Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 313: August and Everything After

(+) Yeah! (+)

red sox 777 posted...

Trump is going to look good out of this, when he issues executive orders doing what Congress can't agree to. But it's really bad for the country long-term. The President should not be able to rule by fiat, like an absolute monarch.

Dude you have literally advocated for him to act as a monarch in this topic series, many times. You never cared about our institutions before. When did you suddenly start?

I'm sorry I'm quoting Red Sox for you guys who have him blocked but even I'm getting sick of his inane crap as someone who usually lurks this topic.

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Quoting him means they don't see your post if they have him blocked these days, so people actually prefer it now if you quote.
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My wife works as the Safety Awareness Specialist for the USPS at Postal Headquarters in Washington DC, and has worked for the USPS for almost 20 years.

She's educated me that yesterday's shake up by DeJoy is actually good for the Post Office. Previously, the PMG was only a figurehead, and the structure of the Post Office was a bit archaic. There were 7 Districts within the Post Office, and he is restructuring it to 4 Districts, which is where most of these displaced officials are going. He's removing excessive leadership and simplifying the overall structure.

The increase in stamp cost is something that was supposed to always be in place and was an oversight. Government mail must always be mailed at the first class rate. Also, this is States mailing to voters which increases revenue to the USPS. Voters will have the prepaid envelopes with their ballots and don't pay postage.

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BakusaiTenketsu posted...

Government mail must always be mailed at the first class rate.

This statement in particular is blatantly wrong. I'm going to give your wife the benefit of the doubt and assume you misinterpreted a simplified explanation about the situation at hand, but it's not hard to confirm that the government doesn't always use first-class mail for everything.

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kevwaffles posted...

This statement in particular is blatantly wrong. I'm going to give your wife the benefit of the doubt and assume you misinterpreted a simplified explanation about the situation at hand, but it's not hard to confirm that the government doesn't always use first-class mail for everything.

He didn't say they always use first-class mail. He said they are supposed to and weren't.

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In order to make sure I understood correctly I reaffirmed with her. Political mail, mail that is used by and for the government, can never be sent with bulk mail at bulk mail rates, and therefore must be mailed using the first class rate.

I'd trust her with any information in regards to mail rules and regulations.

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Not to distrust your wife but considering this PMG is batting 0 for a billion in being helpful I have my doubts. We will see how this one shakes out.

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Well this particular move is going to make money for the post office, which it desperately needs, and voters don't pay for it, states do.

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BakusaiTenketsu posted...

Well this particular move is going to make money for the post office, which it desperately needs, and voters don't pay for it, states do.

Ok so your wife and I are worried about far different things. Because the post office has been funded but treasury just won't hand over the money and also the only reason why the post office has any problems is because they have to pay 75 years of pension in advance due to law fuckery. So make the post office more money, despite it being a public utility, means screwing over people who rely on it being efficient.

Source: small business owner here, usps is a disaster and its solvency is the least of its issues and is a politically motivated one.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Ok so your wife and I are worried about far different things. Because the post office has been funded but treasury just won't hand over the money and also the only reason why the post office has any problems is because they have to pay 75 years of pension in advance due to law fuckery. So make the post office more money, despite it being a public utility, means screwing over people who rely on it being efficient.

Source: small business owner here, usps is a disaster and its solvency is the least of its issues and is a politically motivated one.

The USPS runs entirely on the income it receives from mailing parcels, so I could be me misunderstanding some weird wording in this paragraph, but the treasury isnt supposed to be giving them anything.

(yes the pre-paying pensions is bs, but increasing the cost to states of mailing government mail doesnt really affect that.)

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Corrik7 posted...

He didn't say they always use first-class mail. He said they are supposed to and weren't.

JFC, do you really think they overlooked it for absolutely all types of government mail for basically the entire existence of the USPS and just now noticed it? Because that's the only reason for you to chime in with this.

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Why aren't we just bailing out USPS? It's not that hard. We have literally just thrown money at every business, especially ones that don't need it right now. Give money to USPS. It only makes sense.

I'm willing to play hard ball and demand that USPS doesn't get any more money unless they force all of their delivery people to have to take a course on what "Last Pick Up" means and how it's not 15+ minutes before the time listed though.

(For real I've almost gone to war with people who pick up the mail at mail boxes with my job.)

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So maybe I have more of a direct knowledge of this as this heavily effects me, so let me back up a step.

I don't care about the mailing government thing.

The issue at hand is USPS has been failing their job a lot recently. Priority mail is sometimes taking 3-4 weeks to reach its destination and often times it is not properly scanned (so it looks like it was never shipped until it literally arrives) because of the shake ups at USPS. "cost cutting measures" is order to pay for itself involve drastically harming the reliability of mail. Parcels alone have not been enough, and also USPS was given money as part of a bill passed due to COVID tony.

