Board 8 > Star Trek Mafia - Topic 12: There are Four Lights!

(+) Yeah! (+)

PunishedBen posted...

Yeah I dont know what to do anymore. Now the scum team is just offended every time i ask a question. I ask a question so that they cant sit back and hide until the game ends. They would not be posting today at all if i didnt keep asking for repeat answers to questions

The problem is you keep asking questions that have literally already been answered. What is the point of asking a question four times in a row other than to fake activity? Like if you've run out of avenues to go down, then say, "Hey I don't think there's much else I can dig into here, let's talk about voting" rather than pretending to scum hunt by asking questions that will only serve to frustrate people who have already typed up posts to them. Honesty would be town motivated, no?

EDumey posted...

Do you remember Ben, when you said there was no scum equity in Ctes claiming Jack instead of sitting on his Vig claim, and I showed that was flawed because he very much had scum equity in claiming something that allowed him to move? How he hid the fact that he was the one who bus drove JC's scan when we argued about it for multiple days straight and ignored mentioning anything about it when Ulti was saying, "There's no way Bus Driver and my role exist in this game together" but was content to sit there and say nothing? How there was only one kill N1 and we just have to assume that Ulti blocked the scum kill, even though there is definitely scum equity in scum Ctes to try and set himself up in a semi-cleared status after scum's star player Chris was lynched D1?

And say Ctes is Town Jack. Did he do anything wrong? Anything at all? Assume innocent until proven guilty first. Why would he reveal day 2 that he's jack if he has one more power under his belt?

EDumey posted...

when we argued about it for multiple days straight and ignored mentioning anything about it when Ulti was saying, "There's no way Bus Driver and my role exist in this game together" but was content to sit there and say nothing?

Everything here is a lie. Is this when we throw "you obviously haven't read the game" lines at each other?

EDumey posted...

even though there is definitely scum equity in scum Ctes to try and set himself up in a semi-cleared status after scum's star player Chris was lynched D1?

I know I am informed and all but trying to attack me using wifom and "but you could have been scum killing town vanilla Death to clear yourself" makes so goddamn little sense that I would anyone that desperate to attack anyone must be scum that can't make a case but we had confirmed town doing this so what the hell do I know.

Poor Death is probably and understandably mostly mad at me but it must alao be frustrating for him that his unfortunate death couldn't even seem to be used to game solve.

PunishedBen posted...

I scum hunt by town clearing everyone else first. So that's just a more personal answer. Scum dont slip that often. Especially when sitting back

Also, this again doesn't address the fact that you tried to claim I haven't done anything. You are avoiding taking responsibility for that lie.

EDumey posted...

The problem is you keep asking questions that have literally already been answered. What is the point of asking a question four times in a row other than to fake activity? Like if you've run out of avenues to go down, then say, "Hey I don't think there's much else I can dig into here, let's talk about voting" rather than pretending to scum hunt by asking questions that will only serve to frustrate people who have already typed up posts to them. Honesty would be town motivated, no?

I'm only asking them because they're not being fully answered or I want more. Scum is trying to do the bare mininum in anaylsis i feel.

Han or Lea have never ever ever ever ever ever ever once questioned what happens if i am town. Or what if i am town now. EVER

You have done anything yet but there's still time. Lynch a scum?

I'll admit I'm being unnecessarily mean. But you ask me whats so problematic and mention arguing that Wallz is scum all game....that right there is a problematic

Also Chris being brought up as scum's star player is also kinda BS and again, if confirmed town hadn't said it I might also believe that cannot ever be said it good faith. Must people here knows Chris gers policy lynched if he's alive late game. Must importantly Chris himself knows how likely it is.

It's a huge part of why I don't think bussing Chris is a big deal.

Ben, you haven't played in a way that has Toen equity. You haven't approached either day without a plan in mind - it's not solving, it's just painting a picture.

If you are Town at this point, I'll be flabbergasted. Especially because your Town clearing is just... Wrong.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Also Chris being brought up as scum's star player is also kinda BS and again, if confirmed town hadn't said it I might also believe that cannot ever be said it good faith. Must people here knows Chris gers policy lynched if he's alive late game. Must importantly Chris himself knows how likely it is.

It's a huge part of why I don't think bussing Chris is a big deal.

I should mention in regards to my Sultan read, I only DONT THINK scum buddy Sultan tries to catch Chris on a lie about his personal life because...Sultan is too nice for that

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Ben, you haven't played in a way that has Toen equity. You haven't approached either day without a plan in mind - it's not solving, it's just painting a picture.

