Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 323: Peaceful Transition of Topics

(+) Yeah! (+)

Clearly @Jakyl25 has no objections.

---

Well, we're going to have to see what happens. Get rid of the posts, and the posts are a disaster, and there won't be a transfer, frankly, there'll be a continuation.

---

If you have people blocked, you shouldn't make the topic, TheRock. The purpose of these topics is to contain conversation, right?

---

I will mobilize my armies against this coup
---

Excellent topic title

xp1337 posted...

I don't think that's the majority opinion here. I think it's more along the lines of "I'm not going to waste my energy being outraged about those incidents when those in power and their supporters aren't outraged about the killing of black and brown people by police."

There's a critical distinction there. Like it just comes off as infuriating when the people who (primarily, not always) post such incidents with the intention of turning around and going "WHERE'S YOUR OUTRAGE, LIBS!?" when they're the same people who, when reacting to the killings of Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, etc. is "Well, they were no angels...", "Well, if they simply complied...", or "It was justified under the law, next."

It's not that people don't think these incidents are bad, it's just they no longer have any fucking patience to play into the one-sided hypocritical game conservatives like to throw at them of "Why aren't you mad about THIS TOO!?!?" that is just to deflect from the issues of systemic and institutional racism in the justice system and change the topic.

Excellent post, too

---

current discussion:



---

Body cam footage is not public record and the public cannot get access to it.

I'll give you one guess who fights to ensure that body cam footage doesn't get released to the public.

It's the police union.

Sorry, I should have been more precise with my words. Body cam footage should public record.

---

flair this

Tagging this topic, but also reminding everyone that the police union is the root of all current problems with the police.

---

The system and laws protecting them are broken regardless of union status. You could remove the union and police would still have power over the police.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Tagging this topic, but also reminding everyone that the police union is the root of all current problems with the police.

I have a similar sentiment about teachers unions.

---

red, I'm not explaining this to you again because you have proven literally incapable of understanding anything about the police union, most likely by choice.

---

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

red, I'm not explaining this to you again because you have proven literally incapable of understanding anything about the police union, most likely by choice.

You are incapable of understanding the problem extends well beyond the police union. Which we agree is problematic.

Abolish the police union, police still investigated by police, prosecutors still beholden to police. People at the top of the police structure are still police.

The fundamental problems with police in our society still exist

Didn't the police fire the officer who killed Taylor? It was the legal system that decided he shouldnt get any further punishment aside from wanton endangerment or whatever it was.

---

Im not sure that body cam footage should default to being public; they could in general be a pretty big privacy violation of the people the police are interacting with. It should certainly be released in situation where theres suspected wrongdoing on behalf of the police, though.

---

Yeah...for myself I don't comment on most of the shootings that happen (like...90% of them), whether it's black people getting shot by police, police getting shot, mass shootings with assault rifles in public places, or shootings in conflict zones like Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan.

But like...I'm pro gun control and anti-death penalty and anti-war, you can pretty much assume that my opinion is "someone got shot and died, this is a bad thing."

The gotcha of "you didn't talk about this particular shooting, this makes you a hypocrite" is like...nah, much more likely I was just feeling sick to my stomach from all the death in the news and didn't want to spend even more time talking about it on GameFAQs.

---

guffguy89 posted...

Didn't the police fire the officer who killed Taylor? It was the legal system that decided he shouldnt get any further punishment aside from wanton endangerment or whatever it was.

The officer they determined killed Breonna didn't even get charged. It was another officer. From what I understand.

---

No officer got charged for anything related to Brenna Taylor.

LordoftheMorons posted...

Im not sure that body cam footage should default to being public; they could in general be a pretty big privacy violation of the people the police are interacting with. It should certainly be released in situation where theres suspected wrongdoing on behalf of the police, though.

Correct. It is evidence in cases and possibly severe violations in privacy.

---

Leafeon13N posted...

Abolish the police union, police still investigated by police, prosecutors still beholden to police. People at the top of the police structure are still police.

The fundamental problems with police in our society still exist

I will make this incredibly brief.

Police unions lobby to put people in power, prosecutors included, that will help them most keep police from accountability, which includes rule making.

Much of this is in their contracts, which the police unions create to ensure as little accountability as possible for police with the people they have lobbied to power.

The problems with "police in our society" is because police unions to make them entirely immune from accountability, above all else.

You can go to people who can make laws to block a lot of this, but the police union has too many footholds with people they put in power to keep them from making these laws. Washington DC is the only place in America that has a law that police unions can't put anything discipline-related in contracts. The smallest part of America, is the only place with this. And all they could do was block discipline-related issues. That's nothing to say about investigations, or body cams, or anything else you can think of. Because the police union has put people in power to block laws like that.