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Why aren't we just bailing out USPS? It's not that hard. We have literally just thrown money at every business, especially ones that don't need it right now. Give money to USPS. It only makes sense.

I'm willing to play hard ball and demand that USPS doesn't get any more money unless they force all of their delivery people to have to take a course on what "Last Pick Up" means and how it's not 15+ minutes before the time listed though.

(For real I've almost gone to war with people who pick up the mail at mail boxes with my job.)

Because Republicans are trying to make it private. It doesn't need to be bailed out, they just need to not have to pay their pension 75 years in advance lol

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BakusaiTenketsu posted...

Well this particular move is going to make money for the post office, which it desperately needs, and voters don't pay for it, states do.

See, I think you're looking at this in a vacuum in which this move may not seem objectionable on its face but when you take it in the broader context of what the GOP is doing there's a clear pattern and intent.

The GOP has steadfastly refused to: give sufficient aid to states wrt the pandemic, give sufficient funding (or just not outright try to sabotage) to USPS, and give sufficient funding for elections.

Now each prong of that has a myriad of reasons why the GOP is doing this (cruelty, trying to privatize mail services, lack of interest in securing democratic processes as their ability to actually win them fairly slips further, etc.) however there is also a through-line that connects the three - trying to hamper vote by mail.

They have explicitly objected to additional funding for election security for, among other reasons, belief that it'll encourage states to expand vote by mail. Their attempts to kill USPS are pretty self-explanatory on how this would hurt it as well. However, their reluctance to help the states is the insidious factor here. Unlike the federal government which can run deficits as much as they like, the states are not allowed to do so. And, unsurprisingly, a pandemic incurs a lot of costs on them. Since the Trump Administration has decided to basically go "it's on the states to handle this" at best, and bid against them causing price hikes on supplies at worst, state budgets have gotten especially hammered. A sane, compassionate federal government would... y'know... help them out with the cost. Instead states are being forced to make draconian cuts in order to keep the budget balanced. It'd be tough for them to handle vote-by-mail expenses normally in this environment, but with the USPS upping the rates (whether it "should be" or not) and an election where vote-by-mail is expected to be at its biggest because of the pandemic... states will either have to make even deeper cuts in other areas or downsize vote-by-mail because they can't afford it. Which I mean, is all according to plan for the GOP given their stances and statements.

tl;dr: Yes, the USPS needs money, that's not at debate. But so do the states! This is the federal government pitting two groups that they're intentionally starving of resources against one another while they're just sitting back running up deficits well beyond what we've seen but somehow in all that can't find the money to help them both out but can for tax cuts for the rich.

States and the USPS should be getting aid from the federal government. Hell, just removing the blatant sabotage of the USPS having the unique requirement to pre-fund pensions 50 years in advance (edit: oh is it 75? whatever it's absurd either way and was only inserted recently to try and kill the postal service) which is the sole cause of their budget issues would help. But the GOP doesn't want to do that because they're genuinely trying to sabotage here.

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Also the GOP is trying to get Kanye on ballots in states just to delay and challenge vote in mailing by the way. If mailing doesn't have Kanye on ballots they will want those thrown out etc.

Basically we can now confirm all of those people who said they had guns to prevent the government from being fascist were in fact just racist/gun nuts, because this is textbook fascism and I mean that as literally as possible.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Also the GOP is trying to get Kanye on ballots in states just to delay and challenge vote in mailing by the way. If mailing doesn't have Kanye on ballots they will want those thrown out etc.

Basically we can now confirm all of those people who said they had guns to prevent the government from being fascist were in fact just racist/gun nuts, because this is textbook fascism and I mean that as literally as possible.

Is this speculation on your part or is there reporting on such a stunt? Ballot access would seem to be pretty clear cut.

The thing I'm more worried about is that like every non-swing state except NC I think (and tons of not-swing states I'm sure) has laws on the books to throw out any mail ballot received after election day even if it was postmarked on/before it.

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kevwaffles posted...

JFC, do you really think they overlooked it for absolutely all types of government mail for basically the entire existence of the USPS and just now noticed it? Because that's the only reason for you to chime in with this.

He literally just said it was an oversight that wasn't realized, and it is supposed to be that way.

You are arguing about something that is extraneous to what he said.

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xp1337 posted...

Is this speculation on your part or is there reporting on such a stunt? Ballot access would seem to be pretty clear cut.

The thing I'm more worried about is that like every non-swing state except NC I think (and tons of not-swing states I'm sure) has laws on the books to throw out any mail ballot received after election day even if it was postmarked on/before it.

Lawyer arguing for Kanye to be added to ballots works for Trump's campaign. So not confirmed but I am just connecting possible evil dots.

but yes your fear is also more top of mind. Honestly there is a whole list.