If you are Town at this point, I'll be flabbergasted. Especially because your Town clearing is just... Wrong.

Which town clear of mine is wrong?

ctesjbuvf posted...

Everything here is a lie. Is this when we throw "you obviously haven't read the game" lines at each other?

Where is the lie? Did Ulti not make arguments that bus driver and his role couldn't exist in the same game, but you claimed Vig instead of bus driver?
Did we not have multiple days of arguing about Redirector/Driver because of JC's claim before you decided to breadcrumb and then claim Jack?

Because both of those things happened, and is not a lie.

Ctes, do you agree if the Death kill is WIFOM to consider you scum, then it is also WIFOM for Ben to town clear you for it?
I'm not saying you're scum because you shot Death, I'm saying you're scum because I can't understand the town viewpoint for your actions. I think as a Vig, Death was a bad shot, which you admitted in hindsight that you agreed with, but not at the time of your shot. I think the way you claimed was anti-town. And I think the way you claimed has scum equity.
This is no different from saying that I have a read from the way people have made arguments against other people are scum, because I don't see the town perspective for doing so, and do see the scum equity in doing so.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Ben, you haven't played in a way that has Toen equity. You haven't approached either day without a plan in mind - it's not solving, it's just painting a picture.

If you are Town at this point, I'll be flabbergasted. Especially because your Town clearing is just... Wrong.

No Han, my reads did change. Mostly on Dumey, on Sultan. And JC became more town pretty quickly. And Wallz was more town eventually but not until the end of the day

PunishedBen posted...

Here's some very loose reads based on things I remember or just saw recently on the last few pages.

ctes - TOWN. I don't believe yet that scum makes an intentional kill on death and has one of them claim it. Very possible but I'll believe it till protection flips.

EDumey - TOWN. I like the way he tried to be friends with BCT. Also remember as scum he waited till the last second to claim and this game first post he wanted to claim. That's quite a change.

3- Han. SCUM? Unless literally he is the one who got protected last night. Very possible as well and I'm about to be very wrong.

4- JC - LEAN TOWN. Has motion Detector role going for him. Don't know much else about his game

5- Lea - SCUM? I need to go back to the Chris lynch and see who really led it. Lea might have that going for her.

7- Sultan - SCUM? Haven't been paying attention to anything from him this game besides the very safe for scum drunk role. Dependent on JC being town.

8- UltimaterializerX - TOWN. I like that near the end of day he brought up reasons to prove BCT's innocence. I think BCT was an easy setup for the next day mislynch and anyone who took him out of their POE I like.

9- wallmasterz - LEAN TOWN. I remember liking him early because of how smoothly he seemed to integrate himself into the game for a first time playing with us. Could just be really good at being scum.

And do I really think a dream team of Lea, Han, And Chris is possible and they did day 1 that badly? Maybe. That's probably the first thing I should go read.

PunishedBen posted...

Which town clear of mine is wrong?

Your lack of clearing me, tbh.

PunishedBen posted...

You have done anything yet but there's still time. Lynch a scum?

I'm fucking trying. I think you're scum. I didn't get the lynch I wanted yesterday because of JC and Sultan.

But I even have taken the time to understand your viewpoint and honestly consider Han as scum. You may not see it because every interaction you've had with me today has been hostile because of the way you frame accusations with misinformation constantly, but I even just extended an olive branch in saying, "This Han vs Ben situation is sticky, let's go to Ctes instead because it seems like a lot of people are agreeing there instead of being on opposite sides of drawn battle lines."

In retrospect I do not think the dream team of Han, Chris, and lea did day 1 badly at all. Just look at them now.

Like, your thesis is "Chris, Lea, and Han all did very poorly".

I'll keep that in mind anytime you get Scum lynched from now on. Ben is just playing Scum poorly

Haha, ninja'd

W/e Ben

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Your lack of clearing me, tbh.

that's it then?

The lie is that you said I ignored it or didn't mention it. I argued against it not being able to exist when Ulti kept saying that.

I claimed when the discussion about redirection was affected what people thought of the game state to a point where it outweighed the advantage of scum possibly thinking they would have to play around it. The first day everyone was dead set on Isquen anyways. Just like Sultan did you're also way overshooting how much it was being discussed. I refuse to believe you can't understand the town equity in hiding information after you just lost a game because Han and I refused to elaborate why we knew each other was town and continued to lie about it.

I already explained some days ago, that what I meant by it being a bad shot in hindsight was just that he flipped town, not that I should have seen it, I felt good about it at the time. Not to say it isn't fair to say I should have seen it, but that was not what I was trying to say myself.

