Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 318: Markey Matchup

(+) Yeah! (+)

FFDragon posted...

Never never never never never never never call the police

ftfy

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Obamacare passing as it did with a filibuster proof Senate majority is the democratic party failing the American public.

Full stop, no regrets saying it this way.

Fuck Joe Lieberman and his ilk with a rusty spork, basically.

banananor posted...

> It's not like the Democrats have done much more for them on economic issues than the Republicans have for the last few decades

Health care and social security don't count? The aca in particular is recent and huge and broken down along party lines

The ACA is the only big exception since the '60s, but it's not a great proof of how much better the Democrats are. Health care is still ridiculously expensive, and the improvements we got took a once-in-a-generation supermajority that accomplished nothing else (except for bailing out the rich people who blew up the economy, of course). But anyway, doing one thing for the poor isn't enough to overshadow everything they've done that ended up hurting the poor.
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Xeybozn posted...

The ACA is the only big exception since the '60s, but it's not a great proof of how much better the Democrats are. Health care is still ridiculously expensive, and the improvements we got took a once-in-a-generation supermajority that accomplished nothing else (except for bailing out the rich people who blew up the economy, of course). But anyway, doing one thing for the poor isn't enough to overshadow everything they've done that ended up hurting the poor.

On the other hand, the only way we're going to do better is to empower the democratic side of things and do what is being done now, slowly replace those democrats with far more progressive democrats. If Hillary had won in 2016, for example, Bernie would have had MAJOR influence in policy discussions because his wing of the party is, no matter how bitter a pill, the future of the democratic party in America.

But I have empathy for people who have given up on the process because the process can really fucking suck.

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I don't think it's paranoia to suspect that the president who has used his office to publicly try to undermine faith in the 2020 election; publicly stated that he deserves a 3rd term in 2024 in defiance of the Constitution; instigated changes to the postal service causing delays prior to the election which necessitates the largest mail-in voting effort in history; and encouraged his supporters to commit felony voter fraud--just maybe might not have a great deal of respect for the democratic process.
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Nah listening to the actual words that come out of the president's mouth is sensationalism

Inviso posted...

We've seen them take up arms against protestors, inciting violence to turn peaceful protests into riots so that the protests appear violent and worth exerting armed force to quell them. The police ARE the government there.

Lmfao. Yeah, I am sure that was a good retelling of those events.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

This has nothing to do with them and everything to do with looking at Trump's actions tbh.

It's fearmongering. It is done over and over and nothing ever comes out of it. Remember the Supreme Court? Omg gay people will be banned and abortions banned and yadda yadda yadda. Nope.

It's done on every last single angle. To the point that if there ever was a valid one it is eyerolled at due to the other however many cries of wolf.


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Mr Lasastryke posted...

i love how you always bitch about basic common sense responses to trump's bullshit being "so extreme" (in a topic where you dismiss the concept of war crimes as "nonsense" and defend slavery, i might add).

trump is literally encouraging voters to commit voter fraud. "wow how can you say democracy in danger with trump being president wahhhh so extreme."

Neither ever happened and only further illustrates my point that you guys are so extreme, hyperbolic, and talk like sensationalized headlines.

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Corrik7 posted...

It's fearmongering. It is done over and over and nothing ever comes out of it. Remember the Supreme Court? Omg gay people will be banned and abortions banned and yadda yadda yadda. Nope.

It's done on every last single angle. To the point that if there ever was a valid one it is eyerolled at due to the other however many cries of wolf.

No, that's not how reality works. You examine things based off a person's actions not how people may look at it. Sure someone can over react a lot but if you're looking at the person then you don't care. Like when people said Bernie was sexist against Hillary for example, I laughed. Because it is obviously bullshit. When people say Trump is acting like a fascist I can look at that too and go "well, no this time they have a point."

Allowing your point of view to be changed by how other people act is basically exactly what it means to be a sheep. A contrarian sheep, but still.

