Poll of the Day > So is Israel at war with someone?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Can it be considered a war when only one side has a the power of a State? >_>

Mead posted...

havent the Palestinians been in that region for thousands of years? It seems like Israel is almost entirely supported by US Christian evangelicals that are ignorant of actual history

Those Christians support Israel because they see the existence of Israel as being a prerequisite for the return of Jesus.
The US government has a secular interest in Israel as the nation basically functions as a massive military base for the USA.

Oh, also... there's overlap with these groups, but some anti-semites support Israel for a few reasons I'll highlight.
* They like ethnostates and authoritarianism. The non-Muslim anti-semites usually hate Muslims, too, so the violence in and of itself is an outright perk to them.
* It gives them ammunition for their position that Jewish people have interests contrary to other people and are disloyal by affilliating Jewish people as a whole with the actions of a foreign State (Israel).
* It allows them to push a "good jew" "bad jew" narrative, something you will often see Zionists thoughtlessly parrot, doing the anti-semites' work for them. *coughshapirocough*

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Uhh yeah off and on for the past 2021 years lol

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Gaawa_chan posted...

Those Christians support Israel because they see the existence of Israel as being a prerequisite for the return of Jesus.

:|
:o
:|

A lot of evangelical Christians want there to be war in Israel because they want it to lead to judgement day. So they pressure politicians to provide financial support for weapons. Its a bunch of bullshit propped up on even more bullshit.

If somebody was kicking me and my family out of our house, trampling all over our rights, and bombing civilians, you better believe Id be firing off rockets or do whatever I could to get them out of my country. Imagine if some foreign nation tried to do that to the US

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Ferarri619 posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/261-politics/79451769/953838476

This post

It is wrong to launch rocket attacks on civilian areas and some level response is needed. (That response should NOT be launching bigger bombs back to kill more people, however) Either way, focusing ONLY on responding to rocket attacks ignores the larger issue of why those attacks are occurring. If Israelis ignore that issue indefinitely then, yes, Palestinians are going to continue to be frustrated (despair?) and some of them, yes, will act out. Acting out by killing someone is wrong, but it is predictable human nature in a repressed population.

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Mead posted...

If somebody was kicking me and my family out of our house, trampling all over our rights, and bombing civilians, you better believe Id be firing off rockets or do whatever I could to get them out of my country. Imagine if some foreign nation tried to do that to the US

...And you would be okay with your government placing those rockets right by your house and by other innocent people, including children, using all of you as a sacrifice so that government can play victim?

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maybe israel shouldn't oppress the populace so much that terrorist organizations rise up that commit this kind of shit

focusing on the sins of the oppressed means you're taking the side of the oppressor

NOBODY is saying hamas is blameless, but israel doing worse shit on a daily basis is why they feel pushed to that point

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Ferarri619 posted...

...And you would be okay with your government placing those rockets right by your house and by other innocent people, including children, using all of you as a sacrifice so that government can play victim?

dude the Palestinians living in that region dont even have a government or representation

if some French dude killed 20 people in Texas wed throw the murderer in jail but we wouldnt declare war on fucking France

if they have the technology and resources to implement an iron curtain to protect themselves from missiles then you cant tell me they dont have a way to stop unsophisticated rockets that doesnt result in the deaths of dozens of civilians and children

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Ottoman Syria would never have let this happen

Mead posted...

A lot of evangelical Christians want there to be war in Israel because they want it to lead to judgement day. So they pressure politicians to provide financial support for weapons. Its a bunch of bullshit propped up on even more bullshit.

If somebody was kicking me and my family out of our house, trampling all over our rights, and bombing civilians, you better believe Id be firing off rockets or do whatever I could to get them out of my country. Imagine if some foreign nation tried to do that to the US

I grew up Lutheran and I was told we have to support Israel because they are God's chosen people and something about the end times coming when the world turns their back on God's chosen people (not like it hasn't happened before since revelations, but they leave that part out) so by supporting Israel you stave off judgement day

I am not a Christian anymore and don't think the Jews are God's chosen people or that revelations will come true btw but that was what I was taught

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Mead posted...

dude the Palestinians living in that region dont even have a government or representation

Well, yes, they have leadership that they vote for (PLO, Hamas, whatever). Those governments are just as much resistance (and terrorist) organizations as they are governments, which is not particularly surprising given the situation...although the terrorism can't be condoned. There is wide support for the terrorism among the Palestinians: it's incorrect to believe that it's just a few bad actors. Buut...

