel to have a "cease-fire".

It literally doesn't matter at all to Hamas if you kill them or there people. They win if you kill them and they win if they kill you.

Ozmose posted...

I don't understand how so many people are still defending them.

Nobody's defending Hamas. People are defending Palestine, which has overwhelmingly been victimized by thoroughly oppressive Israeli policies. Hamas is understandable, being the manifestation of decades of impotent frustration over said oppression and the desire to lash out at it in any way possible, but everyone agrees they're still bad. Hamas being bad just doesn't justify apartheid.

Crazy how now people think its justifiable to kill incident civilians in retaliation. This just feels like a losing effort

https://twitter.com/Outkick/status/1711402220128731611?t=7j645jv0HLSXMBcWp_JZEw&s=19

teddy241 posted...

Crazy how now people think its justifiable to kill incident civilians in retaliation. This just feels like a losing effort

No one thinks that. It's more like throwing their hands up in frustration because this is such a stupid, no-win situation.

Israel has created an open-air concentration camp and is responsible for so many atrocities with no intention of ever making the situation better, and use collective punishment on a largely innocent population of oppressed people.

That sparks the kind of situation where terrorism thrives. The conditions that are driving the terrorism get worse, the palestinians get screwed every time they lash out, and people somehow do shockedpikachu.jpg when the opulent concert next to the open-air prison gets terrorism'd and we get a new round of "poor plucky israel, better send them more missiles for their disproportionate responses and unrestrained civilian-killing".

It's the dumbest fucking cycle being perpetuated by the dumbest fucking people.

Yep, pretty much. Understanding why Hamas is retaliating does mean anyone thinks the retaliation in question is justifiable. It just means understanding why it's happening.

Does Israel need to completely lay down their arms and let Palestine steamroll them? Of course not. They do, however, need to stop being such oppressive assholes. Palestinians join and support Hamas because they're desperate and pissed off. Significantly fewer people would be desperate and pissed off if they weren't on the wrong side of an apartheid state. There's still inevitably going to be a lot of "the Jews shouldn't even be here" sentiment as a consequence of how Israel came about, because such shenanigans are never going to go over well, but Israel can and should be doing significantly more to generate good will instead of actively making life as terrible as they can for Palestinians.

Should Israel exist? Probably not, it only exists because the west wanted an ally in the middle east and they've mostly been terrible, but that doesn't justify what hamas is doing. Their anger is justified, sure, but not their actions. I'm not sure why its either you support Israel or hamas like you can't think both are terrible (even if hamas is clearly worse)

adjl posted...

Yep, pretty much. Understanding why Hamas is retaliating does mean anyone thinks the retaliation in question is justifiable. It just means understanding why it's happening.

This exactly.

One of my constant frustrations when entities like Hamas (or Al Qaeda or ISIS or any other number of radicalist organizations) get brought up is that some people either can't or refuse to understand the distinction between an explanation and a justification/rationalization. Saying Hamas exists and is doing the things that it's doing because Israel has oppressed and marginalized the Palestinians for decades is not the same thing as saying what they are doing is just or right or excusable. Understanding and stating the reason for an atrocity does not somehow make it not an atrocity.

And, as others have mentioned, it is entirely possible for both sides to be in the wrong on a conflict (not necessarily equally wrong, just wrong), and that is very much the case here. Both sides have murdered and tortured innocents in horrific numbers. Both sides refuse to hold their worst elements to account. And so we have a war between asshole terrorists and an asshole government, and no one will benefit at all from this fight except the extremists.

darkknight109 posted...

And, as others have mentioned, it is entirely possible for both sides to be in the wrong on a conflict (not necessarily equally wrong, just wrong), and that is very much the case here. Both sides have murdered and tortured innocents in horrific numbers. Both sides refuse to hold their worst elements to account. And so we have a war between asshole terrorists and an asshole government, and no one will benefit at all from this fight except the extremists.

Unfortunately everyone nowadays disregards "both sides" and you have to take a side or you are automatically considered wrong even if it's true.

I am traumatized from the Shani Louk video and I really, really wish I could unsee it. I hope she's alive but I doubt it :'(

In this conflict there is no "bad guy". Bad guy implies that the opposition is mostly good. This is a conflict that is funded by large powers that mostly affects civilians.

More Palestinian civilians have died from Israel's hands than vice versa. This is a result largely of a power differential. If Hamas could, they would kill many many many more Israelis. But that doesn't change the fact that the Palestinians have had to endure being in a cage, burying their dead while the world watches. However, I ALSO don't expect sympathy when civilians are targeted, because the civilians aren't the people that caused this problem. If some country retaliated against the u.s., even if it was justified, if it targeted civilians I would not say... "fair, next".

This conflict has been going on so long because it is a nuanced conflict. If it was easy to solve, it likely would have been solved, but it is not, so it continues.

AdviceMan posted...

This conflict has been going on so long because it is a nuanced conflict. If it was easy to solve, it likely would have been solved, but it is not, so it continues.

The nuances make it difficult to completely solve, but there's a substantial amount of middle ground between where it is now and a complete solution, and you don't need to deal with much nuance to find it. If the dominant power (currently Israel) were focused on peacekeeping and mediation instead of self-serving subjugation and genocide, conditions would be significantly better for Palestinians and Hamas wouldn't be able to gain nearly as much traction among them, cutting down both their membership and the number of Palestinians willing to shelter/tolerate them. The problem won't completely go away because of the core ideological conflict and the difficulties of stamping out tiny pockets of insurgency, but a very substantial portion of the suffering can be placed on Israel's shoulders for their refusal to use their current position of power to improve the situation.

Basically, Israel has the power to make things significantly better, and they're choosing not to. That's something they need to be held accountable for. Holding Israel accountable for that also does not in any way preclude holding Hamas accountable for executing babies, as much as people seem bent on believing that saying "Israel is bad" means saying "Hamas is good."

AdviceMan posted...

the civilians aren't the people that caused this problem.

This is a very dangerous road to go down, so I don't plan on pursuing it too much further, but it is worth noting that Netenyahu has been democratically elected by Israeli civilians that would rather see Palestine wiped out than do anything to constructively solve the problems. If memory serves, Netenyahu has made several moves to make it harder to vote him out, and it's likely enough that most Israeli voters didn't actually choose this outcome that genuinely and collectively pinning the blame on them for it isn't altogether sensible, but I still feel like there's room to hesitate before completely removing all blame for the situation from Israeli citizens. In a democracy, political will involves more than just the decisions of leadership.

Of course, that's largely an academic distinction and doesn't mean that any of those voters deserve to have Hamas behead their babies. I'm saying this more as a matter of saying that they have the power to do something to fix the situation, which their voting choices to date haven't necessarily done. That's something they should keep in mind moving forward. Even more broadly than that, as voters in countries that are lending support to Israel, we have some power to effect positive change as well by voting for support that's contingent on more of a peacekeeping approach instead of this retaliatory one. This isn't a problem that's strictly isolated to one government and one terrorist organization. Many, many other people have some potential to influence it.