Please understand.

---

https://twitter.com/revnatscider/status/1309158251628437504?s=19

---

Taxpayers did have to pay a very large settlement though.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

The problems with "police in our society" is because police unions to make them entirely immune from accountability, above all else.

The laws themselves actually do this though. Remove the union those are still in place.

Like, we agree police union right now = bad. But you keep trying to frame it as an end all be all to fixing the system and that simply isn't true.

I don't think that's the majority opinion here. I think it's more along the lines of "I'm not going to waste my energy being outraged about those incidents when those in power and their supporters aren't outraged about the killing of black and brown people by police."

There's a critical distinction there. Like it just comes off as infuriating when the people who (primarily, not always) post such incidents with the intention of turning around and going "WHERE'S YOUR OUTRAGE, LIBS!?" when they're the same people who, when reacting to the killings of Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, etc. is "Well, they were no angels...", "Well, if they simply complied...", or "It was justified under the law, next."

It's not that people don't think these incidents are bad, it's just they no longer have any fucking patience to play into the one-sided hypocritical game conservatives like to throw at them of "Why aren't you mad about THIS TOO!?!?" that is just to deflect from the issues of systemic and institutional racism in the justice system and change the topic.

QFT

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Police unions lobby to put people in power, prosecutors included, that will help them most keep police from accountability, which includes rule making.

Again, at the core, prosecutors are beholden to police for more than 99% of their jobs.

They aren't magically going to flip on them because there is no union.

metroid composite posted...

Yeah...for myself I don't comment on most of the shootings that happen (like...90% of them), whether it's black people getting shot by police, police getting shot, mass shootings with assault rifles in public places, or shootings in conflict zones like Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan.

But like...I'm pro gun control and anti-death penalty and anti-war, you can pretty much assume that my opinion is "someone got shot and died, this is a bad thing."

The gotcha of "you didn't talk about this particular shooting, this makes you a hypocrite" is like...nah, much more likely I was just feeling sick to my stomach from all the death in the news and didn't want to spend even more time talking about it on GameFAQs.

I certainly wouldnt say that not bringing up the police shooting makes anyone a hypocrite, but the blas attitude about it does bother me a bit, which is why I commented. I understand the perspective that xp outlined in his comment, but some of the other responses seemed to be pushing it a bit beyond this is being brought up in bad faith to I actually dont think this is that big of a deal. Maybe (hopefully) my interpretation was wrong!

---

Leafeon13N posted...

The laws themselves actually do this though. Remove the union those are still in place.

Like, we agree police union right now = bad. But you keep trying to frame it as an end all be all to fixing the system and that simply isn't true.

He's not doing that at all. He's saying you can't even begin to make any effective change until you get rid of the union because any change beyond that won't matter if the union still has power.

---

StealThisSheen posted...

He's not doing that at all. He's saying you can't even begin to make any effective change until you get rid of the union because any change beyond that won't matter if the union still has power.

He did say that though.

Leafeon13N posted...

He did say that though.

Care to point out where? Because all I see is him saying the unions are the biggest issue because they're specifically in place to avoid accountability and use their power to do so, and until you remove that hurdle, it doesn't matter what else you try.

---

For instance we can change the laws regarding the police, and regardless of the police union contract on that, they would be held to the new law.

The laws themselves are the root of the problem. Not the union. We agree the union doesn't help, the idea that it is the root cause of the systemic problem simply doesn't hold water.

it's kind of nice to finally see the entire topic united in agreement that trump is off his rocker

---

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Tagging this topic, but also reminding everyone that the police union is the root of all current problems with the police.

That doesn't say what you're saying it says.

---

LordoftheMorons posted...

I certainly wouldnt say that not bringing up the police shooting makes anyone a hypocrite, but the blas attitude about it does bother me a bit, which is why I commented. I understand the perspective that xp outlined in his comment, but some of the other responses seemed to be pushing it a bit beyond this is being brought up in bad faith to I actually dont think this is that big of a deal. Maybe (hopefully) my interpretation was wrong!

It's funny because what he said actually doesn't apply to a lot of the people here. See, it takes a lot less words just to say "man, that's wrong or sad to hear" then half of these responses. The problem isn't with people who are like yeah that's wrong, and we need to stop the things that cause these things to happen (which is a separate argument but at least an argument that isn't saying violence is acceptable). The problem is with people saying it's justifiable or acceptable for rioting, arson, looting, and etc for whatever reason. That's the issues and that is the extremism leaking in here.


---

Leafeon13N posted...