Ferarri619 posted...

...And you would be okay with your government placing those rockets right by your house and by other innocent people, including children, using all of you as a sacrifice so that government can play victim?

The actions are wrong. There would be better ways for the Palestinians to gain attention for their plight (mass non-violent demonstrations, etc). But focusing on individual actions linked to a broader situation (even if they are terrorist actions) is classic political misdirection. Look how wrong my opponent is: that's terrible! (And while the media is eating this up I'll use the opportunity to repress them further)

In short, Netanyahu is playing victim no less than the Palestinians...and probably more in the grand scheme of things. The Jews were horrific victims in WWII (and plenty of other times in history) but that doesn't give them a permanent right to play the victim card in every situation.

Anyways, to focus on the limited question: would *I* be happy to have rockets fired from near my house? No, but I'm not in a similar situation. It seems that the Palestinians are fed up enough to believe that they all need to be a part of the resistance and accept some casualties. They continue to vote for their leadership. Also, the alternative to firing rockets from urban areas is to fire them from the desert (and be identified/killed immediately without cover). That also does not seem terribly realistic. Again, though: the rocket/response cycle is NOT the problem. The living/political conditions are the problem.

xcrimx posted...

Ottoman Syria would never have let this happen

Maybe not. But they were weak and ineffective. And if they WEREN'T weak they might still have been attacking their Christian neighbors and selling people from the cities they conquered into slavery.

If you look back into history you eventually realize that nobody has their hands clean. The point is to deal with the here and now...

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https://www.dailydot.com/debug/israel-soldier-palestine-instagram-story/

look how much their human rights are being respected

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wpot posted...

There would be better ways for the Palestinians to gain attention for their plight (mass non-violent demonstrations, etc).

they have been doing this for a long time and it hasn't been working because the west doesn't give a shit

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agesboy posted...

they have been doing this for a long time and it hasn't been working

Not in my memory, no. I'm talking about mass demonstrations where a huge group of people, for example, walks across a border without yelling or violent actions. Or sits quietly in some Jewish portion of Jerusalem. Something big enough that it's disruptive (and catches the media's attention) without being a yelling/screaming/violent event. Ghandi-style stuff. THAT would be their best tactic, and I do not see them trying such things on a large enough scale and consistent enough basis to be effective.

Portions of the west definitely (and increasingly, the further we get from WWII and the longer this stretches out) care, and those elements will have more power to act if they don't appear to be acting in support of terrorism. Is it fair for the Palestinians to have to wait for that? No, but reality isn't fair: it's just reality.

It's disingenuous to pretend that the Palestinians have always (or are currently) acting perfectly: they have their own flaws. They are clearly the wronged party in 2021, though.

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Gaawa_chan posted...

* They like ethnostates and authoritarianism. The non-Muslim anti-semites usually hate Muslims, too, so the violence is an outright perk to them.
* Affiliating Jewish people as a whole with the actions of a foreign State (Israel) supports the anti-semitic position that Jewish people are disloyal and have interests contrary to other people.
* It allows them to push a "good jew" "bad jew" narrative, something you will often see Zionists thoughtlessly parrot, doing the anti-semites' work for them. *coughshapirocough*

And like clockwork:
https://twitter.com/JasonSCampbell/status/1392837004350484492

The idea that being a "good" Jew = blind loyalty to the State of Israel is antisemitic and comes from the idea that Jewish people will never truly be a part of any other nation, even if they were born and raised elsewhere. It is a position one can only hold if you support ethnostates.

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Mead posted...

https://www.dailydot.com/debug/israel-soldier-palestine-instagram-story/

look how much their human rights are being respected

You act like there aren't rampant human rights violations across the Muslim world. Israel is bad, but the whole Middle East is a backwards dystopia that is less progressive than it was 1000 years ago. Is Netanyahu worse than guys like Sadam, Gaddafi, etc that have done much worse to their own people in just recent history?

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Israel is an ally of the USA, and the USA has monumental influence on that State but instead plays defense for their apartheid and genocide to appease Christian Apocalypticism and justify the military expenditures in Israel, which are convenient to the USA's economic interests.

Muscles posted...