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See, I'm not as educated on the USPS issue, so thanks for the information! My job actually has a ton to do with USPS but we haven't really had any issues (as far as I know) with our deliveries. We really only mail around California state though. The worst of it is just me wanting to throw hands with the guys who come way earlier than last pick up when I have something time sensitive.

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Corrik7 posted...

He literally just said it was an oversight that wasn't realized, and it is supposed to be that way.

You are arguing about something that is extraneous to what he said.

The particular statement I was disputing was "Government mail must always be mailed at the first class rate." Not only does his overall assertion of this situation being an oversight make far more sense if that statement isn't true, it's pretty simple to look up a past USPS earnings report of mail sent out by local, state, and federal government agencies and see that other postage classes besides First Class are included.

https://www.uspsoig.gov/sites/default/files/document-library-files/2015/ms-ma-15-005.pdf



In other words, you're either just trying to call me wrong while being too chicken-shit to straight up say the words, or you think hundreds of millions of dollars per year spent by the government has been the biggest oversight of all time.

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kevwaffles posted...

The particular statement I was disputing was "Government mail must always be mailed at the first class rate." Not only does his overall assertion of this situation being an oversight make far more sense if that statement isn't true, it's pretty simple to look up a past USPS earnings report of mail sent out by local, state, and federal government agencies and see that other postage classes besides First Class are included.

https://www.uspsoig.gov/sites/default/files/document-library-files/2015/ms-ma-15-005.pdf

Jesus fucking Christ. Are you purposely acting like this.

It would be like saying Men are supposed to never rape a woman. And you going nuh uh! Uh uh! That's not true! I can show you in crime statistics men have actually raped women!

Your argument is extraneous. He said they are supposed to do that. They haven't been doing that. And they are going to how they are supposed to be doing it which causes the rate increase which isn't actually an increase but a move to what it was always supposed to be.

If you wanna argue that is not true, that's fucking fine. Arguing it isn't true because they didn't do what he is saying they are supposed to is fucking braindead because it is extraneous. He is acknowledging they were doing what you are saying.

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Corrik7 posted...

It would be like saying Men are supposed to never rape a woman. And you going nuh uh! Uh uh! That's not true! I can show you in crime statistics men have actually raped women!

Crime statistics are literally a measure of things happened that by all rights shouldn't have. That's why they are crimes.

The fact that you're comparing them to a report of revenue is sad and hilarious.

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Corrik7 posted...

extraneous

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk

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kevwaffles posted...

Crime statistics are literally a measure of things happened that by all rights shouldn't have. That's why they are crimes.

The fact that you're comparing them to a report of revenue is sad and hilarious.

Dude.

This is simple.

He says it is happening.
It is not supposed to happen.
They are gonna stop doing it.

And you are arguing against it saying it is happening.

Which is literally is fucking starting point. Stop.

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Just to get back to talking with someone in at least a slightly productive matter.

BakusaiTenketsu posted...

In order to make sure I understood correctly I reaffirmed with her. Political mail, mail that is used by and for the government, can never be sent with bulk mail at bulk mail rates, and therefore must be mailed using the first class rate.

I'd trust her with any information in regards to mail rules and regulations.

I can repost what I showed to Corrik if you want, but I still think something is either getting lost in translation or has been misinformed here still based on this phrasing.

That's okay, though. Ballots sent to individual voters in particular needing to be First Class is something that makes perfect sense in spite of this. For instance, iirc Standard rate mail doesn't necessarily need to be addressed to a particular person (like how you'll see "Or Current Resident" on a lot of non-First Class mail). It also doesn't get forwarded when you submit a change of address to USPS. Neither of these makes sense if you want to ensure you send a ballot to a particular registered voter.

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My wife yields that some government mail can possibly qualify as bulk mail deliverable, but it would most definitely not include official ballots and would be more on the level of typical bulk mail items (like ads).

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Corrik7 posted...

Dude.

This is simple.

He says it is happening.
It is not supposed to happen.
They are gonna stop doing it.

And you are arguing against it saying it is happening.

Which is literally is fucking starting point. Stop.

So you are saying that not only literally billions of pieces per year of Standard Rate mail sent out by the government for things other than ballots are suddenly going to stop because we discovered the biggest oversight of all time after all these years, but that this hypothetical scenario, which would be a huge news story in and of itself because of the giant shift in government spending that would result, is not being reported on because, reasons???

Try thinking this through more than not at all and explain literally any of this logic. Or just admit that you're sticking to this for literally no reason.

Keep in mind that if the oversight is strictly limited to ballots, then it was just a proposal that never actually happened in the first place, and therefore is pretty much getting the attention it deserves already.

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BakusaiTenketsu posted...

