Board 8 > I need an outsider's perspective and possible advice for my wife and I.

(+) Yeah! (+)

My wife and I are a bit at odds at the moment on a situation we have found ourselves in. I'm hoping maybe someone with an outside perspective might be able to help me see something differently or provide insight that might help relieve the stress a bit.

Myself, my wife, and our two children, moved from Utah 3 years ago because my wife was offered an opportunity to work for the business (the USPS) in a Headquarters position in Washington DC. It was a great opportunity, and since I am a unemployed disabled veteran and stay at home father, I had no qualms supporting her endeavor.

Fast forward 3 years now. I have not been happy since leaving. We have no friends or family on the east coast, the closest is a relative in Arkansas. We live in Virginia, and I haven't really found myself loving it here at all. I keep wanting to go back to Utah where all my friends and our family is. My kids as well have mentioned that they too miss Utah and the family and friends.

My wife, however, has been very happy here and she loves her job. During the pandemic, she's been teleworking her position, and there has been no official word that it could potentially be a permanent feature. Being a federal job, the mandates are rolled out a snail's pace, so the possibility of working her job from Utah is not yet a feasible option.

Adding to this, we are currently living in a rental property since we were unfamiliar with the area before we moved. Our lease is coming due, but we don't really want to rent anymore. If we stay in Virginia, we need to buy a house. If we move back, we need to start looking for a house in Utah, but we can't just have my wife quit her job and us move. She loves her job, like I said.

She feels a bit outnumbered with our vocal dissent on our current situation, and thinks that maybe she should give it up and move back. If we did move back, we have no idea what our job opportunities might be, if any. I don't want her to feel this way, I want her to be happy, but I too want to be happier. I'm just not sure what to do here.

She loves it here. I don't. I'm struggling to find a compromise, and I suspect one of us could end up being resentful no matter how this ends.

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Sounds like the decision should be to move. Unless you can find a means of happiness, maybe a part-time job, a social club/hobby, etc....youll never be happy there. She, on the other hand, can find happiness in Utah.

If she's a civil service federal employee (I'm assuming she is) then it would be FOOLISH to quit. Do not give up the security and benefits!

There is a distinct possibility that a whole hell of a lot of white collar jobs will become permanent telework as things have gone pretty damn smoothly since the pandemic forced work from home. Like you said, it will take time for things to get approved by unions and senior leadership.

I'm not sure what you don't like about the area. You've got all the museums and culture in DC. You've got the Shenandoah National Park not too far away. Ocean City and the beaches aren't too far. NYC and Philly are possible day trips. Weather is decent.

I would continue to rent, despite how much you don't want to. I think the picture will be much clearer by next year in terms of how the telework situation will become permanent, giving you a better idea whether you should buy in the DC area.

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100% agree with Seanchan.

Have her talk with her boss about the future of telework for her position, the feasibility of moving and her doing business trips back to Washington for occasional facetime, and go from there.

If she loves and is genuinely fulfilled by her job, you moving her back to Utah in exchange for her job is going to put an undeniable strain on your marriage. Even if she's the most caring and empathetic person you know, it's going to hurt her a lot when she starts a new job in Utah and absolutely hates it.


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Also like, I know it's not for everyone, but I feel like the reality of adulthood is that sometimes you move somewhere and it's hard to make friends as an adult. If you need to get a local hobby, go to school, or a part-time job to get you out into the world meeting people (basically the only way for adults to make friends), you should do it.

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I mean, she is the breadwinner of the family. When push comes to shove, she should be making the decision when at odds. She supports the household. Making her potentially quit her job and move from a place she loves likelier than not, in my eyes, leads to a likely divorce down the road.

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Seanchan posted...

I'm not sure what you don't like about the area. You've got all the museums and culture in DC. You've got the Shenandoah National Park not too far away. Ocean City and the beaches aren't too far. NYC and Philly are possible day trips. Weather is decent.

I live in the DC area, and there are plenty of reasons to not love it. The cost of living is fairly high, most places outside the city itself are generic soulless suburbs, traffic is some of the worst in the country, social stuff is weird because there are so many transplants, and the weather in summer is awful.
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What effort have you put towards being happy here? What did you imagine would happen when moving here to begin with that didn't pan out? Were you expecting to make new friends to hang out with, or were not really sure what to expect you might need to be happy here? If friends is what you were hoping for, have you been putting focus on local communities like sports leagues, hobby clubs, community groups etc. Have you been making a solid effort on that front to integrate into this place?

