Board 8 > Game of Thrones Season 8: Topic 3 (Spoilers)

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SeabassDebeste posted...

it's just that her "intelligence" has mainly been other people's idiocy so far. Cersei has always been this way too, come to think of it.

This hasn't really been the case. Sansa calling in Littlefinger for the battle of the bastards, and all the subsequent political battling leading to killing Littlefinger, was definitely a difficult challenge that she won on her own merit. And now the battle with Dany is pretty legit and competent (except for Jon).

Cersei has also set up most of her victories herself, often knowing there would be a huge cost like blowing up a church or her children dying. She's just very much more willing to make sacrifices to win the game. Even back when she got Ned killed, it wasn't because anyone else was especially stupid (unless you count the entire world believing Joffrey was legitimately a Baratheon...)
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oh yeah I missed a bunch huh

PerfectChaosZ posted...

oh yeah I missed a bunch huh

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foolm0r0n posted...

Cersei has also set up most of her victories herself, often knowing there would be a huge cost like blowing up a church or her children dying. She's just very much more willing to make sacrifices to win the game. Even back when she got Ned killed, it wasn't because anyone else was especially stupid (unless you count the entire world believing Joffrey was legitimately a Baratheon...)

This is a weird read of Cersei. She never willingly sacrificed a child - that was all completely accidental and her biggest failure. She also never tried to actually have Ned killed. Ned died because no one could control Joffery, also a massive failure on her part because it led directly to the North declaring war. She rolls with the sacrifices once they come but most of them are consequences of her refusal to compromise.
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Yeah, it's weird for people to characterize Cersei as having any priorities beyond her children. That's always been her primary trait, and we've seen how it strengthens her and hinders her.
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definition of prioritizing her kids is questionable though. cersei has full opportunity to flee king's landing when ned offers her mercy. instead she gambles on the throne (and succeeds thanks to littlefinger pulling the strings) but it's a high-risk gambit. she also blows up the sept in self-preservation, killing tommen's wife, whom he clearly loves.
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Why flee King's Landing when your son is king? She wants the best for him. The best for him is to rule. She was raised a Lannister after all... can't remove that context.

Blowing up the Sept was to eliminate her enemies. The... Order?... who was there, and stood to make themselves more important to Tommen than Cersei. Margaery, who stood to replace Cersei as the most important woman to him. While she prioritized her children, part of her deal is helicopter momming. She believes Tommen will be better off with her as his most trusted advisor. And hes the only kid she has left, so shes really overbearing.

"I better not blow up these people who are getting between me and my son because it might cause him to kill himself" is not really a conclusion easily arrived at.
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the final episode end credits need to have little scenes of the different actors humming the theme song, and then a chorus of them for the bigger parts of the arrangement
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

She rolls with the sacrifices once they come but most of them are consequences of her refusal to compromise.

That's what I'm talking about. Obviously she never intends for her kids to die, but she definitely knows they are on the table when she's playing her game. And she refuses to stop playing it, because she cares about power more than her kids. Tommen would have been the only real surprise since that was 100% her fault.

It makes no sense to read Cersei as a terrible monster except she actually values her kids more than anything. That's what Tyrion tried to hit on in the last episode and she clearly told him he was wrong.
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foolm0r0n posted...

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

She rolls with the sacrifices once they come but most of them are consequences of her refusal to compromise.

That's what I'm talking about. Obviously she never intends for her kids to die, but she definitely knows they are on the table when she's playing her game. And she refuses to stop playing it, because she cares about power more than her kids. Tommen would have been the only real surprise since that was 100% her fault.

It makes no sense to read Cersei as a terrible monster except she actually values her kids more than anything. That's what Tyrion tried to hit on in the last episode and she clearly told him he was wrong.

I think a slightly different way to read it is that she has always had a battle in her mind - her children vs. power. Power has played a crucial role in warping her - she was in an abusive relationship with Robert and that defined the sort of control she sought. Power was a way to achieve self-preservation. And since she most valued her children, it was also a way to preserve them. But her understanding of mothering has always been both for and at the expense of children. You could argue this was based on her own breeding, but it's a moot point. She believes that poisoning herself and her child is a sign of love when Stannis comes to town. She has always believed in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

In some ways, you could argue that she is the absolute worst at playing the game. She has the most capital to expend in winning, and she still sits in a position to lose right now. Everyone else has had to work from positions of disadvantage against her. So the fact that she consistently makes decisions that lead to her childrens' deaths might actually be emblematic of this poor understanding. She loved Tommen. She enabled his suicide. Does she really understand and take ownership of that internally? It's hard to say. But killing everyone in the Sept is certainly not the sign of a deft hand in the world of political intrigue. It's the sign of a child lashing out with their biggest weapon.