Also as someone who is very much for LGBTQ rights I made it a point that those rights were probably mostly safe under Trump because it would be extremely messy to back track on those and also Roberts cares about his legacy and isn't completely stupid. Now mind you Trump's minions have tried their best to make life difficult for some in the LGBTQ community but that's been mostly standard fare.

I never shared those specific concerns though.

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Corrik7 posted...

Neither ever happened and only further illustrates my point that you guys are so extreme, hyperbolic, and talk like sensationalized headlines.

Corrik7 posted...

You are going to spout some stupid war crime nonsense that applies to every last president that ever existed

ok

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You also know it is ok to want a President that isn't a war criminal, right?

Maybe someday.

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Corrik you literally said that slaves shouldn't escape their masters because it was against the law then.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Maybe someday.

AOC 2032!

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

ok

Your comment in your post and what you quoted from me are two different things.

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PerfectChaosZ posted...

Corrik you literally said that slaves shouldn't escape their masters because it was against the law then.

I don't think he said that. I think he said the law could not apply to slaves because it expressly did not give them the rights of persons - so how could they break the law?

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Corrik7 posted...

Your comment in your post and what you quoted from me are two different things.

so war crimes exist but none of the US presidents have ever committed a war crime? is that what you're arguing?

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red sox 777 posted...

I don't think he said that. I think he said the law could not apply to slaves because it expressly did not give them the rights of persons - so how could they break the law?

I said they shouldn't have had to make the choice and people who had rights to vote should have voted to remove that choice from them. That there is a good argument that as not considered citizens the laws did not apply to them also. I said I wouldn't have supported burning down properties or assaulting people or rioting or etc in regards to it, but I think society should have voted in favor of removing it.

By supporting slaves escaping you were in fact supporting putting slaves in a situation where they might face the repercussions by having to make that choice. When you could have spared them those possible repercussions by changing the law yourselves. You put the onus on those who could face severe repercussions and keep your hands clean.

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

so war crimes exist but none of the US presidents have ever committed a war crime? is that what you're arguing?

Presidents haven't committed war crimes, yes. War crimes have and do exist and should be punished accordingly. Though, the line between war crimes and war in general is a very vague line understandably due to the nature of war.

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Corrik7 posted...

I said they shouldn't have had to make the choice and people who had rights to vote should have voted to remove that choice from them. That there is a good argument that as not considered citizens the laws did not apply to them also. I said I wouldn't have supported burning down properties or assaulting people or rioting or etc in regards to it, but I think society should have voted in favor of removing it.

By supporting slaves escaping you were in fact supporting putting slaves in a situation where they might face the repercussions by having to make that choice. When you could have spared them those possible repercussions by changing the law yourselves. You put the onus on those who could face severe repercussions and keep your hands clean.

So you mean like current America where school shootings and mass shootings happen regularly and nothing is done to prevent it?

Yes, we should all vote and have a perfect country but if that doesn't happen...!

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

No, that's not how reality works. You examine things based off a person's actions not how people may look at it. Sure someone can over react a lot but if you're looking at the person then you don't care. Like when people said Bernie was sexist against Hillary for example, I laughed. Because it is obviously bullshit. When people say Trump is acting like a fascist I can look at that too and go "well, no this time they have a point."

Allowing your point of view to be changed by how other people act is basically exactly what it means to be a sheep. A contrarian sheep, but still.

Also as someone who is very much for LGBTQ rights I made it a point that those rights were probably mostly safe under Trump because it would be extremely messy to back track on those and also Roberts cares about his legacy and isn't completely stupid. Now mind you Trump's minions have tried their best to make life difficult for some in the LGBTQ community but that's been mostly standard fare.

I never shared those specific concerns though.