I think if fitting in here is just not working and you can't be happy, then its not unreasonable that you want to make a change. You can't spend the rest of your life miserable. But also, if you guys moved here with eyes open that you won't have the support network you did before and will have to start from scratch building a new social circle , then its really on you to have worked on that. If you have just been in the house depressed for 3 years about having no friends, I think that would be very frustrating for your wife, as that might feel like you haven't been trying to actually integrate and are just running out the clock until she'll say yes to moving back.

It's naturally easier for her to develope more social interaction due to meeting people through work, while being the stay at home spouse means you are going to have less mandatory reasons to leave and go meet people. That makes it on you to make that effort.

Not to assume you haven't been trying! I just don't see comment about this in your post.


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Xeybozn posted...

I live in the DC area, and there are plenty of reasons to not love it. The cost of living is fairly high, most places outside the city itself are generic soulless suburbs, traffic is some of the worst in the country, social stuff is weird because there are so many transplants, and the weather in summer is awful.

Besides the weather, which is regional and to taste (eg places with nice summers often have shitty winters), aren't you describing just about every city in the country? I do understand not liking cities but for real, this is every city I've been to.

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Yeah, most of my misery does come from lack of support structures from Utah.

There are aspects to life out here that I'm not fond of as well. The time zone difference when connecting with friend and family is very frustrating. The traffic gives me anxiety in general. The allergens here have required the use of antibiotics every year to alleviate sinus infections.

It's just never felt like home.

And, yeah, I've pretty much just sat around our house for the past 3 years. I'm not even sure what kind of social settings I would even enjoy going to that I wouldn't feel awkward at since I don't enjoy going out. I go walk/jog around the middle school track for exercise, have regular doctor visits that I need to be seen for in regards to my disabilities, but other than that, I usually just stay home.

I've already been to all the Smithsonian's, Philly, and NYC. Everything is way to crowded for my comfort, and I'm not really interested in feeling like a tourist anymore.

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Speaking as someone who moved literally across the entire country not even 6 months before the pandemic hit, I feel your pain.

What sucks is that you have the pandemic to contend with this past year too. So if you guys were feeling like you weren't making friends and whatnot, you haven't even had the opportunity to say "Okay, let me give it an earnest try." And frankly, you probably won't have that opportunity for another 4+ months.

I miss my friends and family a ton. I have only a couple people here I can really lean on. It sucks. And the pandemic hit just as I got in the position to go out and make new friends. And I know that's amplified by the pandemic, and I'm sure a lot of how you're feeling is amplified by it too.

Is there an option your wife can do a transfer to a facility in Utah?

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BakusaiTenketsu posted...

And, yeah, I've pretty much just sat around our house for the past 3 years. I'm not even sure what kind of social settings I would even enjoy going to that I wouldn't feel awkward at since I don't enjoy going out. I go walk/jog around the middle school track for exercise, have regular doctor visits that I need to be seen for in regards to my disabilities, but other than that, I usually just stay home.

What kind of social/personal settings would you like? I don't mean in Virginia specifically, I just mean your ideal settings that you'd want to be happy.

I think your wife's preferences should take priority since they actually come with a job attached, but of course it'd be better if you enjoyed the place more too.
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Yeah I gotta agree that it would be a big mistake for you to move back to Utah at the expense of her job.

It sounds like you are going to have to step out of your comfort zone (if you can even call it that, since you're not currently comfortable by your own admission) and put some actual effort into getting used to the area. Home is where you make it. If you don't try to make it there, it will never BE there and you're never going to be happy.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Is there an option your wife can do a transfer to a facility in Utah?

She's in a position specifically at a headquarters level. If we move back to Utah, she would have to drop about 4 or 5 pay levels and take a field position instead, which she would not be happy in.

Her education and work experience might be applicable to other businesses though, and we haven't researched it, but there would need to be openings of course for those to even be a possibility. Federal jobs are protected though, so transfers to lower paid positions are the only real guarantee.