You act like there aren't rampant human rights violations across the Muslim world. Israel is bad, but the whole Middle East is

I hope you are not thinking that this is an effective defense of the government of Israel. I will agree with you on one point, and that is this: we should definitely be comparing other nations to Israel, specifically Saudi Arabia, another State that the USA plays defense for in the name of its economic interests despite the atrocities committed there. Between these two nations, only one is treated as though it is some sort of paragon of democracy in US discourse despite being a genocidal apartheid State.

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Muscles posted...

You act like there aren't rampant human rights violations across the Muslim world. Israel is bad, but the whole Middle East is a backwards dystopia that is less progressive than it was 1000 years ago. Is Netanyahu worse than guys like Sadam, Gaddafi, etc that have done much worse to their own people in just recent history?

The US isnt financially supporting those other dead people you are listing, we actually helped bring them down

You really arent good at thinking about things critically muscles. It seems like a lot of your opinions are just knee-jerk reactions or things you have heard other people say.

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Gaawa_chan posted...

I hope you are not thinking that this is an effective defense of the government of Israel. I will agree with you on one point, and that is this: we should definitely be comparing other nations to Israel, specifically Saudi Arabia, another State that the USA plays defense for in the name of its economic interests despite the atrocities committed there. Between these two nations, only one is treated as though it is some sort of paragon of democracy in US discourse despite being a genocidal apartheid State.

I'm not trying to defend Israel, they have done a bunch of terrible things, but this isn't Star Wars and the people they're fighting aren't the good guy rebels just trying to bring peace to their homeland

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USA actually helped them rise to power and then helped to bring them down, I can only assume it's because all of them have outlived their usefulness

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Muscles posted...

I'm not trying to defend Israel, they have done a bunch of terrible things, but this isn't Star Wars and the people they're fighting aren't the good guy rebels just trying to bring peace to their homeland

NO ONE IS CLAIMING ANYTHING OF THE SORT

your human rights matter no matter what JFC

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Gaawa_chan posted...

And like clockwork:
https://twitter.com/JasonSCampbell/status/1392837004350484492

The idea that being a "good" Jew = blind loyalty to the State of Israel is antisemitic and comes from the idea that Jewish people will never truly be a part of any other nation, even if they were born and raised elsewhere. It is a position one can only hold if you support ethnostates.

I'm sure the vast majority of Jews in the US have never been to Israel and don't think of it as their home country.

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What_The_Chris posted...

USA actually helped them rise to power and then helped to bring them down, I can only assume it's because all of them have outlived their usefulness

Remember when Green Baret's trained and armed Al Qaeda to combat Russia during the cold war. Pepperidge Farm's remembers.

As soon as a religion starts with the whole we are just better than other people by divine right I dont think it should be supported by anyone

I dont like Shintoism for the same reason

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What do you think will happen if we just give Israel's land back to Palestine? You just get another oppressive government

Israel's existence doesn't make the middle east hostile or oppressed more than any other government would

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Muscles posted...

What do you think will happen if we just give Israel's land back to Palestine? You just get another oppressive government

And we can encourage them to not be oppressive through regular old diplomacy, nobody thinks that the US can solve middle eastern conflict or force other nations to be peaceful.

But right now the US is actively aiding and funding the same kind of tyranny that motivated the creation of our nation

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Muscles posted...

Israel's existence doesn't make the middle east hostile or oppressed more than any other government would

you really think the US taking natives' land away and giving it to colonists is not making them more hostile or oppressed???

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IronBornCorps posted...

Remember when Green Baret's trained and armed Al Qaeda to combat Russia during the cold war. Pepperidge Farm's remembers.

MGS5 is about that, so yeah

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Mead posted...

And we can encourage them to not be oppressive through regular old diplomacy, nobody thinks that the US can solve middle eastern conflict or force other nations to be peaceful.

But right now the US is actively aiding and funding the same kind of tyranny that motivated the creation of our nation

I have said throughout this topic that I don't think the US should support Israel. I just feel like this situation is one where there are no "good" or "bad" sides

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Muscles posted...

I just feel like this situation is one where there are no "good" or "bad" sides

nobody cares, because nobody is trying to claim that

its just you being obnoxious

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https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/15/palestinian-death-toll-in-gaza-occupied-west-bank-mounts-live-news
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Mead posted...

nobody cares, because nobody is trying to claim that

its just you being obnoxious

The only thing thats obnoxious are your ignorant and naive comments. Maybe you support Hamas terrorism? Execution of homosexuals? Oppression of women? A region in
despair with or without Israeli involvement? And you whine about human rights? Gtfo here with your bs, you wouldnt last a day in Palestine.