It's everything, bud. Not just Trump. Republicans are a death cult. They are killing people in the streets. They are yadda yadda. Like everything is so extreme and hyperbolic. It isn't... Hey, I disagree with their medical insurance ideas and think it could make more fall through the cracks causing more hardship on people. It's OMG THEY ARE LITERALLY KILLING PEOPLE IN THE STREETS. THE BLOOD IS ON THEIR HANDS. I DUNNO HOW PEOPLE CAN SEE THIS EVIL AND SLEEP AT NIGHT KNOWING THEY ARE KILLING PEOPLE. Shit is dumb and it is why people don't take possibly legitimate stuff normal because everything in the world has to be so extreme and sensationalized.

OMG THE PRESIDENT IS LITERALLY ROUNDING UP KIDS AND CAGING THEM LIKE ANIMALS JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE FOREIGNERS. THE BIGOTED PIG IS TRYING TO CREATE CONCENTRATION CAMPS NOW!

Instead of, I disagree that children should be separated from their parents in cases where their parents have been detained from illegally crossing the border. I believe they should be released to someone that is a relative or such. If one doesn't exist, I would like to see them kept with their parents.

Now, that is something you can legitimately debate. When you do the nonsense extreme crap, it is A. Think you are an idiot or B. Think you are an extremist or C. Roll your eyes because you know you simply cannot have a discussion with that person because they are just going to call you names when you debate the points.

It is the same thing with almost every police shooting. Yinz gloss over or omit half the facts or situation just to get to your OMG THEY ARE KILLING PEOPLE IN THE STREETS. ALL COPS ARE BASTARDS. DEFUND THE POLICE. FUCK THE PIGS. Etc etc. Like, take a breath. Present the facts. And debate your side. When you just do this screaming the extreme over and over, it makes legitimate things go uncared for.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

So you mean like current America where school shootings and mass shootings happen regularly and nothing is done to prevent it?

Yes, we should all vote and have a perfect country but if that doesn't happen...!

Yes, Chris. We shouldn't go commit crime because we are unhappy with gun laws. If you feel gun laws are the problem, you should be working to overtake the governorships of 75% of the states and amending the constitution. And/or arguably making gun bans on the Legislative level, though it could be up for Judicial review based on the constitution.

The answer isn't hey let's go out and hunt gun owners and assault them until they know why guns shouldn't be allowed! It doesn't support your cause, Chris. It drives more away from it and makes your cause lose legs.

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yes corrik we're all so extreme and unreasonable and dismissive. we don't deserve your infinite wisdom and debating talent, really.


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Corrik7 posted...

Yes, Chris. We shouldn't go commit crime because we are unhappy with gun laws. If you feel gun laws are the problem, you should be working to overtake the governorships of 75% of the states and amending the constitution. And/or arguably making gun bans on the Legislative level, though it could be up for Judicial review based on the constitution.

The answer isn't hey let's go out and hunt gun owners and assault them until they know why guns shouldn't be allowed! It doesn't support your cause, Chris. It drives more away from it and makes your cause lose legs.

Literally no one is making that second argument. NOW who's being hyperbolic for no reason?

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Corrik7 posted...

It's everything, bud. Not just Trump. Republicans are a death cult. They are killing people in the streets. They are yadda yadda. Like everything is so extreme and hyperbolic. It isn't... Hey, I disagree with their medical insurance ideas and think it could make more fall through the cracks causing more hardship on people. It's OMG THEY ARE LITERALLY KILLING PEOPLE IN THE STREETS. THE BLOOD IS ON THEIR HANDS. I DUNNO HOW PEOPLE CAN SEE THIS EVIL AND SLEEP AT NIGHT KNOWING THEY ARE KILLING PEOPLE. Shit is dumb and it is why people don't take possibly legitimate stuff normal because everything in the world has to be so extreme and sensationalized.

OMG THE PRESIDENT IS LITERALLY ROUNDING UP KIDS AND CAGING THEM LIKE ANIMALS JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE FOREIGNERS. THE BIGOTED PIG IS TRYING TO CREATE CONCENTRATION CAMPS NOW!

