Poll of the Day > So is Israel at war with someone?

(+) Yeah! (+)

why do you think israel has a claim to land palestinian lands? israel did not exist before the end of ww2

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Lokarin posted...

Because Israel does deserve and has right to Israel

Why?

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agesboy posted...

why do you think israel has a claim to land palestinian lands? israel did not exist before the end of ww2

The obvious counter argument is that neither did Palestine, the region hadn't been self governing in a long time.

That's obviously an over simplification since people did live there (both Muslims and Jews).

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Mead posted...

Why?

It was granted as part of the post-war settlements.

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Lokarin posted...

It was granted as part of the post-war settlements.

you cant just grant land to someone when theres already other people living there. It would be like if China and India decided that Texas will now be granted to Koreans.

Israel military is now doing everything they can to suppress the media. One of the bosses at the AP and Al Jazeera building was on the phone with Israel officials letting them know that they are not associated with Hamas but the officials only question was has the building been evacuated? right before bombing it into the ground

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/us-gaza-tower-israel-palestine-conflict-b1848754.html

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instead of funding this war, we should let the Israelis have one of the flyover states

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Israel developed Raid: Shadow Legends
:o

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MrMelodramatic posted...

instead of funding this war, we should let the Israelis have one of the flyover states

for real if we gave them an entire Dakota how many people would even notice

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Mead posted...

you cant just grant land to someone when theres already other people living there.

umm, that's literally how war works and pretty much how any border has changed for thousands of year.

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Lokarin posted...

umm, that's literally how war works and pretty much how any border has changed for thousands of year.

yeah many terrible things happened in the past

I would like to think that weve become somewhat more enlightened though as a species, even if it is still very much a work in progress.

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Mead posted...

yeah many terrible things happened in the past

I would like to think that weve become somewhat more enlightened though as a species, even if it is still very much a work in progress.

ye, I was under the impression that Israel was trying to take recent and NEW Palestine land, which would be a no-no

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yeah its just the land that palestinians have lived on for the past thousand years no big deal

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agesboy posted...

yeah its just the land that palestinians have lived on for the past thousand years no big deal

Tell that to the Byzantines

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Arguments about the past are going to get nowhere, because the history of that particular stretch of land are very tortured and complex. Here's a primer (which obviously includes oversimplifications):

3000 years ago. There was a Jewish/Israeli kingdom. How similar are Jewish people today to the people of this kingdom? I'm no full expert, but I understand that there are still genetic (not to mention religious) consistencies so it's not completely wrong to draw a connection.
2500 years ago. The Jewish kingdom gets destroyed and many of the Jewish people (mostly the upper classes) were intentionally sent into exile in Babylon and elsewhere.
2000 years ago. The Jewish kingdom was starting to be rebuilt, but the Romans came and conquered them. They destroyed their temple and ushered in a new era of repression. Also, Christianity grew out of Judiasm.
1500 years ago. The territory contains a mix of Arabs, Jews, and post-Jewish Christians. However, the Roman emperor converts to Christianity so they are the favored residents of the area (as part of the Byzantines, yes).
1200 years ago. Islam is founded...again in the same general area. Arab Muslim forces capture Jerusalem, although they fight mostly against the Byzantines. In this period the Jews are not at the center of the conflict: they persist somewhat in the background.
1000 years ago. The Crusades begin. These are rather disastrous for the Jews, who were often the ones displaced for the Christian kingdoms that briefly sprang up here and there. As I understand the Jewish population was actually displaced more by the Crusades than by the Muslim conquest.
500 years ago. The displaced Jews were living all over the place in Europe, and anti-Semitism was a real problem (the Inquisition, etc)
100 years ago. Anti-Semitism was coming to a real head in Europe and many Jews moved back to Palestine (as part of the Zionism movement) given that their home-away-from-home in Europe was strongly rejecting them (and WWII was on the horizon) and given that the Ottoman Empire had just been destroyed in WWI.
80 years ago. The Holocaust occurs.
75 years ago. The surviving Jews flee to Palestine to meet up with the Zionists. There is mutual dislike between them and the local Arabs. Conflict quickly breaks out. The West supports the Jews, which was very understandable given the events of the preceding 50 (or 3000) years, who win the short wars and set up a government.

...and then nothing much changed until today, unfortunately. The situation never stabilized.