I'm going back through old topics and have a specific question for Sultan.

What are your current thoughts on 3 vs 4 and the possibility of an independent?

EDumey posted...

"This Han vs Ben situation is sticky, let's go to Ctes instead because it seems like a lot of people are agreeing there instead of being on opposite sides of drawn battle lines."

That is siding with Han though. Han even wanted to leave a vote on Ctes last night

Lets do this.

I'll let someone else tell me who to vote for. As long as they can tell me who to vote for in the Pool of Han, Lea, Dumey, I will do it. They cant all be town right?

I guess mainly I'm looking for people's suggestions. But I want to remove any notion that I'm trying to control the game myself here. Like, I am, because I think its neccissary. But we HAVE to work together to beat scum here in a 3V4 scenario so I cant do it alone.

Anyone want to tell me who to lynch in this pool?

No, it's siding with me. Also with Sultan. And IIRC also with JC, though I don't remember his most recent thoughts on Ctes.

If I were to side with you, that would lead me to lynch Lea, which I've already explained is pretty far down my priority list.

I am removing you and Han from the list of influences entirely. That leads me to Ctes.

No rush or anything either because we have 2 hours left

PunishedBen posted...

Lets do this.

I'll let someone else tell me who to vote for. As long as they can tell me who to vote for in the Pool of Han, Lea, Dumey, I will do it. They cant all be town right?

I guess mainly I'm looking for people's suggestions. But I want to remove any notion that I'm trying to control the game myself here. Like, I am, because I think its neccissary. But we HAVE to work together to beat scum here in a 3V4 scenario so I cant do it alone.

Anyone want to tell me who to lynch in this pool?

Wow great bargain, "I will jump onto any of these three town lynches. Just tell me who I'll actually gain any amount of traction on."

(And of course we all know that if no one wants to propose an alternative, my vote is on Han today)

PunishedBen posted...

That is siding with Han though. Han even wanted to leave a vote on Ctes last night

This is also deliberately lying.

I'll give you a return offer Ben. Pick one of Ctes, Sultan, or Ben, and I'll join you on any of those lynches. Wow!

EDumey posted...

Wow great bargain, "I will jump onto any of these three town lynches. Just tell me who I'll actually gain any amount of traction on."

If you think those two are town and you think Ive only ever had town in my sights, then we will never work together. So stop acting like you'd work with me. Lmeowa

HanOfTheNekos posted...

This is also deliberately lying.

But you did vote him. TWICE

Ben's perspective is that this game had an absolutely STACKED scum team of Chris, Han, Lea, Dumey, and we chose to bus Chris D1, instead of letting him get lynched naturally later in the game from his expected policy lynch for being alive too long. Instead of trying to steamroll the game by just mislynching what, three in a row?

If you guys are going to invoke WIFOM arguments of "Scum Ctes would never shoot Death to set himself up in a semi-confirm claim!" than I'm also going to engage in WIFOM arguments to say there's no possible way that four man scum team decides to bus Chris D1.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

A truce.

I'm not Scum. D1 is awash with evidence towards that. But even if I were, there would be at least one other.

Make them your target. Or if two more Scum left, make them your target.

And my vote... Disappears

I had to make a damn deal with him before he would even unvote.

I'm tempted to put my vote down now, but ironically, I would like Sultan to show back up and reconfirm that he wants his vote there still before making an action. >_>

He's not gonna miss another deadline, is he?

PunishedBen posted...

And say Ctes is Town Jack. Did he do anything wrong? Anything at all? Assume innocent until proven guilty first. Why would he reveal day 2 that he's jack if he has one more power under his belt?

I dont think you answered this question Dumey.

I think it's another ridiculous stance to just say let's ignore Ben/Han because of battle lines.

Do you think it's town/town Dumey? Because if not then what the hell are you doing? I'm not the compromise you're trying to point me as. Sultan seems to agree with you and Han has been back and fourth but I think that's it? Lea isn't sure I'm town, but she has told you she sees value in keeping me alive.

EDumey posted...

Ben's perspective is that this game had an absolutely STACKED scum team of Chris, Han, Lea, Dumey, and we chose to bus Chris D1, instead of letting him get lynched naturally later in the game from his expected policy lynch for being alive too long. Instead of trying to steamroll the game by just mislynching what, three in a row?

If you guys are going to invoke WIFOM arguments of "Scum Ctes would never shoot Death to set himself up in a semi-confirm claim!" than I'm also going to engage in WIFOM arguments to say there's no possible way that four man scum team decides to bus Chris D1.