We've talked a little since I posted this, and as of right now, we are just "kicking the can" a little longer. We will extend our lease to November/December if the owners will accept a short term lease, and her hope (which she feels is a strong possibility) is that by that point telework/domicile policies will be updated and which jobs qualify.

She isn't excited about moving back to state that has a lot of annual snow, and I get the feeling she liked living far from her parents as well (lol).

We just celebrated our 19th wedding anniversary. We will work through this, and divorce isn't anything I'm concerned about. We aren't that bad. But we are definitely very far apart on this decision. It's kind of uneasy putting a lot of faith into the updated policies of the post office that may or may not happen any time soon.

I'm fiercely loyal to my wife, even at the expense of my own desires, so I know I'm the type of person that will stay if I had to in order for her job happiness is secure. I could be in for a long road of slight depression in that case.

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Ok, this post might come across as a bit harsh, and I dont mean it, but I think you might be in need of some tough love.

You say you dont have any friends? Well...

Make new friends!

You have been there three years. If you havent made any friends, bro that is on you.

Your wife is the breadwinner for your family. She is already doing her part to make this situation work. Now its time for you to step up and do your part. Your wife works 40+ hours a week to keep a roof over your head. In the time you have lived there, have you put in an equivalent amount of effort to improve your personal situation and the situation for your kids? If not you need to reevaluate how you spend your days. Having your wife quit a FEDERAL CIVIL SERVICE position to move across the country for ??? job prospects is straight up a bad move. Im not going to say theres two sides here because there isnt. Its just dumb.

You need to get your ass out there and look for opportunities for yourself and your kids. Their school should have resources for you. If you have a church they will too. Look online for any local clubs or activities to try, even if they are completely new to you. If you cant think of anything else for yourself, look into the VFW or the American Legion. Its a place to start at least.

That all said, I truly wish the best for you and your family. Good luck!

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BakusaiTenketsu posted...

and divorce isn't anything I'm concerned about. We aren't that bad.

I am just saying if you force her back to Utah that it could get to this point quickly.

Video games? Join a bowling league? A pool league? Dart league? Golf? I mean, how much of this is the pandemic stunting your enjoyment? This is happening across the country as well. Your problem is you don't know anyone. You got to get out and meet people. Hell, take a bullshit community college class or two and meet some classmates. Doesn't really matter what you do. Eventually you are going to make acquaintances somewhere. Hell, go to AA even if you don't drink. Those people will tell you their life stories ad nauseum. There are things out there. Just got to get the motivation to try.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Besides the weather, which is regional and to taste (eg places with nice summers often have shitty winters), aren't you describing just about every city in the country? I do understand not liking cities but for real, this is every city I've been to.

I'd say it's more "far outer suburb problems" than "city problems", but I realized this myself right after I posted. But I was just trying to give a counterpoint to the "How could you not like DC?" post.

Anyway, I forgot to say anything about TC's problem. I have to agree with everyone saying you probably shouldn't move back to Utah. Yes, getting used to living in a new place is tough (especially right now with the pandemic), but it sounds like moving back would be a huge step down for your wife's career.
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Some suggestions:
Look on facebook or wherever you look nowadays and find a board game club or something similar you are interested in. Hopefully use this as a starting point to making local friends.
Use a small portion of the extra money your wife is making with her better job to invest in a hobby. Something you've been interested in but didn't have the funds for.
Look around the area and see if theres anywhere nearby you think you would rather live but that is still a reasonable distance from your wifes work.

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I'm pretty sure he has a disability paycheck based on what he said. So, he isn't exactly money-less in the situation. He doesn't need to to take his wife's extra money for his hobbies most likely.

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Corrik7 posted...

I'm pretty sure he has a disability paycheck based on what he said. So, he isn't exactly money-less in the situation. He doesn't need to to take his wife's extra money for his hobbies most likely.

All money from my disability and my wife's employment are shared, and we don't do his or hers.

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BakusaiTenketsu posted...

All money from my disability and my wife's employment are shared, and we don't do his or hers.

Was just responding to colegreen who said to use your wife's extra money.

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I grew up in NoVA so I'm probably biased, but I agree with the consensus here that it sounds like it makes more sense to stay in VA.

One other factor (since you mentioned that you have kids) is that NoVA's schools are very good.

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BakusaiTenketsu posted...