The point is: it is wrong to say that Jews don't belong in Israel/Palestine/pick your name. They were wronged and kicked out of the land by force over centuries. They have no true home elsewhere. HOWEVER, two wrongs don't make a right. (Or in this case, 12,529 wrongs don't make a right)

The situation today is that the Israelis have the power and they are abusing their power. They are morally responsible to find a true, humane, permanent solution for the Palestinians EVEN IF those Palestinians hate them, attack them, and don't share their religion. To go Spiderman on them, with great power comes great responsibility. Israelis now have that power.

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wpot posted...

Spiderman

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^I COULD edit it. But I'm not going to. :)

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;p

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Fuck the hyphen, maybe he should focus on superheroing in a more intelligent manner so that he can balance his heroic responsibilities alongside his personal responsibilities as a man to his family and friends, and not grammar alone

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Ouch. I feel attacked. Which portion of what I wrote do you disagree with? The "they belong there" statement, maybe?

If it would help to clarify, I believe the Palestinians have a right to be there as well. Both have been wrongly kicked out of the region and mistreated in the past, but both have always maintained some level of presence there. What is important that they find a way to share power (or separate) and coexist given current realities. The responsibility to do so falls upon the group in power: in this case the Israeli government.

I know the suggestion wasn't serious, but forcing the Israelis to move to the Dakotas (or anywhere else) would create yet another group of "losers" in the debate. In that case the Native American Dakota people. Once wars occur and populations are displaced there are always going to be historic wrongs, and most of those wrongs simply can't be corrected in reality. What is important is to grant everyone rights and a voice consistent with agreed-upon human rights in 2021. And that isn't happening now.

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Who are you responding to

Did someone else block me

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wpot posted...

What is important is to grant everyone rights and a voice consistent with agreed-upon human rights in 2021.

which is why nobody should be supporting Israel right now and these defensive air strikes

they have all the power and infrastructure and are essentially keeping Palestinians prisoner in areas where they dont have rights and they react with overwhelming hostility towards them on a regular basis

Do they really not see how many parallels there are between how they are treating Palestinians and the way that Jewish people were persecuted and mistreated in Europe decades ago?

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Mead posted...

Do they really not see how many parallels there are between how they are treating Palestinians and the way that Jewish people were persecuted and mistreated in Europe decades ago?

Yes, THAT is the correct question and the most relevant use of that history. Given their background it's particularly inexcusable.

Metalsonic66 posted...

Did someone else block me

It appears so.

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Plus I don't know much about MODERN Israel-Palestine, I can admit that... my naive position is that the land they got after the war is theirs and they have the right to defend it, so why are they shooting missiles at their own people? and if it's NOT their own people, that means they're shooting missiles at another nation, which is a bad.

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I think my biggest issue (besides the all the deaths) is how it's portrayed as "tit for tat" in the media.

Yes they are both firing rockets at each other. One side has a state of the art missile defense system, and most of the rockets shot their way are intercepted. The other side has "Don't be where the bombs are when they drop" as a defense. There is a huge gap in power between the two. It's like the US Armed forces versus a local militia from Texas. Creating this narrative that they are on equal footing only helps justify the actions Israel is taking, which are often unnecessary.

Lokarin posted...

lus I don't know much about MODERN Israel-Palestine

Shocker

i just don't see why an armed violent ethnostate is a necessity to begin with in the current day when general perception of jews is as a people to be protected

why can't there be a jewish migration to, like, chicago or something

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agesboy posted...

why can't there be a jewish migration to, like, chicago or something

Chicago isn't the Holy Land

just because they idolize something doesn't mean they deserve to own it

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It's a holy land to a lot of people, and multiple religions. I understand why it's highly disputed. The migration to Israel after the wars was seen as a gift because it was the holy land. It's not a place people are just going to leave, so I don't feel that's a viable option.

*edit*
I agree with you that they don't deserve to own it.

If it's a holy land then why is it so violent and fucked up, checkmate theists

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nobody should live there

they can visit during the day but no overnights

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Cacciato posted...

Shocker

bruh, I'm talking about like NOW... I can't get any solid information about the new conflict

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Lokarin posted...

bruh, I'm talking about like NOW... I can't get any solid information about the new conflict

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_crisis

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ReturnOfFa posted...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_crisis

Ok, this clears a ton of things up;

Israel is currently illegally occupying parts of Eastern Jerusalem, so any laws they pass to evict someone there would not be recognized.

