Board 8 > I'm watching the Fate series for the first time. And I recall...

(+) Yeah! (+)

CERTAIN PEOPLE on this message board many years ago trying to tell me that Lancer and Archer could go toe to toe with Dragonball Z characters back in the day

Y'ALL WERE SOME LIARS!!!!

Anyway the series is SO GOOD. I'm almost done with Fate/Zero. I am NOT watching the older FS/N series, but gonna do Unlimited Blade Works then the Heaven's Feel movies. Don't know about anything after that.

Absolutely love this series!

FGO has done some powerscaling since I guess?

Gilgamesh can uh do some things as seen in the Strange Fake special.

I am positive FGO wasn't out back when the MPFC shenanigans were taking place on board 8. However, the Dragonball chars have powerscaled too since then.

voltch I hope you're doing well btw. Trying not to bring up Chelsea but you know I have to LOL

voltch posted...

FGO has done some powerscaling since I guess?

It has, but I'd say very few could plausibly be argued against DBZ characters even then. Maybe Space Ishtar because the Servant Universe stuff nearly runs on jokes? (Servant in question is quite literally a galaxy and was completely immune to attacks that were conceptually smaller than a galaxy.) shit like that.

But like, on a more serious Fate/Nasuverse level you'd have to basically jump to ORT and even that feels like it'd be... questionable in a DBZ fight? Though it's also rife with MPFC-esque bullshit arguments (I say lovingly because I would make said arguments on occasion) like "if the battlefield is Earth it has no weakness." and "it has no concept of death."

I'm trying to remember some of the arguments for Fate speed feats but I think they were probably from the VN saying things like "so and so moves at mach 2" and then extrapolating from there. It's all foggy because it was well over a decade ago but I knew it was bullshit then, and after watching Saber vs. Lancer it just jumped out at me how much it's bullshit now lmao

20+ episodes of Fate Zero and the series is well clear of Dragonball from a writing standpoint though I just want to clarify. Kiritsugu the mf GOAT

well db super did introduce goku getting blasted by a simple gun because his guard was down. cell saga/late dbz era saiyans didn't seem that vulnerable

Yeah DBS is all over the place. It has that, but it also has weakened Goku getting himself out of a black hole by powering up lol

I think a lot of it revolved around some of the wackier conceptual shit that isn't as present in F/Z.

Like you have FSN's Gae Bolg which explicitly reverses causality so that if it is used it automatically strike the heart regardless of where it was even aimed. (i.e. instead of "I stab at the target -> I pierced their heart" it goes "I pierced their heart -> glhf reality you have to invent a reason why that happened lol") unless they have a very high Luck rank or other specific conceptual defense.

And also stuff like Battle Continuation which lets him continue to fight for a while even when he's mortally wounded and really should be dead. (Though I'd argue that has limits that MPFC arguments likely ignored lol)

Thorn posted...

Like you have FSN's Gae Bolg which explicitly reverses causality so that if it is used it automatically strike the heart regardless of where it was even aimed. (i.e. instead of "I stab at the target -> I pierced their heart" it goes "I pierced their heart -> glhf reality you have to invent a reason why that happened lol") unless they have a very high Luck rank or other specific conceptual defense

hard to say if nasu was more full of shit for writing this or the fans for echoing it

lancer doesn't kill a single servant in F/SN

GAE BOLG, THAT'S THE ONE

Fuckin Causality hax. Oh my god that shit was SO frustrating to argue against.

I wish I'd watched Fate Zero when it came out so that the people arguing on Lancer's behalf could try to justify him beating... fuck i don't even remember who, could try to justify it after that!

I know, but MPFC!

Lancer has some excuses for that fact but yeah lol.

Yeah. I've always felt servants were more Devil May Cry level than DBZ level. Like maybe the jobber DBZ guys like uh Yamcha or something. I dunno.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L02aPFAhTCk

The real Q, has your favourite servant made it in the Anniv video.

if it was most HANDSOME fictional character then Lancer solos all the DB chars, but yeah lol

Is this gonna have spoilers, voltch

Fate/Zero Lancer is not Fate/Stay Night Lancer lol.