She's in a position specifically at a headquarters level. If we move back to Utah, she would have to drop about 4 or 5 pay levels and take a field position instead, which she would not be happy in.

Her education and work experience might be applicable to other businesses though, and we haven't researched it, but there would need to be openings of course for those to even be a possibility. Federal jobs are protected though, so transfers to lower paid positions are the only real guarantee.

We've talked a little since I posted this, and as of right now, we are just "kicking the can" a little longer. We will extend our lease to November/December if the owners will accept a short term lease, and her hope (which she feels is a strong possibility) is that by that point telework/domicile policies will be updated and which jobs qualify.

She isn't excited about moving back to state that has a lot of annual snow, and I get the feeling she liked living far from her parents as well (lol).

We just celebrated our 19th wedding anniversary. We will work through this, and divorce isn't anything I'm concerned about. We aren't that bad. But we are definitely very far apart on this decision. It's kind of uneasy putting a lot of faith into the updated policies of the post office that may or may not happen any time soon.

I'm fiercely loyal to my wife, even at the expense of my own desires, so I know I'm the type of person that will stay if I had to in order for her job happiness is secure. I could be in for a long road of slight depression in that case.

I think "kicking the can" out is absolutely the right choice here. Forcing a move because of an arbitrary lease deadline will be irreversible while if you stay you can change your mind about moving back later as you continue to figure this thing out. So this is a good holding maneuver for now.

I'm a bit concerned about your attitude about it though. It seems there's a lot of "oh yeah we aren't going to break up over it, i'll just put her needs first if i have to, it's okay if i'm depressed for awhile" going through your head, which is a bit understandable considering you currently unhappy, but I don't see you engaging with all of the suggestions on how to improve your situation where you are.

Do you WANT to make this place a home? Or is the solution in your mind either to go home to Utah and be happy or stay here for your wife's happiness and you'll just have to put up with never fitting in?

Pretty much everybody in here has been saying "you need to get up and go put yourself out there and make some new friends. It will never happen if you don't make it happen."

Do you agree with this? It can be tough to do, especially if you are an introverted guy, but if you don't have your automatic social circle from family and friends from school, you'll have to do the legwork to make this happen. There's a lot of ways this could be done. There might be a local neighborhood organization you can join that organizes events, there could be something at school or church, you could look for groups on facebook or other social media for things like board games or D&D or video games or tennis or brewing or whatever hobbies you are into. There's probably * some* kind of clubs for interests you have, you just have to put yourself in there and go meet these people.

There's even apps like Tinder for making friends with hobbies. I'm not sure what kind of people are actually using these things but apparently its actually used.

I've always seen you as an optimistic guy who really thoroughly invests himself in his passions, so I think that if you choose to do this, it's absolutely something you could follow through with. It really just requires you to want to do it.

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CoolCly posted...

I'm a bit concerned about your attitude about it though. It seems there's a lot of "oh yeah we aren't going to break up over it, i'll just put her needs first if i have to, it's okay if i'm depressed for awhile" going through your head, which is a bit understandable considering you currently unhappy, but I don't see you engaging with all of the suggestions on how to improve your situation where you are.

Do you WANT to make this place a home? Or is the solution in your mind either to go home to Utah and be happy or stay here for your wife's happiness and you'll just have to put up with never fitting in?

Pretty much everybody in here has been saying "you need to get up and go put yourself out there and make some new friends. It will never happen if you don't make it happen."

Do you agree with this?

Yeah. I've probably been sabotaging a bit since I haven't made any effort to conform. I have a military buddy back in Utah that I talk to regularly, and he wants me to come back, so I've probably been using that as an excuse as well.

I can't really answer these questions yet.

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redrocket posted...

Ok, this post might come across as a bit harsh, and I dont mean it, but I think you might be in need of some tough love.

You say you dont have any friends? Well...

Make new friends!

You have been there three years. If you havent made any friends, bro that is on you.

just want to reiterate this

you've been there 3 years, and since this is literally 2021 and not 1991, you can see and talk to your friends and families from across the country or even the world with a few taps on your phone/laptop

not having friends is a you problem, go make new ones

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Let's be honest, the real reason you wanna leave the area is the Silver Line being delayed for the umpteenth time.
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BakusaiTenketsu posted...