I think you're point about what Tyrion hit on is interesting in that we still don't actually know that she's pregnant. She's been in a defensive posture all season; hell, she's almost always been in a defensive posture. She wouldn't have slept with Euron otherwise. She still is that abused wife of Robert and that cowed daughter of Tywin, in the end.
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foolm0r0n posted...

That's what I'm talking about. Obviously she never intends for her kids to die, but she definitely knows they are on the table when she's playing her game. And she refuses to stop playing it, because she cares about power more than her kids. Tommen would have been the only real surprise since that was 100% her fault.

It makes no sense to read Cersei as a terrible monster except she actually values her kids more than anything. That's what Tyrion tried to hit on in the last episode and she clearly told him he was wrong.

I don't disagree that she values power. But I think Han is spot on. She is trying to secure her children's safety, the most power for her kids and for herself to be powerful by having the most influence over her kids. Her frustration at not being able to accomplish all three of these things is what motivates her. That's why she views the Tyrells as her enemies even though the Lannisters as a whole are well-positioned with them and Tywin running things. SHE wants to be the Lannister matriarch and rule her family and can't abide other people making decisions about it.

Cersei now is different from Cersei with kids and she only has her hold on power now. But either way she would've been stupid to listen to Tyrion and not think Dany wouldn't just execute her while pregnant. Cersei is naturally paranoid of anyone she views as an enemy.

I guess basically I agree that Cersei values power more than her kids' safety but she herself doesn't see it that way. To her, her kids will never be safe unless they have all the power.
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The Sparrow was definitely a more adept manipulator, it takes a lot to do kidnapping and torture and still claim morality. But like Tyron says at the end of the day power resides with the person who can merely kill the other players.

foolm0r0n posted...

It makes no sense to read Cersei as a terrible monster except she actually values her kids more than anything. That's what Tyrion tried to hit on in the last episode and she clearly told him he was wrong.

That makes total sense though. That's why he says it. It's the idealized version of Cersei. Tyrion's memories of Cersei involve a woman who loves her children beyond everything.

He IS wrong because she isn't that anymore. She doesn't have anything left except for power.

I don't disagree with the dichotomy between children and power/control... but I don't think it's as intentional on her part as your arguments are seemingly portraying it. Like, the "risk the children to gain power" line doesnt make sense.
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HanOfTheNekos posted...

Like, the "risk the children to gain power" line doesnt make sense.

It totally does. Going with the gambling analogy, when Tyrion makes that plea/threat to her, he is raising the stakes to include her unborn child. And she instantly calls the bet, knowing that her 3 other children were killed after calling similar bets.

The alternative is that she's a total idiot with no memory. But then she would be a main protagonist of the show...
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Cersei definitely is kind of an idiot, or at least irrational. From her perspective her kid is as good as dead if she surrenders. That's why as Scarlet pointed out she was willing to poison her children if Stannis won. But the show does a really good job of making Cersei look smarter. She gets to be retroactively right about the Tyrells plotting to kill her kids and the white walkers being a non-issue. Plus Lena Headey is way too good at smirking, it makes it look like she's always winning.
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Well the other thing is you have to remain alive for the unborn child to live. Given how Cersei treats captives, she might not believe that anybody would treat her decently as a captive. And I'm not a parent myself so I don't know but I assume you have greater attachment to a child once its born

But really she's in too deep now. She isn't giving up power for anything. She has already lost everything so there's nothing you can put on the line that would make her change that at this point. She may also firmly believe she's going to win and why wouldn't she?

Obviously she would die if she lost the battle and was captured. But as was mentioned, she had tons of opportunities to take her kids and run. Especially now that she owns the entire sea, and has neutered the dragons. If she just wanted to raise her new kid, she could easily go off and do that. That's what Tyrion was pleading for. But she doesn't care at all about just being a mother, she needs to be mother of the king.

ShatteredElysium posted...

She may also firmly believe she's going to win and why wouldn't she?

Because if her kids' survival is victory, she has lost 3/3 times so far. If acquisition of power is her true goal, then yes she has good reason to believe she will continue to win.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

I think you're point about what Tyrion hit on is interesting in that we still don't actually know that she's pregnant.

This is true I guess. That could be why she didn't take the threat to her child seriously. But I thought they implied pretty strongly that it's Jamie's kid again.
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foolm0r0n posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

I think you're point about what Tyrion hit on is interesting in that we still don't actually know that she's pregnant.