F/Z Lancer is Diarmuid
F/SN one is Cu Chulainn

Completely different Servants with different weapons/abilities. F/SN Lancer is definitely stronger. Not strong enough to really belong in a DBZ fight conversation but he's the one with causality hax.

Most of the time the Servants are different between series but they all go by the Class Names to hide their identity (because if you know which hero you're going against you can have some ideas of their abilities/weaknesses.)

Lopen posted...

Yeah. I've always felt servants were more Devil May Cry level than DBZ level. Like maybe the jobber DBZ guys like uh Yamcha or something. I dunno.

I mean if were talking peak Yamcha (Cell Games) then even he should be well above their level.

I think you have a misconception about Lancer Extha. The one in F/Z is not the one in FSN/UBW. I don't quite remember how strong the F/Z Lancer was but he didn't last very long against Saber still using her invisible sealed sword.

I don't think FSN Lancer can kill Buu or Cell because of their regen but I don't see how he can't kill Goku or Vegeta.

I think it's just kinda hard to compare stuff like Fate where a lot of the people just kinda have their own rules, to stuff like DBZ where you can watch a guy blow up a planet. One's more conceptually impressive, one's more visually impressive, and they're kinda different types of power and combat worth. Light reality bending versus planet busting, y'know?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9nHP6aRsjE

Anniv videos don't have story spoilers, they're just promotional vids with servants looking cool.

i mean to be fair f/z lancer is essentially a copy/pasta of f/sn. they literally look identical and are both irish lol

in fact don't both even die by suicide

AriaOfBolo posted...

Light reality bending versus planet busting, y'know?

it'd be like a fight between Ipkiss and Bro-*is shot*

ExThaNemesis posted...

Kiritsugu the mf GOAT

This topic was worth opening just for this

(Though, admittedly, by the end of F/Z I only thought Kiritsugu was third best in the series. But I'll let you judge that for yourself)

GranzonEx posted...

I don't think FSN Lancer can kill Buu or Cell because of their regen but I don't see how he can't kill Goku or Vegeta.

Isn't his Lance specifically anti regeneration I'm not sure why that's the line for you

Kiritsugu sucks

Lopen posted...

Isn't his Lance specifically anti regeneration I'm not sure why that's the line for you

In my mind Buu and Cell don't need a heart to survive. So if you blow a hole in their chest they can still fight. Saiyans can't go on fighting if they're missing vital organs like that. And it's been established Goku can die to heart disease so his heart isn't invulnerable.

Edit. And before people bring up blowing up the planet. I'm pretty sure Cell and Buu had to charge for a bit before they could output enough ki to destroy a planet. So there's more than enough time to bring out GB.

To me it's

Hypothetically GameFAQs Lancer brings out Gae Bolg immediately and can maybe win

F/SN Lancer doesn't open with his ultimate attack because they never do (DBZ don't either but they out parameter him too hard) and gets wiped out too hard in the opening exchange to use it.

If I were to take a stab at it, I'd say that hypothetically FSN Lancer could kill a Goku or Vegeta simply because "getting stabbed in the heart with a spear that prevents you from healing/regen the wound" genuinely wins you a lot of fights.

Conversely, most DBZ characters probably could speedblitz and vaporize FSN Lancer before he can activate it (again, hypothetically, I doubt most would behave this way) - and vaporizing is key here, if they "just" punch a hole through his chest he could probably still pull it off with Battle Continuation and win-by-dying-last and/or draw.

So I think it really comes down to how the DBZ characters try to kill him. Because they can get a nasty surprise if they aren't thorough enough with it.

I think Z is still within reach for many servants in terms of physical feats. Most normal people (like Yamcha and Tien) in Z could still sorta see the fights happening. I don't think the level of physical stats is wide enough for any Z fighters to completely flatten Lancer. Maybe it's just DBZ being old anime so the feats don't come across as impressive.

GranzonEx posted...

I think Z is still within reach for many servants in terms of physical feats. Most normal people (like Yamcha and Tien) in Z could still sorta see the fights happening. I don't think the level of physical stats is wide enough for any Z fighters to completely flatten Lancer. Maybe it's just DBZ being old anime so the feats don't come across as impressive.