I have a military buddy back in Utah that I talk to regularly, and he wants me to come back, so I've probably been using that as an excuse as well.

Yeah, so, this is a problem.

Youre not just some single guy in the military anymore. You are a FATHER. Your family comes first over everyone else. Your children are depending on YOU to make smart decisions about your living situation that will affect them for the rest of their lives. I really would like to be able to hang out with this buddy of mine from back in the day again should have exactly 0% weight in making decisions like these.

If this guy has influenced you to push for this move, thats bad.

If this guy has been even a small part of you not putting in the effort to integrate to your new home over the last three years, thats real bad.

I think you need to do some heavy soul searching about how and why youve come to this point.

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It sounds like you're not really trying to make new friends as much as it is that if you moved back you'd just be relying on the ones you already have. I'm going to guess you're introverted? And you have a need for contact despite the fact that you lack the ability to do so (in a very rough manner of speaking). It's a tough situation.

Have you tried taking up golf? I've been paired up with lots of groups as a "single" and found it to be an interesting experience, even as someone who is very introverted. You're there to play but end up chatting with strangers for a few hours. And then you go on your way.

I guess I'm also somewhat surprised you haven't met other parents through your kids. That seems like the easy answer to getting some social interaction. If you've been married almost 20 years though, I'm going to guess your kids are too old at this point for "playdates" and things like that.

I think maybe your best option is volunteer work. If you're a veteran there's GOT to be organizations that would love to have your help.

On the telework front, I don't think this will matter to you but if (when?) they do allow permanent telework, but your wife would still be taking a paycut moving back to Utah as (I believe) that's "Rest of U.S." from a locality pay standpoint. Of course, you'd still come out ahead because, yeah, the D.C. area is expensive.

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Seanchan posted...

I'm not sure what you don't like about the area.

I dont live there and I can name a few. I bet im not far off.

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What did you used to do in Utah with your friends and family to make you happy? Could you try to emulate that over here, just things to try to ease your way from having your mind so set in Utah to becoming more comfortable in VA. I'm guessing it partly has to do with having friends in the immediate area, so finding some new friends/acquaintances would be the best step towards that. Like others have said already, there's plenty of ways to meet new people and you can still keep in contact with those in Utah. And considering you DO have friends in Utah, that shows that you have the ability to make friends in general so a different area shouldn't completely stop you from making new ones too

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I essentially picked up and moved to Portugal in February of last year with my girlfriend and went through a similar feeling of not making friends. Our situation was a little different because we don't have kids, are in our mid-20s, and had recently finished school so we weren't 'throwing' anything away. The decision was made after years of a 'what if?' mentality that my girlfriend had in terms of living there because she had her entire family there, and was done on my part at the time to both save the relationship and try something new.

We just got back a few months ago after a year of having a lot of fun but realizing that it would never lead to the life we wanted. Anyway, what's important here is that despite there being a 4 hour time difference, I still talked to and played games with friends and family nearly every day. I did a Zoom Jackbox with a friend group nearly every Friday. There are all kinds of ways to see and speak to people you know despite not being there in person, and no amount of time difference can really put a stop to that.

I don't speak and only marginally understand Portuguese but I put myself out there and made one good friend despite being a person who hates small talk and talking to people that I don't already know. Everyone here has already given great suggestions and I think you just need to take the plunge and do something in the community to at least attempt to make it work and meet people. Maybe it doesn't work out, but there's no harm in trying and it sounds like you could be doing a whole lot more to at least attempt to have a good time.

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LOLIAmAnAlt posted...

I dont live there and I can name a few. I bet im not far off.

Feel free to name some of those things that are unique to the D.C. area.

Another suggestion for meeting people without some of the agonizing pressure, get a dog! Walk your dog around your neighborhood and you'll soon be acquaintances with all the other dog owners.

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Pee in her butt

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Move back to Utah with your kids while your wife stays in Virginia. Everyone wins

this is actually very common in Japan

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@BakusaiTenketsu

No offense but, why do people make topics like this?

Moving in the middle of a Pandemic...why?

It's common in Japan to move to Utah?
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KingButz posted...

It's common in Japan to move to Utah?

im not ashamed to admit this just made me laugh hard

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I don't have any experience with this personally, but I would imagine that once things reopen in earnest this summer, the VA would have some sort of social programs to look into, especially in an area like Northern Virginia.