The laws themselves actually do this though. Remove the union those are still in place.

Like, we agree police union right now = bad. But you keep trying to frame it as an end all be all to fixing the system and that simply isn't true.

It isn't the end all, but it's the biggest thing blocking actual change from happening. Like I just explained to you what all they do and how difficult they make it to pass laws to tear down the issues with police. If you make sure the police union isn't meddling with lawmakers and lobbying and putting BS in their contracts, then it becomes easier to put these laws into place with the right people in charge. But they fight hard with taxpayer money to ensure the wrong people are put in charge.

Like with how many times we've seen people murdered by the cops like this over the years, why do you think only DC is the one to make any headway with these laws? It should be easier for lawmakers, especially now, to push something through. But it won't be because of the police union.

---

Jakyl25 posted...

I will mobilize my armies against this coup

Hey are you willing to answer a question for me honestly that I proposed from the prior topic?

---

Basically, what Biscuit is saying, and what he's 100% correct about, is you can cut the weeds all you like, but until you remove the root (the union), the weeds are just going to keep growing back. It doesn't mean ripping out the root solves everything, but it's basically fruitless to do much else until you do that.

---

Leafeon13N posted...

For instance we can change the laws regarding the police, and regardless of the police union contract on that, they would be held to the new law.

The laws themselves are the root of the problem. Not the union. We agree the union doesn't help, the idea that it is the root cause of the systemic problem simply doesn't hold water.

First, thanks SEP for backing me here.

To add to what SEP is saying, they are the root of the problem because they're the ones fighting so god damn hard, by design, to keep cops from accountability. They are the major hurdle keeping actual laws from being made to improve this.

Like I said about Washington DC blocking discipline-related issues from their contracts, they have to make a law to keep that out. Because it's such a problem with the union creating rules about discipline in their contracts, an actual law had to be made to keep them from meddling with it. That's how much power they have.

---

StealThisSheen posted...

Basically, what Biscuit is saying, and what he's 100% correct about, is you can cut the weeds all you like, but until you remove the root (the union), the weeds are just going to keep growing back. It doesn't mean ripping out the root solves everything, but it's basically fruitless to do much else until you do that.

The police are actually the weeds in this case though. You tear out the union the system is in place where the same scenario just comes back.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

current discussion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoyusTUFdl0

---

Leafeon13N posted...

The police are actually the weeds in this case though. You tear out the union the system is in place where the same scenario just comes back.

Yes, but then you can actually deal with the weeds and not just have them grow back as quickly as you cut them down. That's literally the point. The union is specifically making it near impossible to do anything about the weeds.

---

StealThisSheen posted...

Yes, but then you can actually deal with the weeds and not just have them grow back as quickly as you cut them down. That's literally the point. The union is specifically making it near impossible to do anything about the weeds.

The root is still the actual laws though. If you pluck the union the system is still there.

Leafeon13N posted...

The police are actually the weeds in this case though. You tear out the union the system is in place where the same scenario just comes back.

You tear out the union in this system and they don't lobby to keep people in power who will protect the police as fervently as they do.

You tear out the union in this system and they don't have nearly as much power to make the contracts benefit and protect police as much as they do.

You tear out the union in this system and lawmakers can make meaningful laws that won't get the pushback of the police union and the people they helped put into power who can also pushback to make sure that the law doesn't go through.

---

red, you have to be purposefully missing the point now.

---

Leafeon13N posted...

The root is still the actual laws though. If you pluck the union the system is still there.

The.

Union.

Is.

Why.

It.

Is.

So.

Hard.

To.

Actually.

Change.

Those.

Laws.

Why are you so hell bent on defending a union that is literally DESIGNED to fuck you over, kill you, fuck your corpse, and then make sure it gets away with it?

---

BTW a Fox News poll showed Biden up 5 in Ohio, 50-45.

I can't believe Ohio is a coin flip state now. Didn't Trump take it by double figures in 2016?

---

StealThisSheen posted...

Why are you so hell bent on defending a union that is literally DESIGNED to fuck you over, kill you, fuck your corpse, and then make sure it gets away with it?

When did I defend them?

TheRock1525 posted...

BTW a Fox News poll showed Biden up 5 in Ohio, 50-45.

I can't believe Ohio is a coin flip state now. Didn't Trump take it by double figures in 2016?

But Obama carried it twice. GWB beat Kerry there by just 100k votes or so. It's only seen as not a swing state anymore because Trump did very well there in 2016, but that's just one election.

---

Leafeon13N posted...

When did I defend them?

Literally the entire last time we had this discussion and now you're still trying to deflect.

---