Instead of, I disagree that children should be separated from their parents in cases where their parents have been detained from illegally crossing the border. I believe they should be released to someone that is a relative or such. If one doesn't exist, I would like to see them kept with their parents.

Now, that is something you can legitimately debate. When you do the nonsense extreme crap, it is A. Think you are an idiot or B. Think you are an extremist or C. Roll your eyes because you know you simply cannot have a discussion with that person because they are just going to call you names when you debate the points.

It is the same thing with almost every police shooting. Yinz gloss over or omit half the facts or situation just to get to your OMG THEY ARE KILLING PEOPLE IN THE STREETS. ALL COPS ARE BASTARDS. DEFUND THE POLICE. FUCK THE PIGS. Etc etc. Like, take a breath. Present the facts. And debate your side. When you just do this screaming the extreme over and over, it makes legitimate things go uncared for.

I mean when we say 'death cult' Trump got people to inject or drink bleach so much officials in Texas had to have a PSA to ask them to stop.

Also plenty of people say it in many different ways, but frankly to some of those specific points I am not going to ask someone to 'be nice' about keeping kids in cages. I don't have to shout about it, but if someone feels like shouting about that it is pretty fair. People are still people, regardless if they are our citizens. It doesn't mean we have to exalt them above others but basic human decency is high on my list of things to get right.

I disagree with the language that all cops are bastards for example, for sure as anything that is not nuanced is just not going to help, but also when I see a lot of accounts of good cops being fired for reporting corruption... the saying is 'a few bad apples ruins the bunch' really seems to apply there.

Plus this is a pretty casual topic where I think half of people just come in here to vent, this doesn't mean you don't have an obligation if you want to say these things to look at the facts and not how they are being presented.

Trump's mishandling of COVID-19, his apparent USPS issue, and in general his many attempts to call into question the election should he lose are all horrible and don't really need commentary.

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Inviso posted...

Literally no one is making that second argument. NOW who's being hyperbolic for no reason?

It wasn't me quoting an example here. It was me saying violence doesn't solve violence. Just threw out a random example. No one to my knowledge is hunting gun owners in this topic or elsewhere, Inviso.

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It's not an example if it never happened, it's hyperbole. People doing the rounding up of kids and putting them in cages have literally called them concentration camps. But it's sensationalist when we repeat the words they actually say, but when it's you coming up with something out of nowhere it's an "example".

In fairness to Corrik he means hypothetical and isn't very good with words, but also in fairness he did just make a point about hyperbole and used the wrong word so ROAST 'EM

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I head Corrik has the best words. Words no one ever knew before he started using them.

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You head Corrik huh.

Thine own sword has impaled you.

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ow my bones

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PerfectChaosZ posted...

It's not an example if it never happened, it's hyperbole. People doing the rounding up of kids and putting them in cages have literally called them concentration camps. But it's sensationalist when we repeat the words they actually say, but when it's you coming up with something out of nowhere it's an "example".

Yeah. If it makes you feel better, remove that phrasing and put *random generic example of violent crime*. Glad we resolved this amicably. Though, of course, it is not lost on me this is just yinz refusing to look at what I am saying and instead project it onto me now in a defense mechanism to avoid self-reflection.

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it's a miracle corrik even keeps posting here. how can any sane person deal with this bunch of extremist idiots who are incapable of having a modicum of self-reflection?

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It is my lovely demeanor.

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

it's a miracle corrik even keeps posting here. how can any sane person deal with this bunch of extremist idiots who are incapable of having a modicum of self-reflection?

I enjoy seeing the opposing views and using them to challenge my own beliefs and whether my beliefs have room for change. It is why I browse resetera every day and here, while NeoGAF which is more centered is less viewed by me despite me being a member there.