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I grew up in nova and lived/worked all around VA and DC. Will respond later. Lots of people here don't really get how nova is.

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MZero posted...

Move back to Utah with your kids while your wife stays in Virginia. Everyone wins

this is actually very common in Japan

my folks did this for a few years
and eventually divorced

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BakusaiTenketsu posted...

And, yeah, I've pretty much just sat around our house for the past 3 years. I'm not even sure what kind of social settings I would even enjoy going to that I wouldn't feel awkward at since I don't enjoy going out.

Ok so it does seem like you're not trying at all and expect magic friendship. You could do way more to seek out social groups. I found a poker group for example. Can't do anything now during the pandemic though.

Another trick is to use your wife's social group. She likes her job so clearly she has friends and acquaintances available to her. Pursue those more.

But another thing is that nova is especially dry. Everyone there is in your position, moved in for work and is super depressed. Everyone is so focused on work because otherwise you feel the deep regret of living in this hellhole. Even if you do have friends, they reject your invites because of work or just plain depression. You have to plan a meetup 2 weeks in advance to have any hope of it happening. But you don't need the majority of the area to be friendly, you just need 5-10 people. That's why social groups that have regular meetups are super valuable. Those people are dedicated to doing SOMETHING and thus aren't flakey. They are in your exact position and are doing something to fix it, and are totally open to new people for that reason. There's a hella ton of military there too if you want to hang with them.

DC is also really awesome if you live in it, but it totally sucks to drive in 35 min to go to a museum/restaurant/show like some tourist. So I would actually recommend living deeper in the city closer to your wife's work. Even if you don't want to talk to people, there's a lot of life and energy in the streets and various shops you can pop into for pastries and ramen and such. Biking around is great and makes it feel totally like home. Getting the zonal parking pass also makes you feel like a god who can park anywhere. (Zone 2 is best cuz you get Georgetown and all of downtown)

But if you can't even bother going to some social meetups then you're screwed. Def don't drag your wife and kids down with that.

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foolm0r0n posted...

I found a poker group for example. Can't do anything now during the pandemic though.

don't know if this is something your group is interested in, but for a while my poker group and I were doing play money tourneys on PokerStars and just venmo'ing the money to one another

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Sounds like youre in a situation where if nothing changes either you or your wife is going to be deeply unhappy long term which is a recipe for resentment and divorce and a Law and Order episode.

So id suggest some sort of change.

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Oh and in terms of community, there will never be a real "home" feeling at your neighborhood. The general populace is just way too reclusive and depressed. You will only find community in niche social groups. And they will be really small and weak despite the size of the city. But that gives a good opportunity to get into something and feel like a part of it, unlike in the bigger cities.

You should also explore central VA. The culture is immeasurably better than nova, and there's so much variety. Richmond, Cville, Norfolk are all wildly different. Richmond in particular is one of the most interesting and cultured cities in the country. The nature around there is awesome and freeing too, and not super crowded with red tape everywhere like great falls.

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ExThaNemesis posted...

don't know if this is something your group is interested in, but for a while my poker group and I were doing play money tourneys on PokerStars and just venmo'ing the money to one another

I have a different group that's doing that now. I'm not that into online poker though, even with video chat. Especially the insane pokerstars algorithm.

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foolm0r0n posted...

I have a different group that's doing that now. I'm not that into online poker though, even with video chat. Especially the insane pokerstars algorithm.

honestly me neither. I'd rather play with no video chat at all honestly. Esp when I eat a bad beat and have to be not a sore loser. it's just that something was better than nothing!

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With all due respect, I agree that asking your wife to leave Virginia and go back to Utah with no real idea of a solid future is a terrible idea. If all you've done is sit around for the last 3 years, it's time for you to make that place your home. Being somewhere new obviously won't feel like home if you make no attempt to explore it and find what you can do out there.

Stay in Virginia. Hopefully (most likely) this turns out well for your family in the long run.

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One thing that I totally disagree with is to stay in Nova. You need to have a plan to leave Nova eventually in order to have something to look forward to and maintain your sanity. Figure that out with your fam. It will be a few years but that's ok. The despair only comes from thinking you'll be stuck there forever. Once you see it as a temporary phase in life then it becomes more enjoyable.

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