Under this context I have to side with Palestine

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wpot posted...

Arguments about the past are going to get nowhere, because the history of that particular stretch of land are very tortured and complex. Here's a primer (which obviously includes oversimplifications):

3000 years ago. There was a Jewish/Israeli kingdom. How similar are Jewish people today to the people of this kingdom? I'm no full expert, but I understand that there are still genetic (not to mention religious) consistencies so it's not completely wrong to draw a connection.
2500 years ago. The Jewish kingdom gets destroyed and many of the Jewish people (mostly the upper classes) were intentionally sent into exile in Babylon and elsewhere.
2000 years ago. The Jewish kingdom was starting to be rebuilt, but the Romans came and conquered them. They destroyed their temple and ushered in a new era of repression. Also, Christianity grew out of Judiasm.
1500 years ago. The territory contains a mix of Arabs, Jews, and post-Jewish Christians. However, the Roman emperor converts to Christianity so they are the favored residents of the area (as part of the Byzantines, yes).
1200 years ago. Islam is founded...again in the same general area. Arab Muslim forces capture Jerusalem, although they fight mostly against the Byzantines. In this period the Jews are not at the center of the conflict: they persist somewhat in the background.
1000 years ago. The Crusades begin. These are rather disastrous for the Jews, who were often the ones displaced for the Christian kingdoms that briefly sprang up here and there. As I understand the Jewish population was actually displaced more by the Crusades than by the Muslim conquest.
500 years ago. The displaced Jews were living all over the place in Europe, and anti-Semitism was a real problem (the Inquisition, etc)
100 years ago. Anti-Semitism was coming to a real head in Europe and many Jews moved back to Palestine (as part of the Zionism movement) given that their home-away-from-home in Europe was strongly rejecting them (and WWII was on the horizon) and given that the Ottoman Empire had just been destroyed in WWI.
80 years ago. The Holocaust occurs.
75 years ago. The surviving Jews flee to Palestine to meet up with the Zionists. There is mutual dislike between them and the local Arabs. Conflict quickly breaks out. The West supports the Jews, which was very understandable given the events of the preceding 50 (or 3000) years, who win the short wars and set up a government.

...and then nothing much changed until today, unfortunately. The situation never stabilized.

The point is: it is wrong to say that Jews don't belong in Israel/Palestine/pick your name. They were wronged and kicked out of the land by force over centuries. They have no true home elsewhere. HOWEVER, two wrongs don't make a right. (Or in this case, 12,529 wrongs don't make a right)

The situation today is that the Israelis have the power and they are abusing their power. They are morally responsible to find a true, humane, permanent solution for the Palestinians EVEN IF those Palestinians hate them, attack them, and don't share their religion. To go Spiderman on them, with great power comes great responsibility. Israelis now have that power.

Great summary...my POV basically parallels yours.

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Lokarin posted...

Ok, this clears a ton of things up;

Israel is currently illegally occupying parts of Eastern Jerusalem, so any laws they pass to evict someone there would not be recognized.

Under this context I have to side with Palestine

I mean, bad moves were made on both sides of course. Still, it kind of comes down to that for me too in this circumstance. The land-grabs and evictions have been pretty inconducive to creating any sort of sense of brotherhood - which I know is perhaps ignorantly optimistic, but I think that MIGHT be possible if - like wpot said, the Israelis be responsible with their power. In my mind, that's not re-occupying currently occupied lands, something demonstrably done continuously for decades.

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Lokarin posted...

bruh, I'm talking about like NOW... I can't get any solid information about the new conflict

And you literally had to have someone paste a wiki article for you. Im suspecting learning and retaining information isnt your strong suit.

Cacciato posted...

And you literally had to have someone paste a wiki article for you. Im suspecting learning and retaining information isnt your strong suit.

how am I supposed to know that something that's like a week old has a wiki already?

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ReturnOfFa posted...

Great summary...my POV basically parallels yours.

In retrospect I suppose I could have gone back 3500 years to the time when the Israelites originally took over Palestine from the locals in the first place (with walls falling down and such) but the point was probably already made. And history gets more and more questionable the further back you go. Situations like this demonstrate why "possession is 9/10ths of the law".

Of course, morality is something else entirely...

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