Most times the opposing views reinforce my beliefs due to how extreme and nonsensical they are. Every once in awhile, a view that is well argued logically can change my view on things. I have come around a lot on gun reform. Granted, it is self-centered as I myself don't approve of guns too much.

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

it's a miracle corrik even keeps posting here. how can any sane person deal with this bunch of extremist idiots who are incapable of having a modicum of self-reflection?

You guys keep wasting your lives and credibility by continuing to engage him, so only yourselves to blame!

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

But I have empathy for people who have given up on the process because the process can really fucking suck.

The process sucks, but the process sucks in part because people have given up on it.

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Corrik7 posted...

The answer isn't hey let's go out and hunt gun owners and assault them until they know why guns shouldn't be allowed! It doesn't support your cause, Chris. It drives more away from it and makes your cause lose legs.

How do you know? Have you tried it? Why trust those experts they've probably lied to you before. They don't have any credibility. It might just be the answer why not try it.

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red13n posted...

How do you know? Have you tried it? Why trust those experts they've probably lied to you before. They don't have any credibility. It might just be the answer why not try it.

Because the normal person doesn't support violence. It is as simple as that. You have two sides trying to prove why the other side is a piece of shit or a moron instead of trying to talk to the other person and bring them to their side. Many of you don't want Republicans to join your side and vote with you, and vice versa, you want the other side to know why you are superior and they are idiots, and again vice versa.

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Corrik7 posted...

Because the normal person doesn't support violence.

source on this?

I think its wrong and normal people support violence.

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human history suggests violence is our default setting

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red13n posted...

source on this?

I think its wrong and normal people support violence.

Well, that says a lot about you I guess.

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Corrik7 posted...

I enjoy seeing the opposing views and using them to challenge my own beliefs and whether my beliefs have room for change. It is why I browse resetera every day and here, while NeoGAF which is more centered is less viewed by me despite me being a member there.

Most times the opposing views reinforce my beliefs due to how extreme and nonsensical they are. Every once in awhile, a view that is well argued logically can change my view on things. I have come around a lot on gun reform. Granted, it is self-centered as I myself don't approve of guns too much.

bullshit. you never give serious consideration to views that challenge your own beliefs. like i've said before, the only reason you're here is to continuously tell us how you, as an ENLIGHTENED CENTRIST, are so superior to us extremist leftist crazies. pretty much all the posts you've made in this topic since post #334 are ample evidence of this.

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

bullshit. you never give serious consideration to views that challenge your own beliefs. like i've said before, the only reason you're here is to continuously tell us how you, as an ENLIGHTENED CENTRIST, are so superior to us extremist leftist crazies. pretty much all the posts you've made in this topic since post #334 are ample evidence of this.

Thanks for your opinion, bud. Yeah, I do believe being able to pick and choose what I support regardless of political bias and stance is important in a flawed 2 party system.

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it's not my opinion, it's a factual statement.

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If it also makes you feel better, Lasa. I have been called a contrarian many times also. That I like to challenge people on what they say that I disagree on and tend to fall silent when I agree with them. Thus, people find me abrasive and as argumentative.

I find that probably pretty accurate. It is why both the right and left tend to argue with me on things and always accuse me of being the opposite of them.

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https://twitter.com/ParkerMolloy/status/1301540686521667585?s=09

Trump trying to make his base sick(er) confirmed.

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Corrik7 posted...

Well, that says a lot about you I guess.

I mean, you support violence regularly in this topic. It's just you think that it's "legal" and therefore okay.

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FFDragon posted...

https://twitter.com/ParkerMolloy/status/1301540686521667585?s=09

Trump trying to make his base sick(er) confirmed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TrumpCriticizesTrump/

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For all the hand-wringing about the protests and how they're going to help Trump. The data has not, and has never, reflected that.

https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1301527711400316928

CNN poll has Biden+6 on "keep Americans safe from harm."
Fox News poll in Wisconsin has Biden 47-42 on handling of "policing and criminal justice"

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