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Red04 posted...

The only thing thats obnoxious are your ignorant and naive comments. Maybe you support Hamas terrorism? Execution of homosexuals? Oppression of women? A region in
despair with or without Israeli involvement? And you whine about human rights? Gtfo here with your bs, you wouldnt last a day in Palestine.

its ok that they are being mistreated, they would only mistreat themselves after all

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Mead posted...

its ok that they are being mistreated, they would only mistreat themselves after all

Again I'm not sure why you're lumping Hamas in with Palestinian civilians. They are not "doing it to themselves". Hamas is doing it to Palestinian civilians.
Everything Red said about Hamas is true, so why do you support all of those actions toward civilians?
I totally understand the argument of "If terrorists held a school hostage, you shouldn't respond by bombing the entire school." I totally get that, but I also think the fact that armed terrorists are a big deal in that scenario and the terrorists need to be emphasized.

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you can shit on them all you want, but why do the terrorists exist to begin with

(it's israel's oppression/colonization and therefore ENTIRELY their fault)

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agesboy posted...

you can shit on them all you want, but why do the terrorists exist to begin with

(it's israel's oppression/colonization and therefore ENTIRELY their fault)

I'm pretty sure they exist because of the the allies drawing up the borders for the middle east without any regard for the locals

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israel's entire existence is cuz of the allies, so yeah, basically

damn i wanna play some more hearts of iron 4 now

edit: https://i.gyazo.com/9796362bc47e9454a11d219d6f0cc76c.png i dont wanna play france!!!!!

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Ferarri619 posted...

Again I'm not sure why you're lumping Hamas in with Palestinian civilians. They are not "doing it to themselves". Hamas is doing it to Palestinian civilians.
Everything Red said about Hamas is true, so why do you support all of those actions toward civilians?
I totally understand the argument of "If terrorists held a school hostage, you shouldn't respond by bombing the entire school." I totally get that, but I also think the fact that armed terrorists are a big deal in that scenario and the terrorists need to be emphasized.

Israel is bombing and killing MOSTLY civilians with their air strikes and they arent kicking Hamas out of their homes, just ordinary Palestinians.

I have no opinion on Hamas other than the fact of theyve committed terrorism they hopefully are caught and held accountable for their crimes. You cant just kill and punish civilians though when you dont know which ones are criminals and which ones arent.

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https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1393747225881231360

Lol wtf why does Israeli Military propaganda seem like a comic book movie trailer

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Hamas are civilians because you don't let them have a military you dipshits

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Since Israel bombed the Al Jazeera building in Gaza got me thinking, what if Trump was still president and had Tweeted about it?

"Would like to congratulate Israel for blowing up the fake news building in Gaza!"

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Over 50 dead Palestinian children killed so far in these airstrikes

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Mead posted...

Over 50 dead Palestinian children killed so far in these airstrikes

out of how many people? 'cuz it'd be pretty weird to bomb specifically children

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https://youtu.be/1Gbu5eEmkQA

I don't get Putin's joke, can someone explain plz

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Israelis and Palestinians are fighting over sand which you can buy really cheap at a hardware store.

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Conner4REAL posted...

Israelis and Palestinians are fighting over sand which you can buy really cheap at a hardware store.

what a goober take

I wish I could talk with their leaders/communities to see what ground they share cuz maybe there is a simple solution they are both overlooking.

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it's not actually that complicated or about finding common ground though; israel is colonizing and seizing land that isn't theirs with the end goal of completely displacing the native population, violently, while the majority of the international community supports them due to religious reasons

the literal only fair thing to do is expel all zionists and charge israelite political and military leaders with war crimes, and it's not going to happen. israel should not exist and in a decade or two, palestine won't

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agesboy posted...

it's not actually that complicated or about finding common ground though; israel is colonizing and seizing land that isn't theirs with the end goal of completely displacing the native population, violently, while the majority of the international community supports them due to religious reasons

the literal only fair thing to do is expel all zionists and charge israelite political and military leaders with war crimes, and it's not going to happen. israel should not exist and in a decade or two, palestine won't

The land... is nebulous, I don't know what you mean by 'the land'. Because Israel does deserve and has right to Israel, but if they are trying to grab any more then that's no different than Russia trying to take Ukraine and should be looked down upon...

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