This is true I guess. That could be why she didn't take the threat to her child seriously. But I thought they implied pretty strongly that it's Jamie's kid again.

She implied it, but I guess, for me, the duplicity of a character like Cersei means that, until she is showing, she isn't necessarily pregnant.
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Judging by how Robert treated every last Targ including the kids its not really stupid to think that if she loses every possible heir to the throne would be killed.

foolm0r0n posted...

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Like, the "risk the children to gain power" line doesnt make sense.

It totally does. Going with the gambling analogy, when Tyrion makes that plea/threat to her, he is raising the stakes to include her unborn child. And she instantly calls the bet, knowing that her 3 other children were killed after calling similar bets.

The alternative is that she's a total idiot with no memory. But then she would be a main protagonist of the show...

Still not a good read of the scenario. I think my issue is that children are not the only chips, and I don't think it makes sense for Cersei to consider them as a wager throughout this.

But im curious how you push this same binary onto her other children.
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Also, let me clarify from my earlier statement. When I say children are her highest priority, I dont mean they are her only priority/only important priority. The most important thing to Cersei was her children. But they weren't the only important thing.

Part of Cersei's allure as a character is in her self sabotage. She makes cruel decisions that reflect her personality, but they also have the effect of hurting her because she lacks the proper foresight to take precautionary measures against certain things.
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Every time she fought Margaery, she knew she was hurting Tommen as well, and had to be very careful to make sure he survived the battle. He didn't, because she miscalculated what would happen if she won. Joffrey was used for various things including killing Ned, and she knew this put him at a huge risk. And the girl, literally her only purpose was as a bargaining chip.

The kids don't have to be the only chips for them to be a wager. But if she really didn't want to use her kids in the game, she would have to fold a lot of her bets, which was unacceptable to her. She intentionally used them because the alternative was running off East or something.

I could see the argument that, until Tommen, she thought she was only defending her kids and that to protect them she just needed to win harder. But after her win directly caused Tommen's death, that idea went out the window. So now it seems pretty clear that she cares more about the win than the child.
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Myrcella was never used as a bargaining chip by Cersei. Tyrion sends her to Dorne because it's safer and more politically favorable and Cersei is furious about it. Her relationship with Myrcella is Cersei at maximum overbearing mom. Tommen was about protecting their mom/son relationship and not losing him to Margaery. She makes every effort to protect him, but she was delusional enough to think he'd accept the outcome and choose her.

If you count that as using her kids as pieces in the game, sure. But Cersei is playing with different rules. Everyone else is playing Risk but she's playing Life and planting explosives under the other cars.
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It is funny though because Tyrion did use Myrcella as a tool to figure out who on the high counsel was more loyal to Cersei.
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https://twitter.com/joemurph/status/1126914759557775360

Given how high Arya is, I'm surprised everything else is so low.
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I'll bet that there were way more Jons though
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Kind of bold to name your kid after a character in a fictional series that hasn't ended yet. They didn't know how all these character arcs were going to wrap up.

"Theon? You mean that guy that during the last season went crazy and had sex with all those corpses?"

"Ya well the story wasn't over yet and when they named me that he was just a dickiess coward who fled when his sister was getting captured."

Also probably don't name your son after a guy who was made a eunuch (and then some). They're never going to hear the end of that.
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I mean it doesn't surprise me given how many people name themselves after characters from shows/games in online games.

I named my first kid Grey Worm
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Mad queen imminent
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Uhh so dany can just inexplicably dodge the arrows now...?
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Yowza
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They are literally reusing those shots of people turning corners around the alleys
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Lol Euron/Jaime casual coincidence we're both here!
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Ahaha this show is so directionless
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Danish Civil War
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CLEGANEBOWL

!!

The
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Lmfaoooo qyburn

Ok maybe cleganbowl can salvage this dumpster fire
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So the mountain is nemesis
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..... The Disney Death huh?

Well that was not the ending to CLEGANEBOWL I wanted, but it is the one I somewhat expected.

That's a yikes from me
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At least cleganebowl had major story consequences!
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ExTha's gonna be pisssssed
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Also what was the point of having an army if a single dragon can just level an entire city with flames that can instantly crumble a stone building that's been around since the days of dragons?
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What a bad show.
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They're just fucking with us with Arya's plot armor and horse ex machina right?
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I just do not know how D&D fucked this all up so badly
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I was like 90% positive that Arya had died and the horse was a metaphor for her riding to the afterlife.

Whoops.

Good god that was AWFUL
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Wait, what problem are people having NOW? That was great.
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