My wife yields that some government mail can possibly qualify as bulk mail deliverable, but it would most definitely not include official ballots and would be more on the level of typical bulk mail items (like ads).

This makes much more sense to me.

Not to derail things too much more than I already have, but out of pure curiosity, can you ask her if she knows or could find out what rate census forms get mailed out? I was trying to look that up but apparently it wasn't information I could find in any way I could think to phrase it.

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kevwaffles posted...

So you are saying that not only literally billions of pieces per year of Standard Rate mail sent out by the government for things other than ballots are suddenly going to stop because we discovered the biggest oversight of all time after all these years, but that this hypothetical scenario, which would be a huge news story in and of itself because of the giant shift in government spending that would result, is not being reported on because, reasons???

Try thinking this through more than not at all and explain literally any of this logic. Or just admit that you're sticking to this for literally no reason.

Keep in mind that if the oversight is strictly limited to ballots, then it was just a proposal that never actually happened in the first place, and therefore is pretty much getting the attention it deserves already.

I am not saying anything regarding that. I am saying what he was saying and why your nuh uh they do it was extraneous.

Your argument for why he was wrong wasn't at any point at odds with what he was saying.

I have zero idea how the USPS is supposed to work. I was just pointing out that your argument didn't actually refute anything because it was acknowledged at the very beginning what you are referring to.

I have no idea if an actual oversight existed or not. Though I think he has changed his assertion some now, it is of course possible that something wasn't being followed to the letter of the law regarding something in the government.

I have zero horse in this race. I was just pointing out why your refuting argument made no logical sense regarding it based on what he said.


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My wife also thinks you guys make for humorous reading and both sides are just looking for an argument that shouldn't really exist and that tweet is just sensationalism of the media at it's finest (and she's a liberal).

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Hi Baku's wife.

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I think there is a good argument for the USPS ceasing to exist in totality. Not even going private, but ceasing to exist.

But, my sense for what the world should be probably is 100 years away at least. So *shrug*.

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USPS ceasing to exist fucks poor people really hard and raises costs substantially among the private delivery services.

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you should ask your wife why mail has been so horrific.


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red13n posted...

USPS ceasing to exist fucks poor people really hard and raises costs substantially among the private delivery services.

In my society, there wouldn't be paper mail at all. In any shape or form. Lol.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

you should ask your wife why mail has been so horrific.

Her answer:
Because employees have been taking time off for COVID-19, and the USPS has federal hiring guidelines which reduces the speed of replenishing it's ranks.

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BakusaiTenketsu posted...

My wife also thinks you guys make for humorous reading and both sides are just looking for an argument that shouldn't really exist and that tweet is just sensationalism of the media at it's finest (and she's a liberal).

No worries. While I mean everything I say here, I am fully aware that when I choose to engage this long in this topic with certain people, it's going to get, at best, extremely inane.
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kevwaffles posted...

No worries. While I mean everything I say here, I am fully aware that when I choose to engage this long in this topic with certain people, it's going to get, at best, extremely inane.

That's what happens when you make arguments that make zero sense.

And I don't say that to bring it back up. It's just like why can none of you just admit you are wrong when wrong? Like, so many of you just double down and try to twist things or deflect repeatedly or ignore things when wrong.

Kamikaze did this with the lynching crap. You did it here. Tony did it.

Incessantly is claims of "disingenuous posting" and "not arguing in good faith" thrown around here when those are prime examples of it. And it goes completely ignored when it isn't "certain people".

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Corrik, you really need to learn that you not understanding something doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense. It means that, well, there's not a nicer way to phrase it than to just leave it at you not understanding it.

Also every claim I made I backed up and the person I was talking to in the first place agrees now that certain exceptions to that original sentence do in fact at least possibly exist. But sure, keep on thinking that I'm the one who can't admit he's wrong.

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kevwaffles posted...

Corrik, you really need to learn that you not understanding something doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense. It means that, well, there's not a nicer way to phrase it than to just leave it at you not understanding it.

Also every claim I made I backed up and the person I was talking to in the first place agrees now that certain exceptions to that original sentence do in fact at least possibly exist. But sure, keep on thinking that I'm the one who can't admit he's wrong.

You didn't understand what I was saying what was wrong with your argument. You were using something he was saying was being done wrong to say that it was right. Like, it's common sense.

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Corrik7 posted...

In my society, there wouldn't be paper mail at all. In any shape or form. Lol.

How would you replace it?
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4 executive orders just announced. $400 a week extra unemployment.

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Jakyl25 posted...

How would you replace it?

Digital.

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Corrik7 posted...

Digital.

What about small businesses like mine that ship product to customers?

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

What about small businesses like mine that ship product to customers?

There are companies that do this.

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https://twitter.com/anitakumar01/status/1292087516292681728?s=21

Completely irredeemable piece of shit.

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