They're not the same. You cant exchange one WIFOM for another like that. Anything and everything is possible, yes. And that goes both ways. I think that Chris was in trouble from more than just Han and lea. Sultan and Ulti also wanted him dead. The remainder of players wanted HAN dead. Han's back was upagainst a wall.

It was tied

[3]
[3]

Two minutes before deadline when Han had to switch his vote to Chris to save himself.

PunishedBen posted...

But you did vote him. TWICE

But I wasn't going to leave my vote on him lol

That's like accusing me of being willing to post my role PM. Of course I'm not going to leave my vote down when I'm not around to watch things.

So here's a question for anyone who thinks I'm scum. Why would I kill Ulti last night?

Ulti was convinced I was town and wanted to vote Han with me. I coud have not killed him and came into today 4V4, yes?

Sorry, 3V5. And then after mislynching today I'd kill Ulti and its 3V3, scum wins

HanOfTheNekos posted...

But I wasn't going to leave my vote on him lol

That's like accusing me of being willing to post my role PM. Of course I'm not going to leave my vote down when I'm not around to watch things.

"Watching things" doesn't make any sense. As you yourself and Lea admitted. You either see scum hammer and win before you can react or you get told minimal data that is NOT WORTH risking losing the game over

ctesjbuvf posted...

I think it's another ridiculous stance to just say let's ignore Ben/Han because of battle lines.

Do you think it's town/town Dumey? Because if not then what the hell are you doing? I'm not the compromise you're trying to point me as. Sultan seems to agree with you and Han has been back and fourth but I think that's it? Lea isn't sure I'm town, but she has told you she sees value in keeping me alive.

Lea thought there was value in lynching Ben or Sultan first because there's a small off chance that you could pull off a roleblock and we could evaluate you with more information later.
But if we're in likely MYLO, then we can't take chances for information lynches.
If town is 50% aligned on Han or Ben, but 70% aligned on Ctes, then why wouldn't I take the higher chance?

I have wanted BCT/Ben lynched for days. I actually provided real read evidence for BCT displaying patterns of behavior that led me to think he was scum. And Ben coming in as replacement and trying his damndest to do a dirty hit on Han has not improved my opinion of that player slot.

But if I can't convince the rest of my townies on those arguments, then I have to explore what Town wants, and determine what I'm okay with. I think there's a very high chance of you being scum Ctes, and a lower (BUT NOT IMPOSSIBLE) chance of Han being scum. If people aren't going for a Ben lynch, then I'm going for you instead.

I've only managed to get halfway through topic 7.

I don't think I'm going to get through everything in time gah.

And I don't even have any new thoughts really.

efff

PunishedBen posted...

"Watching things" doesn't make any sense. As you yourself and Lea admitted. You either see scum hammer and win before you can react or you get told minimal data that is NOT WORTH risking losing the game over

It made sense at the time.

I had windows open across my monitors, I was paying attention.

PunishedBen posted...

"Watching things" doesn't make any sense. As you yourself and Lea admitted. You either see scum hammer and win before you can react or you get told minimal data that is NOT WORTH risking losing the game over

Funny enough, the only time I pretended to do this myself, I was scum. And I tried to pretend to town clear myself off of it and convinced others. But I wasn't afraid of the game ending because I was scum and knew that it wouldn't

PunishedBen posted...

They're not the same. You cant exchange one WIFOM for another like that. Anything and everything is possible, yes. And that goes both ways.

So you admit that Ctes is not Town Cleared, thank you.

PunishedBen posted...

So here's a question for anyone who thinks I'm scum. Why would I kill Ulti last night?

Ulti was convinced I was town and wanted to vote Han with me. I coud have not killed him and came into today 4V4, yes?

Because he was a confirmed Doctor that had possibly already stopped one shot. Next question.

But really. We KNOW that a lot of times scum teams will prioritize kills around roles and not who does or doesn't support or suspect them. This is actually useless WIFOM. Ulti was the doctor. That's why he was killed. End of discussion.

the sultan/bct/dumey argument about bct's reaction to my scan is giving me an aneurysm

Funny, the only time I accused the person who Chris tried to mislynch day 1, I was Scum!

HanOfTheNekos posted...

It made sense at the time.

I had windows open across my monitors, I was paying attention.

Aight then. You know I don't believe it. Literally Lopen strats

Chaeix posted...

the sultan/bct/dumey argument about bct's reaction to my scan is giving me an aneurysm

I don't even think I was that concerned with the reaction to the scan, was I? That was just BCT going crazy on the OMGUS train while I desperately tried to get him to admit to any kind of grounded statement on Wallz. Unless that was a different convo.