Lets be clear about something. Yamcha and Tien are chumps compared to Saiyans, but they (especially Tien) are by no means normal people. Not even in original DB.

If we want to talk about normal people, well normal people were unable to follow these fights as early as Krillin vs Roshi at the 21st Budokai.

Going off just how the HGW kickstarted in FSF, what tier of feats is that NP at?

That's just the Gil and Enkidu having fun in the desert, but it's not too bad.

Speed feats in DBZ aren't very impressive and it never made much sense. Even in the Buu saga Buu still takes time to fly around destroying stuff. Speed feats in DBZ is like the typical shounen anime trope of a guy popping up behind an enemy and punching him. Again it's not displayed very impressively. Are they faster than Bankai Ichigo? They can punch harder than him but would they speedblitz him? I see Lancer keeping up with Ichigo.

And by normal people I mean the weaker Z fighters. Mr Satan and the people watching on TV are obviously not going to see anything lol.

Fate/Zero is in my top 5 for anime for sure. Kiritsugu is one of my favorite anime characters for sure. Great stuff, glad you're enjoying it!

Read the VN. It's much better than anything else.

Ok but........ GILGAMESH SOLOS

I am the bone of my sword

This seems like a good topic to ask, what's the watch order for Fate anime stuff?

Waluigi1 posted...

This seems like a good topic to ask, what's the watch order for Fate anime stuff?

Zero -> Unlimited Blade Works -> Heavens Feel

Mostly it doesn't matter that much though. You can go UBW -> HF -> Zero if you want. Just make sure you watch HF after UBW.

I wanna say I remember an argument about whether or not Lancer's Gae Bolg could pierce the heart of the One Piece character who was made of light. Would it just go through and impact nothing because it's made of light or would it pierce his true heart or something.

I don't think I even knew Heavens Feel got made into an anime. What about all the other stuff? Aren't there like a hundred spin offs?

Xuxon posted...

Read the VN. It's much better than anything else.

while the VN has by far the highest highs of anything, i'd also say it's way less accessible due to its length and some really shitty writing. like you'll actually have to read 5 minutes of text about how gae bolg reverses causality, and then it'll fail to do so

AllHeDoesIsWin posted...

I wanna say I remember an argument about whether or not Lancer's Gae Bolg could pierce the heart of the One Piece character who was made of light. Would it just go through and impact nothing because it's made of light or would it pierce his true heart or something.

That was Admiral Kizaru.

Biggest issue with the anime is that it really worsens Shirou's character, and yeah the highs don't hit as high.

If you're strictly watching it then yeah F/Z -> UBW -> HF is pretty much the intended order.

If you're willing to read the VN though I personally highly recommend that as it greatly enhanced my appreciation for F/Z having experienced the VN first. Watching UBW and HF after that is just a cherry on top. But that's just how it was for me! The fact that this is a highly debated topic kinda tells you that there's several ways to go about watching Fate.

Waluigi1 posted...

I don't think I even knew Heavens Feel got made into an anime. What about all the other stuff? Aren't there like a hundred spin offs?

Lots of the spinoffs aren't that great. Generally, you can watch them in any order, since they're all different continuities, but it's best to watch the originals first so you have a basic understanding of how things work.

Ah ok. Any of the spin offs really worth it?

Fate/Grand Order is both the best (being an actually great story and for better or worse the core driver of this entire franchise since its creation) and the worst (BEING ALSO an absolutely disgusting gacha I've personally abandoned and would warn anyone from starting at this point.)

Fate/Apocrypha has some really high highs and some really painful lows.

Fate/Extra is pretty sweet but probably feels a bit clunky by today's standards - also has (reportedly) a vastly superior sequel that's been stuck in fan translation hell for a decade or more.

Most everything else falls under the "watch/play/read if you're head over heels and NEED more Fate" category IMO. So uh, it's a mixed bag even among the best of them, I'd say! We do have the Strange Fake anime coming out soon, and that's supposed to be a great story. There's also Samurai Remnant, a new game coming out this month that looks pretty sweet.

I am just so anti VNs that it would be so difficult for me to sit through it. I don't want to have to click and make decisions for this. I just want the story presented to me like an anime.